Ugh.

TheMrsC23

Dear Prudence,
I'm a grandfather with a 4-year-old grandson who is smart and engaging, but who frequently throws tantrums when frustrated. My daughter-in-law’s mother cares for him during the day while she and my son are at work. Several times a month I pick him up from her house so he and I can spend time together. Usually I feed him lunch, but the other day he refused to eat. When I took him back to his grandmother's house, he immediately announced he was hungry. She said it wasn't snack time for another hour and he should have eaten at my house. He launched into a fit, which escalated into a shouting match between the two of them. She put him in time out then made him drink sips of vinegar until he stopped screaming, which I believe is a method she used with her own numerous offspring when they were young. When I went to say goodbye he was huddled in a corner, mouth reddened from vinegar, shuddering and whimpering "I want to go home." I am deeply disturbed by the whole incident, and feel I should have done something, but I don't know what. I also don't how to raise the incident with my son or daughter-in-law. Unfortunately, I have a feeling they will say the grandmother handled the incident appropriately. Please weigh in.

—Distressed Grandfather

Wzz

so instead of telling the kid's parents, he wrote a letter? okay.

poor kid.

baconsmom

How does one's mouth get red from vinegar? I'm so confused by using this as a disciplinary method - we love vinegar around here. It's delicious. 

But nobody's handling the tantrums properly. 4-y-olds do throw them when frustrated (hell, I've been known to throw one when frustrated), and you just have to send them to their rooms and ignore it. It'll blow over. 

AuntFlo

Sounds like normal 4 year old behaviour to me.  I've never heard of the vinegar punishment, but I might consider putting that one to use.  (I'm getting desperate.)

AuntFlo

Oh - and regarding the red mouth - maybe she was giving him Basalmic vinegar?

hmonkey

maybe from the acid.

and it's possible for a kid to dislime being forcefed something, regardless of what it is.  pissed off at any age, baconsmom.

6fsn

I don't understand him just standing there and not even bringing it up to  the parents.

TheMrsC23

Also, I hate when people are weird about food 'schedules'.  

If my kids are hungry, we let them eat.  I mean, if the kiddo wants a snack and we're eating in 10min, that's one thing.  But if I'm not preparing a meal or food and they want to eat, they can eat.  

AuntFlo

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_ugh-16?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:7a3ec3fa-2bd5-4e66-87c8-5c9be8652898Post:e4484b6a-6e90-41bc-b44c-42036341db44">Re: Ugh.</a>:
[QUOTE]Also, I hate when people are weird about food 'schedules'.   If my kids are hungry, we let them eat.  I mean, if the kiddo wants a snack and we're eating in 10min, that's one thing.  But if I'm not preparing a meal or food and they want to eat, they can eat.  
Posted by TheMrsC23[/QUOTE]

<div>At 2 or 3 years old, that's one thing.  But when they are 4 or 5 - I disagree with you.  You have to start putting your foot down on when they can and can't eat. </div>

VarunaTT

Using food as punishment is just wrong.  

TheMrsC23

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_ugh-16?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:7a3ec3fa-2bd5-4e66-87c8-5c9be8652898Post:d66495a0-9841-4b08-bc55-e82d2f8c3837">Re: Ugh.</a>:
[QUOTE]Using food as punishment is just wrong.  
Posted by VarunaTT[/QUOTE]

<div>Yes. </div><div>
</div><div>And I cut DefConn's snacking off all the time.  </div><div>
</div><div>But I don't tell him (or the kiddo), "You're scheduled to eat in an hour.  Tough crap until then kids." </div>

AuntFlo

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_ugh-16?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:7a3ec3fa-2bd5-4e66-87c8-5c9be8652898Post:d66495a0-9841-4b08-bc55-e82d2f8c3837">Re: Ugh.</a>:
[QUOTE]Using food as punishment is just wrong.  
Posted by VarunaTT[/QUOTE]

<div>Agreed - assuming you're talking about the vinegar punishment.   If you're talking about training your kid to eat on a schedule, I don't consider that punishment.  </div>

Heffalump

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_ugh-16?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:47Discussion:7a3ec3fa-2bd5-4e66-87c8-5c9be8652898Post:517f3d8c-f10e-4643-94b6-4422335557b7">Re: Ugh.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ugh. : Yes.  And I cut DefConn's snacking off all the time.   But I don't tell him (or the kiddo), "You're scheduled to eat in an hour.  Tough crap until then kids." 
Posted by TheMrsC23[/QUOTE]

Exactly.  If I'm making dinner and DD wants a snack, too bad, tough it out for 15 min.  But if she isn't hungry at lunch and then she's hungry at 3:00 (like the kid in the letter), I give her something to eat.  I don't get into a screaming match with her or make her drink vinegar.  WTF is with the grandmother (and the letter writing grandfather)?

Although, I am also in Bmom's camp--I've confessed to sipping balsamic vinegar on here before.  Mmmmmmm.

baconsmom

Well, obviously she shouldn't be force feeding it. I just don't get it. Hot sauce? Sure, that makes sense as discipline, though it's nothing I would ever use. Vinegar just sounds - I dunno, like there should be a salad following it. Kid's hungry. Let him have the salad. 

VarunaTT

Yes @ the vinegar punishment.

I like some vinegar by itself, but I love a great vinegarette for salads and the like.  This woman is just setting her grandson up to associate what can be a really lovely food experience up to be hated and missed.

I have no opinion re: food schedules, b/c I have no kids upon which evil machinations can be used on.

*Barbie*

the punishment seems bizarre to me - why the vinegar? just give the kid a time out. 

he should have mentioned it to the parents if it bothered him, but if they were aware and approved, then he needs to deal. it's not like she was force feeding the kid bleach. 

i don't see anything wrong with telling the kid he needed to wait to eat, either. if we left it up to Wolverine, she'd snack constantly. she likes healthy stuff, but she needs more structure.

TheMrsC23

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_ugh-16?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:7a3ec3fa-2bd5-4e66-87c8-5c9be8652898Post:0d035db9-fa63-46c5-afb3-da590728db71">Re: Ugh.</a>:
[QUOTE]Well, obviously she shouldn't be force feeding it. I just don't get it. Hot sauce? Sure, that makes sense as discipline, though it's nothing I would ever use. Vinegar just sounds - I dunno, like there should be a salad following it. Kid's hungry<em>. <strong>Let him have the salad. </strong></em>
Posted by baconsmom[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>::gigglesnort::</div><div>
</div><div>And my youngest child would be a-OK with a hot sauce or vinegar punishment.  He LOVES hot or sour stuff.  He's also licked soap before too.  </div><div>
</div><div>He likes to eat and he's not picky.  ;) </div><div>  </div>

AuntFlo

Personally, I hate the smell of vinegar, so this would be more of a punishment for me instead of DD.  :::off to find other forms of punishment:::

DG1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_ugh-16?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:7a3ec3fa-2bd5-4e66-87c8-5c9be8652898Post:517f3d8c-f10e-4643-94b6-4422335557b7">Re: Ugh.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ugh. : Yes.  And I cut DefConn's snacking off all the time.   But I don't tell him (or the kiddo), "You're scheduled to eat in an hour.  Tough crap until then kids." 
Posted by TheMrsC23[/QUOTE]

<div>That bothered me so much. It's one thing if the kid is just being a brat (which would make a time out or a "go to your room" more than OK - one needn't force him to drink acid). But if you know he's tired and hungry? That's not going to teach him anything. And it sounded like the kid wasn't going to get food for several hours. I know how grouchy I am when I'm hungry, and I have a fully-developed adult brain that is much better able to compensate than a 4yo brain. Can't blame him for throwing a tantrum. </div>

Ella and Pedro

I have too many thoughts about this...

a. snacking is the suggested way in which people train their metabolism to constantly burn calories, which is to say, for most humans (big or little) a healthy choice - assuming healthy snacks

b. associating food with behavior can lead to eating disorders, whether it be rewarding (associating 'sugary food' with making someone feel better can lead to someone who eats candy or ice cream when they are upset) or if it be punishment (as someone mentioned above, now vinegar is not about salad dressing but a bad experience and a bad association, thereby making the taste of salad dressing/salad seem totally unappealing)

c. the grandfather senses this is abusive but does not know  how to approach it because it's 'outside the box' of how we as a society tend to define abuse....I feel badly for him, and moreso for the boy

d. children DO need some kind of schedule, as they approach the age of being in school full-time.  You can't simply say to your teacher or the cafeteria staff "I'm not hungry now...but I may want to have lunch in an hour" once you attend (most) schools, and certainly public school

e. children do not ALWAYS know what is best for them

Wzz

regardless of all that, i don't think what happened deserved an abusive punishment. and yes, i feel this was abusive. if the grandparents didn't, then that is their opinion, but i think the grandfather should have told the mother of the kid. it is HER decision on how the kid should be punished for disruptive behavior, not the grandmother. also, i can't believe that the grandmother was 100% right in the argument she had with the kid. sure, they scream and yell and i have had my patience tried and tried over and over and over. but in the end, i know *I* am the adult and should know better than to argue with a small child. the mom and grandmother should come up with a solution on how to handle this sort of thing.

it makes me mad when grandparents take it upon themselves to decide how to punish kids. i'm not saying the kid didnt need a time out or whatever people do with their kids, but the vinegar thing seems horrible and scary for a 4 year old to have to process.

zsazsa-stl

The only input I have to this discussion:  My dad drinks straight vinegar nightcap every night. 

DG1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_ugh-16?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:7a3ec3fa-2bd5-4e66-87c8-5c9be8652898Post:2503b991-3757-4915-a11b-abe54ab80d00">Re: Ugh.</a>:
[QUOTE]in the end, i know *I* am the adult and should know better than to argue with a small child.
Posted by Wzz[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Word. A small, tired, hungry child at that. Yet Grandma probably feels like a million bucks for having "won."

</div>

Wzz

oh, it doesn't mean i react like an adult all the time - i have had my fair share of responding to a tantrum with a loud voice. but at the same time, i know i'm still going to be the grown up and i need to remember the kid doesn't have the same kind of rational thought process i do.