WDYT?

VarunaTT

Background:

I've been pondering this for awhile b/c I often find myself wondering if you can support the art, but not the artist (generally speaking, I don't think you can.  Supporting the art is what allows the artist to exist, but I don't care if other people want to.  I just think that I need to put my monies where my beliefs are).  A new example has cropped up.

I know which comedians supported Daniel Tosh during the controversy over his rape joke.  I don't support those comedians anymore.  I will add to this, that I will still support the comedians who made nuanced arguments that there isn't anything inherently wrong with a rape joke, but there was something wrong with Tosh saying, "Wouldn't it be funny if like 5 guys raped that girl right now?" b/c there were comedians who did that.

Patton Oswalt in is one of the comedians who I no longer watch b/c of this.  That's actually disappointing to me, b/c Oswalt is quite the vocal atheist.  Now, his FB status re: the Boston Marathon is flying around, b/c it was a lovely sentiment and reminder of the good of humanity.  And I might've been able to change my mind on this, except for his last line, "So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or jjust garden-variety misogyny, hatred or ignorance, just look it in the eye and think, "The good outnumber you, and we always will."  I just laughed and thought, "Really.  Stupid."  I still will not support him and I find his "good thoughts" to be....IDK, lacking somehow.

So, at what point do you forgive someone for saying/doing something absolutely sh!tty?  What makes a difference?  If the someone is a celebrity, does it make a difference?  If the absolutely sh!tty thing wasn't an "issue" for you, does that make a difference?  Other things to think about?

GBCK

I think this is always more complicated than we'd like.

I think Richard Dawkins made an ass of himself over 'elevatorgate' and I lost a LOT of respect for him.

It probably will contribute to me buying fewer (probably none) of his books in the future.  But...he's also a brilliant guy and if he came to speak near me, I might suck it up and go listen.  And I do still pay attention to books/people he reccomends because he's 'good' that way.  insanely so.

People would be a lot easier if they were black and white but really, I find that I have to support a lot of things/people that are 'light gray' in this world.  I just try to avoid the 'dark gray"

VarunaTT

Dawkins is an issue for me too, GBCK.  The fact that he then continued to argue after Elevatorgate has made him apalling to me.  

Wzz

i think, in general, not every person in your life (and that is a general YOUR, not necessarily V) will do something you disagree with. not everyone is perfect. if you (general YOU) cut everyone out of your life the minute they do something, as you said, sh**tty, and never forgive them, then you'll live a very lonely life. you don't have to forgive everything and everyone, and i do think some things are unforvgiveable. but show me the person who has never put their foot in their mouth just once, not one mistake ever made, and is just picture perfect, and i'll sign over my assets to you.

VarunaTT

Sure, Wz, but if it's a celebrity, is that different or not? (I"m just asking, not arguing. I don't have an answer I believe for this one).  So, we only interact with celebrities through their chosen art forms...if you disagree with what they do in that art form, do you ever try to overcome the disagreement?  Or cut and run?

He took a lot of grief about it.

I should note: someone on my FB is telling me I"m wrong, though I disagree.  Patton did say that he didn't think what Tosh said was right, but that the woman trying to shout Tosh down was wrong too.  I still have an issue with that, mostly the "but".  If he wanted to make an issue out of audience behavior, that is a whole 'nother thing to me.  Her behavior doesn't make Tosh's behavior okay.

GBCK

I do think there's also a degree of separation.

Defending Tosh isn't on the same level as saying it himself.

And it's not on the same level of a true 'rape apologist'.

I think I'm probably rather 'meh' about holding Patton to that standard.  Not that it excuses being an asshole but...we're all weird about our friends (and the comedy world is rather small and tricky to navigate) sometimes.  

Wzz

oh, i agree to an extent, that it's different with celebrities.

but, if you don't like their "art", then there's no reason to follow them anymore, no? i'm speaking for myself here, because i don't follow anything a celebrity will say or do outside of their art. like actors, for example. i don't follow their lives, so if someone does something douchy i generally shrugg my shoulders at it. if they entertain me, that's all i care about.

there are a ton of comedians i just don't watch because i don't like the content of their humor, or the way they deliver it, or whatever reason i have. i'm not so sure it matters in the grand scheme of things if there are still other people who enjoy them. i'm looking at you, dane cook. i still hate him a lot.

VarunaTT

The other person I've struggled with is actually a drag queen.  And I still adore her art; I just refuse to support her b/c she's said and supported some horrible statements (to me) re: transgendered people.  And that really really bothered me and I miss watching her and her future projects I was following too.

IDK, it's always an interesting conundrum to me. Sometimes I think we were all better off when we didn't get to see celebrities every little thought and make them human.  It's easy to forget that humans can suck and disappoint us.

Wzz

that's a different situation, being spoken to directly versus seeing something in print or on stage you disagree with.  seeing it on stage, you are more disconnected with the person IMO, so you can watch or not watch them perform, and it probably makes no difference in your life. but when you have a personal connection to the person, it probably makes it harder to let it go.

::shrugg:: this is why i don't bother with celeb lives.

GBCK

This is where I draw my line between "human beings are all sometimes assholes" and "this individual /group is an asshole who is intentionally working aginst the good of humankind and I would be appalled if my dollars went to their causes"

Dawkins kinda put himself in the 2nd group for me.  So did Scott Adams recently.  

Tom Cruise is in that group.

Tosh put himself in the 2nd group.

Hobby Lobby, chic-fil-a and Eden Organics are in the second group.

Tosh semi-apologists still *often* land in the first group for me.  Most other celebrities are in that first group.  Meijer is in the first group; Wlamart probably should be in the 2nd group.  Hell, Toms shoes ae in the first group.

VarunaTT

I like that separation, GBCK.

My issue with Dawkin is that I think the many followers/fans he has who took those statements he made and ran with them on their own just make me ill.  And it's created such a heated and painful division in the atheist movement.  

I had to stop following him on Twitter after the Western women should be happy with their status b/c 3rd World women are worse off.  What?

zsazsa-stl

I like GBCK's explanation, too. I have a feeling that if I really knew the truth about a lot of people, I would be left with no one left to support. But, we all have our short-comings and shouldn't be judged 100% by our mistakes.  Also, I try to remember that apologies don't make their way through social media the way mistakes do.  So you often don't hear the good things about a person/organization even if they out-weigh the bad 10 to 1.  

What are the Scott Adams and Eden Organics scandals?  

GBCK

Scott Adams was openly mysognistic recently...and when called on it pulled a "well, my SERIOUS readers know better; people who don't read my blog daily shouldn't judge me for comparing women to children and/or the mentally hadicapped" non apology.

It's a drop in the bucket, but he's got a bit of a history of being something of an asshole (including being a tad assy about Gary Larson's death because it 'bumped' Dilber'ts ratings):

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/03/25/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/

Eden Organics is pulling the "let me file suit so I don't have to provide whore pills to employees who use our insurance because--WHORES!" (actually, their word is "lifestyle drug" but...same thing.)

http://jezebel.com/organic-eden-foods-isnt-progressive-enough-to-pay-for-472436365