Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help

mrswac58 · September 2011

I have a question for you ladies who have been through counseling or are just knowledgeable. I know the bible says leave and cleave but when exactly is that supposed to happen? Before or after you get married? lol Its a silly question but I feel like it should happen in preparation for marriage somewhat. But what does the bible say?

I just constantly feel that I'm the 3rd party in FH's life, behind God and his parents. We live together,sorry Lord, I pay bills, take care of home, and of him but still feel like his parents dictate his life and i have no part of it. We were doing really well but recently its been weird again. I'm starting to feel like he is not capable of us living alone. We've made decisions that he's all for, then his dad will have an opinion and without consulting me he will completely change the plans. When I say something he makes it seem like i'm mean or dont like them. We dont start counseling until early next year, and since we aren't married yet, I feel like it's really not my place to tell them to back off since they will most likely throw the bible at me. AHHHHHHH!!!

What would you do?

carmenlarue · September 2011

Im sorry its tough already. You are not alone. I had my grandmother say the verse in our ceremony, because my husband and his family are joined at the hip. It's them and me, I used it because they are bible thumpers, so she (MIL) could understand and for him to know it's ok to put us first then them. His pastor talked with us once and it came staight from his mouth! He was raised in a church and so was I but somehow it was different! Anyway we went to counseling very early, maybe you should reconsider counseling now. He has done things one way for a long time, you can't expect him to change his style in a few years with you, even though we would like it that way. HTH! GL!

mrswac58 · September 2011

That's true. I have considered trying to go early. Only thing is we'd have to go to his family church where i am not a member and dont really plan on joining. But i'd be wiling to suck it up and go for counseling. I may check into that.it does help to know it's not just me. You start feeling like you are the only person going through this stuff sometimes

carmenlarue · September 2011

We are in the same boat. Not member of his church, don't plan on joining. They did EVERYTHING together and liked it just like that. However, we are a fmaily unit now, I wen to his pastor because he has to be a respected person and could give my DH good advice, which worked in my favor. Yay! They still have family dinners but don'tinclude in laws, so ^*$# em, let them go, but they will know its WEIRD, if Im asked. lol. The pastor happily accepted me to talk with him. Go on, it could work for you. Mothers and father who rely on their son's for EVERYTHING will soon know, things change, HOWEVER he does need to recognize that things will change and you are his partner. It will work out.

chescam · September 2011

Hang in there things will come around. FI is an only child and his mom retired this year. She's very independent but she started acting so weird recently. I don't know what to make of it. When we talk about the wedding day, she gets so emotional and she's even said she feels like she's losing her son. I didn't question what she said further but I don't know how she got to that conclusion.

FI is so terrified that she'll be a ball of nerves and break down in tears on the wedding day. I know she's happy for us and all but some things are just not adding up. Just this week she asked FI to pick up an extension cord from the store when he gets off work. She said she 'lost' the one she had (mind you she used it 2 weeks ago). FI gets off work late at night and she's home all day and can easily get it herself. She's been asking him to do a lot of stuff like this lately.

We actually talked about leaving and cleaving in counseling and the book we're reading has a section for parents to read. Our pastor asked us to have our parents read it. I brought the book to my parents and they said they won't read it because it's nothing new to them. lol. They said we're on our own but if we need any help, they'll always be there. FI had some problems when he took the book to his mom. She said she understood but she wanted to spend some extra time with him before the wedding and it won't be like this when we get married. ummm I'll leave that one alone. We have one more session and FI wants to bring it up becasue his mom has been acting so weird.

I think she's this way bc FI is her only child and she may feel like we'll abandon her after we get married but that's not the case at all. I'm praying it works out for us and for you too.

island07b2b · September 2011

This is a very good question. I and my FH don't live together but I can feel that I will be dealing with some of those issues just through the conversations we have had. I am already telling him that either he or his parents (and other family members) are not going to like me because some of that stuff will not be appropriate in our marriage relationship. His response is that I am right but you know when you actually have to follow up words with actions that can be hard to do. My understanding of leaving and cleaving is that the end of the process is when the vows are said and done but the process begins upon the engagement.

Soon2BSand · September 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_african-american-weddings_leave-cleave-ummm-need?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:400Discussion:deb5bd2b-95c2-4cfc-8f9a-a5aedb1cdd0dPost:85f0f62b-113e-4eb4-97a4-89187d4f30b8">Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help</a>:
[QUOTE]I have a question for you ladies who have been through counseling or are just knowledgeable. I know the bible says leave and cleave but when exactly is that supposed to happen? Before or after you get married? lol Its a silly question but I feel like it should happen in preparation for marriage somewhat. But what does the bible say? I just constantly feel that I'm the 3rd party in FH's life, behind God and his parents. We live together,sorry Lord, I pay bills, take care of home, and of him but still feel like his parents dictate his life and i have no part of it. We were doing really well but recently its been weird again. I'm starting to feel like he is not capable of us living alone. We've made decisions that he's all for, then his dad will have an opinion and without consulting me he will completely change the plans. When I say something he makes it seem like i'm mean or dont like them. We dont start counseling until early next year, and since we aren't married yet, I feel like it's really not my place to tell them to back off since they will most likely throw the bible at me. AHHHHHHH!!! What would you do?
Posted by mrswac58[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Well sweetie... this isn't the easiest thing to swallow but you are experiencing the consequences of the actions you chose to pursue.</div><div>
</div><div>FI correct in consulting his mother and father bc the Bible clearly says he's accountable to them until you become his wife. Expecting him to give you something you haven't earned is like showing up to college graduation never having attending a class. </div><div>
</div><div>Irritating? yes, but it's also something you have to learn to live with (at least until you're married anyway). The tough part of that is since you are in effect "playing house" his behavior may or may not change once the wedding happens bc in a man's mind he doesn't have to. It's worked for this long right? </div><div>
</div><div>I would conitnue to pray that God blesses your marriage beyond belief but here's a hint... doing things you know are wrong and saying "Sorry Lord" doesn't really open up that flood gate and window for blessings. Approach God humbly and ask Him to work these situations completely out for you two. Even though you are living together take steps to ensure that you aren't pretending to be husband and wife already. That kind of stuff goes a long way.

</div>

island07b2b · September 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_african-american-weddings_leave-cleave-ummm-need?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:400Discussion:deb5bd2b-95c2-4cfc-8f9a-a5aedb1cdd0dPost:dc1377f1-628b-466b-8ad0-b0a6b835a5df">Re: Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help : Well sweetie... this isn't the easiest thing to swallow but you are experiencing the consequences of the actions you chose to pursue. FI correct in consulting his mother and father bc the Bible clearly says he's accountable to them until you become his wife. Expecting him to give you something you haven't earned is like showing up to college graduation never having attending a class. Irritating? yes, but it's also something you have to learn to live with (at least until you're married anyway). The tough part of that is since you are in effect "playing house" his behavior may or may not change once the wedding happens bc in a man's mind he doesn't have to. It's worked for this long right? I would conitnue to pray that God blesses your marriage beyond belief but here's a hint... doing things you know are wrong and saying "Sorry Lord" doesn't really open up that flood gate and window for blessings. Approach God humbly and ask Him to work these situations completely out for you two. Even though you are living together take steps to ensure that you aren't pretending to be husband and wife already. That kind of stuff goes a long way.
Posted by Soon2BSand[/QUOTE]
<strong>
You are so good! I love this reply. :)</strong>

Soon2BSand · September 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_african-american-weddings_leave-cleave-ummm-need?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:400Discussion:deb5bd2b-95c2-4cfc-8f9a-a5aedb1cdd0dPost:7ca18320-790c-422a-8330-4b852dc1145b">Re: Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help : You are so good! I love this reply. :)
Posted by island07b2b[/QUOTE]

<div>It's the God in me ;-)</div><div>
</div><div>And seriously... I can speak on this bc I've been through it with husband #1. I promise you I can write the book on what not to do when engaged and married. Mercy...<span style="white-space:pre;" class="Apple-tab-span"> </span></div>

mrswac58 · September 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_african-american-weddings_leave-cleave-ummm-need?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:400Discussion:deb5bd2b-95c2-4cfc-8f9a-a5aedb1cdd0dPost:dc1377f1-628b-466b-8ad0-b0a6b835a5df">Re: Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help : Well sweetie... this isn't the easiest thing to swallow but you are experiencing the consequences of the actions you chose to pursue. <strong>FI correct in consulting his mother and father bc the Bible clearly says he's accountable to them until you become his wife.</strong> Expecting him to give you something you haven't earned is like showing up to college graduation never having attending a class. Irritating? yes, but it's also something you have to learn to live with (at least until you're married anyway). <strong>The tough part of that is since you are in effect "playing house" his behavior may or may not change once the wedding happens bc in a man's mind he doesn't have to. It's worked for this long right?</strong> I would conitnue to pray that God blesses your marriage beyond belief but here's a hint... doing things you know are wrong and saying "Sorry Lord" doesn't really open up that flood gate and window for blessings. Approach God humbly and ask Him to work these situations completely out for you two. Even though you are living together take steps to ensure that you aren't pretending to be husband and wife already. That kind of stuff goes a long way.
Posted by Soon2BSand[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Truth hurts but that doesn't make it any less true. You truly have wise words. About the above, I think this is partially when i get confused. If it's an issue now that doesn't get brought to light, how do you know it will change at all after? Even if we weren't together it would be the same issue. So that brings me back to the original question. Does that mean the process of leaving and cleaving begins once you are married? I can't wait to go to counseling. I have so many questions. I try to go sooner but FH and I are rarely in the same city for more than a week or 2 at this point. It's hard to be consistent in a class or session. I will just pray Thanks all

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Soon2BSand · September 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_african-american-weddings_leave-cleave-ummm-need?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:400Discussion:deb5bd2b-95c2-4cfc-8f9a-a5aedb1cdd0dPost:2ea93368-3927-41bb-b273-c85fc39a4948">Re: Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help : Truth hurts but that doesn't make it any less true. You truly have wise words. About the above, I think this is partially when i get confused. If it's an issue now that doesn't get brought to light, how do you know it will change at all after? Even if we weren't together it would be the same issue. So that brings me back to the original question. Does that mean the process of leaving and cleaving begins once you are married? I can't wait to go to counseling. I have so many questions. I try to go sooner but FH and I are rarely in the same city for more than a week or 2 at this point. It's hard to be consistent in a class or session. I will just pray Thanks all
Posted by mrswac58[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Thank you. </div><div>
</div><div>Make sure you don't let this go and not speak about it. You dont' have to wait until counseling to bring the issue up but be prepared for him to say what I did. He MAY not know how much it bothers you. For example, my FI and his parents have a relationship like that. I have a hard time understanding it bc both of my parents weren't exactly up fo the Parent of the Year award. He actually took the initiative and asked me "Does it bother you that I consult my parents on everything?" I told him that it didn't bother me now but once we were married it would. I also told him that while I understood his accountability to his parents bc I'm not yet his wife I would appreciate if he kept me involved in decisions he was making or wanted to make. He said he understood and thus the process of leaving and cleaving began in our relationship. See?

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mrswac58 · September 2011

Yes I see. Ithink I may need to work on my approach. I've brought it up multiple times, the best way I could.I have even said some of the same things. It just doesnt seem to be working. Good for him for taking the initiative in the situation. That's awesome. Like I said I need to keep praying. I may need to pray differently. May not be praying for the right stuff.lol Thanks so much you're a doll

djscat · September 2011

Anything that is a problem while you are engaged and does not get addressed is still going to be a problem when you are married. This man is going to be your husband you should be able to say anything to him about how you feel. Will that change things overnight? No. But this man has put a ring on your finger and wants to make you his wife. Which tells me he is concerned with your feelings. More importantly he is concerned with how HE makes you feel. Talk to him about how you really feel. Don't think he is going to figure it out. HE'S A MAN. HE WON'T FIGURE IT OUT! LOL

It is so very important ladies that we get in the habit of talking to our men now. Even talking about the little things good and bad is great practice. If you asked 100 married couples what is the most important thing in a successful marriage at least 90 of them would say communication. HTH

alpresberry · September 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_african-american-weddings_leave-cleave-ummm-need?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:400Discussion:deb5bd2b-95c2-4cfc-8f9a-a5aedb1cdd0dPost:5f9ae62e-83c5-4e47-8f67-9db9d8b8c735">Re: Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help : It's the God in me ;-) And seriously... I can speak on this bc I've been through it with husband #1. I p<strong>romise you I can write the book on what not to do when engaged and married. </strong>Mercy...
Posted by Soon2BSand[/QUOTE]

Great response above and feel free to drop us or me a tip or two whenever. I feel like having a great relationship is a process and we are all learning. Both FI and my parents are divorced, so sometimes I feel like I don't have a good resource for how things should be done or how to maintain longevity. FI's and my upbringing are very different and our situation is kinda the reverse. Long story short, he had a difficult childhood and was abused as a child so his definition of family is him, me and his son...and nothing else matters! Whereas I grew up with 5 siblings and we are all very close so I tend to value family more. Anyways, so far so good, but I just want to feel like I have the tools to manage any issues as they arise. Sorry for ranting and thanks for listening.

Ksk2012 · September 2011

So I am the opposite of you (Original Poster) .. FI was raised in a small family by his grandmother and cannot wait for me to become Mrs. Duncan and for us to have kids and start a family and cleave to us. Me, on the other hand, I was raised with a large family and friends of family ( you know those play aunties) that are all up in your business - not in a bad way- just a tight family way. For me I would look to my family for advice, confirmation, suggestions, and everything. Whatever they said I considered gold.

Initially, FI would complain about this but I really couldn't understand what he was saying. I felt he was acting this way towards my family relationships because he didn't have a family like i had. But really, it was me. I had to learn and realize that Dave and I are becoming a family and that we are the ones that decide what will go on in our house and in our lives. I picked him because he is smart and wonderful and I realize that I could lean on him to guide and have my back in all situations.

It was a process because I grew up in a situation where family was everything and we were all in each other's business and making decisions for each other. I didnt realize when I consulted my mom and sister for everything first, it made him feel third in my life. Eventually, the advice came from my married sister. she has been married for 20 years and she told me that it is a process but it is a very important process because I needed to get on board with TEAM DUNCAN and leave my family behind. I could still consult them or share with them but my HUSBAND (will be on April 7, 2012) is the person who I should consult everything with. If he and I agree then no other voice should change that decision, not my mother, not my family.

Our counselor mentioned this idea of cleaving has to do with trust. Not in the sense of, oh you wont steal my wallet or you wont cheat on me.. but really giving over yourself, your life to another person. A REAL trust. Knowing that, that person has your back and you have his.

Overtime we have all be hurt by someone who we thought had our back and didn't so it is difficult to trust because of the scars but we have to. I had to eventually learn that if something went wrong it was Dave whom I had to trust that we would work it out and not my mom.

Today we are a lot better at this and yes we are living together and yes it is wrong. But playing house or not, relationships bring to the table a lot of issues that only a spouse can see because they are looking at us through different eyes than our coworkers and friends.

Whew sorry for this being so long.. maybe I just needed to get that off my chest.

The good news is it is possible and you keep praying, you keep trusting and being intimate (emotionally not sexually) and eventually you guys will get there. I believe you will. We did.

mrswac58 · September 2011

Ksk2012- Let it out girl! lol Hey hometown buddy! Funny beause our family dynamic is very similar. He is an only child raised pretty much with just his mom and dad. So they are used to it being just them. I have a large family and extented "play" family as well. We are very close too. But I'm pretty good at sharing.lol I guess, like you said, it is a process. It just sucks when I've worked so hard to make him part of my life and I don't always feel like he's putting up that same effort. Doesn't mean he isn't. I do feel like counseling is gonna be great because he will hear it from someone besides me and he will have someone to consult besides his parents.

I think i've done pretty well communicating with him as far as this issue is concerned. I even try not to throw it at him too often so he doesn't feel bad. I think that receiving it is the issue. I'm sure that it will get better. He may just be having a hard time

Ksk2012 · September 2011

I guess we (read I) have to learn that change takes time. That is why a marriage isn't a race.. I have got to remember that

Leave and Cleave... Ummm when? I need help

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