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Is this wrong?

shawna127shawna127 member
Third Anniversary 100 Comments
in Catholic Weddings
Since we're sort of on the topic anyway I thought I would ask. My sister and I were having a conversation over Christmas and she said she understood being open to children.  However, she asked if it was wrong to get married with the intention to never have children of your own (to never even try, not because of IF) but to just adopt, and adopt quite a few children.  Is that wrong?  I didn't know, which is why I thought I would ask you girls.

FYI (my sister intends to have her own children, this was just a hypothetical situation)
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Re: Is this wrong?

  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    A couple needs to have some sort of "just/serious" reason to make the decision to avoid pregnancy (using only moral means). This is not meant to be a permanent status either. 


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  • Riss91Riss91 member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    I guess if you were constantly adopting children, you might have a just reason to postpone pregnancy to allow for bring the adopted child into the home....

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  • itzMSitzMS member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers First Anniversary
    A couple I knew had 4 bio children, then decided their calling was to foster--and subsequently adopt--children who did not have a stable home (i.e. those who had been "bounced around" from foster home to foster home).

    Obviously, they avoided pregnancy in order to focus on the foster children. I don't know if that is a just reason or not, but it's a real-life scenario to consider for the sake of discussion.
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  • shawna127shawna127 member
    Third Anniversary 100 Comments
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_is-this-wrong?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:05bc1c65-fb43-44b6-bf0f-2fb9885e3e12Post:ae7cfda2-e527-444d-b8d1-1912a9b16174">Re: Is this wrong?</a>:
    [QUOTE]I guess if you were constantly adopting children, you might have a just reason to postpone pregnancy to allow for bring the adopted child into the home....
    Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

    This is what I was thinking.  This is one of those arguments where I can see both sides.  I understand what you're saying to Carrie, because that's how I understand it.  So then is this a "just enough" reason to never have biological kids?
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  • itzMSitzMS member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers First Anniversary
    edited February 2013
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_is-this-wrong?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:05bc1c65-fb43-44b6-bf0f-2fb9885e3e12Post:41a1d188-bf2f-4506-b6ca-dc0ff271dffa">Re: Is this wrong?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is this wrong? : This is what I was thinking.  This is one of those arguments where I can see both sides.  I understand what you're saying to Carrie, because that's how I understand it.  So then is this a "just enough" reason to <strong>never have biological kids?
    </strong>Posted by shawna127[/QUOTE]

    This is the part I struggle with. That would be A LOT of abstinence and discipline.

    Statistically speaking, over the course of a marriage, the chances of conceiving a child are very high. I really don't know how feasible it is to morally avoid any and all chances of naturally conceiving.

    Maybe someone knows some secret I don't!
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_is-this-wrong?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:05bc1c65-fb43-44b6-bf0f-2fb9885e3e12Post:41a1d188-bf2f-4506-b6ca-dc0ff271dffa">Re: Is this wrong?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is this wrong? : This is what I was thinking.  This is one of those arguments where I can see both sides.  I understand what you're saying to Carrie, because that's how I understand it.  So then is this a "just enough" reason to never have biological kids?
    Posted by shawna127[/QUOTE]

    <div>I think each case is individual, but on a generic evaluation, I don't think so. It may seem like a great "cause" to take up, but I believe that they will be frustrating their own marriage-- to not have their union incarnated.</div><div>
    </div><div>Keep in mind, I'm all for adoption, I'm adopted myself. I would think that if a couple is living TTW, and an opportunity to adopt a child comes up, then it would make sense, if needed to avoid for a bit while settling with the adopted child. That's when it seems that God's providence is in play. But a couple to actively seek out adopting while purposely avoiding for that purpose seems to me a bit disordered. (using the word as the church uses it, not to pass judgement on what seems like altruistic ends)</div>
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  • TeaForMeTeaForMe member
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Comments
    I have actually wondered this myself. I have heard adoption agencies won't take you on if you are pregnant or planning to become pregnant in the near future, presumably to ensure you would have the focus to spend on a new child. So to me, avoiding in order to accommodate a growing family is a just reason.
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  • shawna127shawna127 member
    Third Anniversary 100 Comments
    itzMS and Carrie- I agree with you two. When we were having the conversation I felt like saying it probably wasn't the best choice but was having a hard time saying it because adoption is such a great thing.  But its like that article Carrie posted the other day.  Sometimes you have to give up a lesser good (adopting a child) for a greater good (biological child).  Obviously the situation is different if you have IF problems and also I think it's a great thing to have biological and adopted children!
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  • femme55femme55 member
    Tenth Anniversary 100 Comments
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_is-this-wrong?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:05bc1c65-fb43-44b6-bf0f-2fb9885e3e12Post:77c8b6a7-f9fe-457c-852a-4ecb342cd625">Re: Is this wrong?</a>:
    [QUOTE]itzMS and Carrie- I agree with you two. When we were having the conversation I felt like saying it probably wasn't the best choice but was having a hard time saying it because adoption is such a great thing.  But its like that article Carrie posted the other day.  Sometimes you have to give up a lesser good (adopting a child) for a greater good (biological child).  Obviously the situation is different if you have IF problems and also I think it's a great thing to have biological and adopted children!
    Posted by shawna127[/QUOTE]

    <div>But wouldn't the "greater good" be giving a home to a child already in the world than to bring a new child into the world that otherwise wouldn't have to be provided for if pregnancy was avoided?  In response to the article someone posted last week about the abortion ban bill in arkansas, i did some research on what happens to women who are denied abortions--i.e. do they attempt to self-abort, do they have and keep the child, do they give the child up for adoption?  I found that most keep the child but end up slipping below the poverty line--most want the abortion in the 1st place because they didn't think they could afford the child.  It seems like the adoption system that could get these children into better homes is broken.</div><div>
    </div><div><a href="http://io9.com/5958187/what-happens-to-women-denied-abortions-this-is-the-first-scientific-study-to-find-out" rel="nofollow">http://io9.com/5958187/what-happens-to-women-denied-abortions-this-is-the-first-scientific-study-to-find-out</a></div>
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  • femme55femme55 member
    Tenth Anniversary 100 Comments
     I found that most keep the child but end up slipping below the poverty line--most want the abortion in the 1st place because they didn't think they could afford the child.  

    This part also made me really irritated at politicians who are pro-life but do every thing they can to cut social services programs.  The way things break down across party lines, that is the vast majority of the time.



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  • lalaith50lalaith50 member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    So this hypothetical couple would be using NFP for the entirety of their marriage? wow... that is a really long time! :-o 
    But yes, the permanent resolution to "never" have children is wrong. I'm pretty sure that having that intention as you made your marriagge vows would be grounds for annulment.
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  • Riss91Riss91 member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    femme - I think "greater good" might not be the best phrase. I think the unification of a couple into flesh (biological child) is the pinnacle of love and marriage. So, it would be important for a couple to procreate if at all possible.

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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_is-this-wrong?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:05bc1c65-fb43-44b6-bf0f-2fb9885e3e12Post:79005c65-80fc-4ff5-a3a3-4386121e56fd">Re: Is this wrong?</a>:
    [QUOTE]  I found that most keep the child but end up slipping below the poverty line--most want the abortion in the 1st place because they didn't think they could afford the child.   This part also made me really irritated at politicians who are pro-life but do every thing they can to cut social services programs.  The way things break down across party lines, that is the vast majority of the time.
    Posted by femme55@hotmail.com[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>I disagree with this assesment. I am very adamantly pro-life and I absolutely do believe in (and I do help donate) to pregnancy resources. I DO NOT believe that it needs to be the government providing these pregnancy resources, or mandating specific resource programs that make me pay for it with my taxes, but running by their rules, which most of the time I don't agree with.  Same ends, different means of getting there. 
    </div><div>
    </div><div>
    </div>
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited February 2013
    About "greater good".... adopting actually wouldn't necessarily be the greater good. This is trying to fix things at the symptom level rather than the healing at the root causes.

    The respect for the dignity of life has gone down, because the respect for where life starts has gone down (marriage and marital embrace). 

    While there are children that need homes now, and we should be helping them now, we also need to look at why this problem exists in the first place. And by frustrating one's own end of marriage (love incarnated-- 2 become one flesh, and giving that love a name), in order to help the symptom of that very problem keeps the problems going. 

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  • shawna127shawna127 member
    Third Anniversary 100 Comments
    edited February 2013
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_is-this-wrong?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:05bc1c65-fb43-44b6-bf0f-2fb9885e3e12Post:f30ed04d-4ec9-40d1-ab2b-e80cbc8e91c8">Re: Is this wrong?</a>:
    [QUOTE]About "greater good".... adopting actually wouldn't necessarily be the greater good. This is trying to fix things at the symptom level rather than the healing at the root causes. The respect for the dignity of life has gone down, because the respect for where life starts has gone down (marriage and marital embrace).  <strong>While there are children that need homes now, and we should be helping them now, we also need to look at why this problem exists in the first place. And by frustrating one's own end of marriage (love incarnated-- 2 become one flesh, and giving that love a name), in order to help the symptom of that very problem keeps the problems going.</strong> 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    I had to reread this a couple times to understand.  But I completely agree, we need to stop band-aiding things and fix the root cause.
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