Snarky Brides

What's at risk in the abortion "debate"

13

Re: What's at risk in the abortion "debate"

  • Or, what Buddha said so much more succintly.
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  • [i]As someone sympathetic to both sides, I genrerally try to use neutral language--anti-abortion rights and pro-abortion rights or similiar, for example. However, I don't worry to much about people thinking I support the crazies. First, I just don't care what the true crazies think. Second, anyone who assumes that you can't be ambivalent about abortion or even be anti-abortion rights without being a crazy isn't worth much thought from me.[/i]Yeah, Fallin said it a lot better than I did.
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  • I was more thinking about what O'Reilly said about Tiller (although that was very close to incitement in my book) and the groups that refer to abortion as a Holocaust. I don't think they intend for people to go out and murder, but they leave the door open for shitty interpretations by those that are already leaning that way. I thought we had some anti-choicers on the board, I was wondering if murders like Tiller's made them feel like they needed to moderate or clarify their speech.
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    "The meek shall inherit the earth" isn't about children. It's about deer. We're all going to get messed the fuckup by a bunch of cloned super-deer.- samfish2bcrab

    Sometimes I wonder if scientists have never seen a sci-fi movie before. "Oh yes, let's create a super species of deer. NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG." I wonder if State Farm offers a Zombie Deer Attack policy. -CaliopeSpidrman
  • Stepping aside from the debate, and back to this one particular woman's situation.  If she is sane, and simply incredibly selfish with assholish tendencies, and let's give her the benefit of the doubt that she'd prefer if it didn't come to an abortion, then I think she better be ready to pony up $20K (or whatever it costs) for IVF with gender selection with a single embryo transfer.  In other worlds, do everything medically in her power to prevent a situation where she would have to consider aborting.
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  • Well, O'Reilly is an idiot who just wants to push buttons and get ratings.  I'm sympathetic to groups who see this as a holocaust of sorts.  If you believe that life begins at conception and that abortion is the taking of a human life, I see how you get to that view.Generally though, I can't hold anyone responsible for anyone else's actions, just for expressing an opinion of belief. If someone or some group advocates killing doctors, that's one thing but saying you think doctors are murdering babies is another.  Do I wish the extremes on both sides would dial it down? Yes.  Do I think they are responsible for the crazies' actions and decisions? No.
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  • I am not anti-choice, but I do believe abortion should be used in only very limited circumstances, and as I've been arguing here, I'm not opposed to government restrictions on access.That being said, while I hope that others would modify their speech to avoid encouraging already homicidal people from following their urges, I don't think they should be required to change their language because of what someone else might do.  They are choosing their provocative language intentionally, in hopes of converting people who might be open to their views.  Should they be denied that right because of what someone else might do?As for myself, I try avoid expressions that would elevate a situation, because I believe that people often see the "meat" of a matter more clearly when emotions are left out of the mix.  I'm not trying to win an argument based on temporary emotional sways, if I'm invested enough to try to change your mind, I'd like it to be because you see and share my point of view.
  • Do I wish the extremes on both sides would dial it down?What on the pro-choice side makes you think this way? I haven't seen much that seems like incitement to violence from that side. In this case I just don't get "both sides are equally bad/at fault, etc".
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    "The meek shall inherit the earth" isn't about children. It's about deer. We're all going to get messed the fuckup by a bunch of cloned super-deer.- samfish2bcrab

    Sometimes I wonder if scientists have never seen a sci-fi movie before. "Oh yes, let's create a super species of deer. NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG." I wonder if State Farm offers a Zombie Deer Attack policy. -CaliopeSpidrman
  • Extreme does not have to equal violent.
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  • What on the pro-choice side makes you think this way? I haven't seen much that seems like incitement to violence from that side. In this case I just don't get "both sides are equally bad/at fault, etc". I have a friend who is crazy pro-choice.  I generally steer away from political conversations with her because it's not enough that you agree with her.  She still wants to argue her point because you may not agree vehemently enough.The last time we discussed aborition, she brought it up at a hibachi restaurant where you share the table with strangers.  And she was terribly loud when explaining that having an abortion is no different than cutting your fingernails deliberately at a volume that would embarass me and bring the attention of strangers who want no part of the conversation.And I really wanted to throat punch her.  So I guess that would count as a pro-choicer who could incite violence.  Well, if I had gone ahead and punched.
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    3 out of 4 dead babies agree! pepsi is better than coke! - EdithBouvierBeale
    Lordy. Grow some balls and stop lurking. It's like stealing from the internet. Jesuschrist. -- AudreyHorne
    I hate love and marriage. I got married so I could destroy these things from the inside. - NoisyPenguin
    It's a good thing my circle of trust is as giant as my vagina. That only leaves a couple people out. - Cali
  • I'm not so much talking inciting violence, but the refusal to see why the other side might feel that this is deeply wrong and the assertions that anything other than abortion on demand is just a hair's breath from rusty coat hangers drives me batty.  It's just unproductive.  If both sides could acknowledge that everyone sees the fetus as something less than a fully individualized human but more than just some cells invading a host we could maybe find some common ground.
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  • Also, people who think that abortion is killing think that your position in advocating legalized abortion is, in fact, inciting violence--the death of millions of babies.  
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  • Ok, I'll bite.  I'd describe myself as pro-life, or anti-abortion rights, or whatever name you're comfortable with. I generally lean libertarian.  I can't reconcile being pro-choice/pro-abortion rights with that outlook, because I don't see a human at any stage of development as anything other than an individual endowed with the same right to life that I have.  I just can't wrap my mind around drawing a line and saying "now this is a person," when nothing about the thing in question has changed except its age and/or location.  I'm not trying to persuade anyone here of anything -- I don't think this is the sort of issue one changes one's mind about, especially on the basis of an argument from an internet stranger.  This is just my personal outlook on the issue.To answer Mouse's question about changing rhetoric to distance oneself from the crazies, I'd say that the people who know me know that I find the threats/violence/etc. completely senseless, so I haven't really been in a position to need to distance myself in that way.  I think the rational pro-life people I know want the crazies to stop even more than people on the other side do, since we recognize that they're accomplishing nothing but hurting our position.  Of course, I also believe in a consistent ethic in this regard that I think has to include a wide range of social justice concerns, and I think the people who are only focused on the unborn and not with what happens next hold a largely untenable position.
  • If both sides could acknowledge that everyone sees the fetus as something less than a fully individualized human but more than just some cells invading a host we could maybe find some common ground.But is that even true? I'd say many feel that way, but there are people who visualize all the little aborted babies frolicking in heaven with Jesus and there are those who really think it's no different than removing a cancerous growth. So I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. I am glad that no one (well possibly other than Groomz) seems to think that the pro-choicers are guilty of threatening or harming anti-choicers.
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    "The meek shall inherit the earth" isn't about children. It's about deer. We're all going to get messed the fuckup by a bunch of cloned super-deer.- samfish2bcrab

    Sometimes I wonder if scientists have never seen a sci-fi movie before. "Oh yes, let's create a super species of deer. NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG." I wonder if State Farm offers a Zombie Deer Attack policy. -CaliopeSpidrman
  • I guess since my example is of a pro-choicer who is likely to get herself harmed at some point, and not of harming an pro-lifer, it probably doesn't count.
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    3 out of 4 dead babies agree! pepsi is better than coke! - EdithBouvierBeale
    Lordy. Grow some balls and stop lurking. It's like stealing from the internet. Jesuschrist. -- AudreyHorne
    I hate love and marriage. I got married so I could destroy these things from the inside. - NoisyPenguin
    It's a good thing my circle of trust is as giant as my vagina. That only leaves a couple people out. - Cali
  • Stepped away while I was writing my last bit and missed some things.the refusal to see why the other side might feel that this is deeply wrong and the assertions that anything other than abortion on demand is just a hair's breath from rusty coat hangers drives me batty. It's just unproductive. If both sides could acknowledge that everyone sees the fetus as something less than a fully individualized human but more than just some cells invading a host we could maybe find some common ground. I generally agree with this, except for the fact that I do (and I know others who do) see a fetus as a fully individualized human being.  I do think there is room for rational discussion that doesn't get utilized because people like to paint this issue as one of extremes only, though (as Fallin mentioned with the "no abortion-on-demand automatically = back alleys" on the one side, and the murder of doctors on the other).
  • But is that even true? I'd say many feel that way, but there are people who visualize all the little aborted babies frolicking in heaven with Jesus and there are those who really think it's no different than removing a cancerous growth. So I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. Sure, it's true.  Well, at least almost entirely true.  Only the most radical of the radical assert that abortion isn't acceptable in the case that the life of the mother is at risk (esp. early).  So clearly the vast majority think that the fetus is somehow secondary to the fully individualized woman.  Only the most radical of the radical assert that abortion is acceptable up until birth for any reason. So clearly the vast majority think there's something more here than a cancerous growth.  Are there the crazy fringes?  Sure, but I'm willing to toss out that tiny minority.  I think the VAST majority fall somewhere in the middle spectrum.
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  • there are people who visualize all the little aborted babies frolicking in heaven with JesusThis strikes me as needlessly incendiary.  I arrived at my position on the issue completely apart from any religious motivation, and I'm relatively confident that I'm not the only one to have done so.  This is another thing that bothers me about the debate -- I see no reason at all to paint it in religious terms, and doing so clouds the ability of both sides to have a well-reasoned discussion.
  • I generally agree with this, except for the fact that I do (and I know others who do) see a fetus as a fully individualized human being.Then are you anti-abortion if if not ending the pg will kill the mother?
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  • Only the most radical of the radical assert that abortion isn't acceptable in the case that the life of the mother is at risk (esp. early).To me, the principle of double-effect attaches to "life of the mother" exceptions (if there is actually a real danger to her life -- obviously, I'm not talking about the psychological damage wrought by having to have a boy instead of a girl), and so it is entirely different from having an abortion because you're not financially stable or even because you were raped (I know that's going to get me in trouble with people here, but I truly believe a child born of a rape shouldn't be punished for his father's crime and should be allowed to be born and hopefully to be adopted by a loving family).
  • To me, the principle of double-effect attaches to "life of the mother" exceptionsB/c both would die?  What about in cases where the mother would be able to carry the baby and it live but she would probably die (say she needs cancer treatment immediately)? 
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  • Rosenjoe- I meant that literally. There is currently a movement within evangelical groups for the male partner in an abortion to pray for "his babies" and visualize them playing with Jesus. Your response hadn't come up yet when I was replying to Fallin and I was just trying to think of an example of people who really do think the fetus is the same as person. I think the rape exception is usually with the mindset that in those cases there really hasn't been any kind of consent. I don't agree with your position but I do find it more consistent. What are your thoughts on severe fetal abnormalities (spina bifida, Downs, the more drastic ones incompatible with life)?
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    "The meek shall inherit the earth" isn't about children. It's about deer. We're all going to get messed the fuckup by a bunch of cloned super-deer.- samfish2bcrab

    Sometimes I wonder if scientists have never seen a sci-fi movie before. "Oh yes, let's create a super species of deer. NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG." I wonder if State Farm offers a Zombie Deer Attack policy. -CaliopeSpidrman
  • B/c both would die? What about in cases where the mother would be able to carry the baby and it live but she would probably die (say she needs cancer treatment immediately)? I'm not sure how rosenjoe will answer, but I can follow the rational argument to the point that if only one life will be spared, then it a horrible medical decision should be made by the family with the doctor's advice on which would have the better quality of life.  Sometimes, I imagine this would have to also take into account any other children or adults dependent upon the mother.  It's a miserable "cost of life" calculation, but I can see the answer not always being the mother.
  • Sorry for not being more clear, Fallin.  The principle of double-effect means that a morally neutral or good (in this case, treating a woman who will otherwise die) is still permissible, even if accomplishing the act entails something ordinarily morally impermissible (in this case, abortion or a treatment that causes abortion, such as a hysterectomy on a pregnant woman).  That's sort of a clunky definition, I'm sorry.  Trying to explain Thomistic principles without my afternoon caffeine is a bad idea.  The wikipedia article on it is actually pretty good: [url]<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_effect" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_effect</a>[/url]
  • CS- in that case does the mother get to decide or is it up to her doctor and family? Because I think I'm going to lock myself in a closet now.
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    "The meek shall inherit the earth" isn't about children. It's about deer. We're all going to get messed the fuckup by a bunch of cloned super-deer.- samfish2bcrab

    Sometimes I wonder if scientists have never seen a sci-fi movie before. "Oh yes, let's create a super species of deer. NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG." I wonder if State Farm offers a Zombie Deer Attack policy. -CaliopeSpidrman
  • There is currently a movement within evangelical groups for the male partner in an abortion to pray for "his babies" and visualize them playing with Jesus. Your response hadn't come up yet when I was replying to Fallin and I was just trying to think of an example of people who really do think the fetus is the same as person. The problem with this is that it again paints any anti-abortionist who believes that a fetus should be treated as any member of society with full-rights as gravitating to the extreme.  I don't think that's a fair assessment.
  • Again, I'm not trying to lump everyone together, I was trying to think of an example that indisputably thought fetus = person.
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    "The meek shall inherit the earth" isn't about children. It's about deer. We're all going to get messed the fuckup by a bunch of cloned super-deer.- samfish2bcrab

    Sometimes I wonder if scientists have never seen a sci-fi movie before. "Oh yes, let's create a super species of deer. NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG." I wonder if State Farm offers a Zombie Deer Attack policy. -CaliopeSpidrman
  • Sorry for not being more clear, Fallin. The principle of double-effect means that a morally neutral or good (in this case, treating a woman who will otherwise die) is still permissible, even if accomplishing the act entails something ordinarily morally impermissible Fair enough.  I'm not sure that most people are this well-thought out on the issue (or well-rooted in philosophy), but I think it supports my sense that most people think it is permissible to prioritize the woman's life over life of the fetus. 
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  • CS- in that case does the mother get to decide or is it up to her doctor and family?When I say "family" in this context, I mean the pregnant woman and the child's father, if they are living together as a family.  I would argue that the mother should have the final, official decision-making authority, but should make the decision in consult with the father.But please, this is not my stance on abortion.  This is only how I imagine a pro-life person could come to a logical answer to the situation.Again, I personally am pro-choice, but am not opposed to greater restrictions to access.
  • There is currently a movement within evangelical groups for the male partner in an abortion to pray for "his babies" and visualize them playing with Jesus.Ok, I'll give you that that's creepy as all foff.  Regarding birth defects, even those that are incompatible with life, I hold the same position I do on all other abortions: I'm opposed.  I can totally see why a family would choose that, but I still think it's the same as killing a human person and so is morally impermissible in my view.  I can't even imagine the heartache that goes along with a diagnosis of that sort or--even more--the loss of an infant under those (or any other) circumstances.  But I personally don't see how choosing to end its life is better than letting it live with whichever defect and letting it come to a natural death, however soon that may be.  I know that that has to be the most heartbreaking thing imaginable, but I truly cannot reconcile abortion with my belief that personhood begins at conception, even in cases where there is something catastrophically wrong with the fetus.
  • From what I have read from families that have chosen abortion in those cases is because hospitals will often not allow palliative care. That means surgery after surgery to extend a life that won't make it. That means never coming home, sometimes never being held, just a brief life of pain and procedures. I would think that an abortion that stops the heart first so there is no pain would be vastly more compassionate.
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    "The meek shall inherit the earth" isn't about children. It's about deer. We're all going to get messed the fuckup by a bunch of cloned super-deer.- samfish2bcrab

    Sometimes I wonder if scientists have never seen a sci-fi movie before. "Oh yes, let's create a super species of deer. NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG." I wonder if State Farm offers a Zombie Deer Attack policy. -CaliopeSpidrman
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