Grammar!

kinsey0628 · February 2012

So, this is not a rant or an attack on anyone. But the irritation thread from earlier has got me thinking about grammar and language and I just felt like writing more about my thoughts. I admitted that I am totally guilty of using "rite" "nite" "u" "tho" "thru" etc, which I know annoys some people (and you totally have the *rite* (haha) to be annoyed), but I just wanted to expand on my philosophy about it... if anyone cares.

In college, I used to be a total grammar nazi. But I then took this sociology class on language and the evolution of language, etc, which made me see language in a sort of new *lite* (ha, sorry.).. new LIGHT. Language and dialects are fluid and always evolving. For example, you know like the American dictionary dude, Webster, didn't he try to invent all these NEW American spellings to show our difference from the British, by taking out all those extra silent letters. Like British would spell "Glamour" and USA spells it "Glamor" and adding the extra letters is seen as pretentious. Theater/theatre. I know there's a lot of other "ough" words, but I can't think of any right now.

Even TK has its own dialect/language. I know other message boards have some of the same abbreviations, but some are unique to TK I think.

All in all, I would say that I'm accepting of appreviating words to remove excess letters and am totally guilty of this offense (offence, ha)... But I really do NOT support lack of punctuation, which just makes things so hard to read. I also do not support misspelled or misused words, like than/then, accept/except, affect/effect. That really annoys me and kind of makes me feel sorry for the person misusing them. And I am also not a fan of using numbers "4" words. That realy bumps me and I find that really hard to read.

But I feel like our language is still evolving... the way you see kids text and abbreviate, etc. And how we use acronyms for EVERYTHING now. BTW, WTF, OMG, etc... I mean, those are so common, they are practically words in their own right these days. And it doesn't really bug me or annoy me, I more just find it really fascinating and interesting to watch the language evolve right before my own eye balls.
I just felt like sharing that

What are your thoughts on grammar?

whitsy · February 2012

Using "rite" (I'm assuming you mean it as right?) and "u" and "tho" are just plain old incorrect. It's not on the same page as using an acronym or different spelling of words based on the country.

kinsey0628 · February 2012

Oh yeah. No, I didn't mean that it's actually correct. I definitely realize it IS incorrect grammar.

But I guess I just also sort of see it as language evolving, when it's used as an abbrreviation or shortening of a word, even if it IS technically *wrong*.

kinsey0628 · February 2012

Maybe I should stop using "thru" "tho" etc... since it apparently looks so bad.

I definitely don't use it trying to be "special" or cute though. It really is just so much faster, and is it really much harder to read? I feel like if it doesn't make it a lot harder to read, then it's not a big deal.

But yeah, maybe I really should reconsider my use of these abbreviations.

whitsy · February 2012

If by evolving, you mean evolving into a society where people are too lazy to add in a "gh" and drop the "e", then OK.

But I think it's just another bit of evidence that language isn't as valued as much as it used to be in society, and people don't realize often enough that the way you speak (or write, or type) is important. I teach writing, and it drives me crazy how much slang is used, like what you mentioned, particarly "u" for "you." It's just lazy, and too informal for assignments.

kinsey0628 · February 2012

Whitsy, I definitely agree with you that "u" for "you" in anything formal is not appropriate. And that is a good/interesting point about language not being valued as much as it used to be in society. THAT makes me sad. I am a "writer" just by nature. I write long emails, long posts, words just come out of me. And I really like language and good conversation.

So on the one hand, I can definitely agree that maybe just the art of good conversation is dying, which is sad. But I also wonder on the other hand, we DO still all communicate, probably even moreso with all the technology these days. I just kind of wonder what the world will look like in 50 years I guess.

kinsey0628 · February 2012

crfb - that line you typed, I actually completely agree. The first way you typed it was really not easy for me to read, and the second way -- was fine.

And then MilkDuds, your point about your nephews typing that way, that is kind of what I'm talking about/wondering about.

I am w/ you guys in that I do NOT find profuse abbreviates easy to read... but all the young kids, or a lot of them, anyway (or they would say neway) are doing it. So isn't that sort of language evolving along with communication technology?

So like when we are little old ladies, what will the language be like? Will we all be basically illiterate if we can't read their abbreviations?

whitsy · February 2012

And I understand that informally, it's easy to lapse into using grammar incorrectly. But if teaching sixth grade writing has taught me anything, it's that the increase in using words like that tend to leak out into more formal settings, and make those habits harder to break. I have students who genuinely do not even realize they are using "u" and "i." I just think it's important at all times to make an effort to use good grammar! Fight those "nite" urges!

Simply Fated · February 2012

Language evolves through time and not because a few people are too lazy to write out the whole word. Abbreviations we use on the knot keep us from typing out whole words. What you're doing isn't abbreviating words, you're just purposely misspelling them to make it easier for YOU. It might take only a second to decipher each word, but those seconds add up to minutes really fast. For every minute I spend trying to decipher what you and others are trying to communicate is time I'm wasting on your laziness. You're not evolving language, you're being lazy and asking me to waste my time.

kinsey0628 · February 2012

Haha Whitsy!! Also, I have to say, that I do tend to just write out stream-of-conscious style, especially in emails, not thinking too much about the abbreviations I'm using. But sometimes then if I go back and READ what I've wriiten, I can see it doesn't look good.

Also, as I've admitted to freely using these abbreviations myself, when I see you guys type them out, they do look a bit stupid... even to me.

I think maybe they should really be kept to a minimum on my part

And actually, I have not thought of it this way before, but Whitsy, what you said kind of made me think that using correct spellings is actually being courteous to your readers, so the inverse with incorrect spellings is then also true.

kinsey0628 · February 2012

Words do evolve due to people being "lazy" or blending them together, even in speech. Like the word "Halloween" came into existence from "Alls Hallowed Eve."

coopsbaby · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:9194ab39-2112-484d-a77a-8e9210663e31">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Grammar! : I agree with this. I see how my nephews type on FB and I would really have to stop and think to do all the u, ur, and the rest of the text speak.
Posted by ILoveMilkDuds[/QUOTE]

One of the conditions that exist is our house for using facebook is correct spelling, grammar and punctuation on anything you post. I'm not raising idiots and they don't need to contribute to the dumbing down of society. The only one who ever breaks it is my youngest and I make her go on and change her postings.

(For anyone interested, the other conditions are- you must be friends with mommy, I get to know your password, no profanity, no bullying, and no trashy photos).

whitsy · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:2fec6daf-f23b-4256-9783-2f151853bcdb">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Grammar! : One of the conditions that exist is our house for using facebook is correct spelling, grammar and punctuation on anything you post. I'm not raising idiots and they don't need to contribute to the dumbing down of society. The only one who ever breaks it is my youngest and I make her go on and change her postings. <strong>(For anyone interested, the other conditions are- you must be friends with mommy, I get to know your password, no profanity, no bullying, and no trashy photos).</strong>
Posted by coopsbaby[/QUOTE]

::thumbs up::

kinsey0628 · February 2012

I support that Coops!

I actually really am NOT trying to offend anyone or defend poor grammar or condone a lack of communcation skills.

But as everyone is saying that all these kids are writing with all these abbreviations and text speaks, etc... I dunno. To me, it DOES seem like language/communication evolving. I mean, one day, these kids are going to be adults. I wonder will they all be communicating with their little abbreviations still? Or will they actually all learn proper grammer? If they don't know the language and proper written grammar and words die out, (like Latin or something).. isn't that language evolving?

scarlettc27 · February 2012

Kinsey!

Wow. I think about this all the time!

I was an English major, and was (and still am) a total grammar hound. Sophomore year, I took this fascinating linguistics class studying the evolution of the English language concurrently with a class on Shakespeare. It was like being struck by lightning! All of the slang and carp of Shakespeare's time (which he joyfully included in his earthy writing) evolved into what we consider quite eloquent, elegant words.

Soon thereafter, I reread Little Women, in which one of the characters chides the other for using the word "awful", saying it was slang. (Later learned that is not true, but oh well.) It was so interesting to think that practically every correct word, spelling and grammatical turn is the slang and vulgar speech of another era.

Do you think people in 300 years will look back at Eminem as we do Shakespeare?

kinsey0628 · February 2012

cmhurst!!! I love it!! You get what I am saying. I am totally NOT trying to condone laziness or poor communicating skills, but yeah, I think language is ALWAYS evolving and NOW I feel like it's going really fast, due to all the advances in "communication technology."

I DO think that Eminem is really talented with his words, actually!!

**A bit of a tangent, I know, but even his name "Eminem"... it took me a hot minute until I realized it's his initials MM (Marshall Mathers) abbreviated, then spelled back out into a word. I am glad you see what I am saying CM!

em01092 · February 2012

Contractions are people being lazy and combining words. In fact we have entire words and tenses designed for speech.

Regardless, I am still a fan of proper spelling. Language is changing all the time, sure, but I still just think that TyPin' LiK tHis and spelling everything without vowels and/or incorrectly make one look dumb. I forgive people on FB who are 15 or younger, but after that, I shake my head. Shorthand and whatnot has a place in language, speech, and writing, but not in anything professional or school related. And even on FB, but I guess it's not as bad there.

scarlettc27 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:2dca15c4-f65c-4c80-a75b-83a64a7bcf20">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]I support that Coops! I actually really am NOT trying to offend anyone or defend poor grammar or condone a lack of communcation skills. But as everyone is saying that <strong>all these kids are writing with all these abbreviations and text speaks</strong>, etc... I dunno. To me, <strong>it DOES seem like language/communication evolving.</strong> ..... <strong>isn't that language evolving?</strong>
Posted by kinsey0628[/QUOTE]

<div>Yes, yes, yes. I totally agree.</div><div>
</div><div>In fact, the way we communicate with each other (whether written in French, signed in ASL, or spoken in an African click language) carries with it other clues and signals about your status to those with whom you attempt to communicate.</div><div>
</div><div>It could be said that people strive to mimic the communication patterns of the successful. (So in the case of schoolchildren, perhaps they are mimicking the cool upperclassmen who use text language.)</div><div>
</div><div>What people consider successful is as diverse as people themselves. Some people mimic their favorite rap mogul who drives a Bentley. Kids in the fifties started using "rock and roll" terms, much to the horror of their parents.</div><div>
</div><div>ETA: I pushed send before I was done!</div><div>
</div><div>So anyway, I have never met anyone who thinks about this too! My friends *do* call me 'Nerd Alert' though! Haha.</div><div>
</div><div>I am not really a fan of Eminem, but I totally recognize and appreciate his talented wordplay and rhythm. Much as I would appreciate Shakespeare, in fact!</div>

scarlettc27 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:cea92382-5022-43e1-95fe-81d7f90018f0">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]Contractions are people being lazy and combining words. In fact we have entire words and tenses designed for speech.
Posted by em01092[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Er, y<span style="line-height:normal;" class="Apple-style-span">es, contractions are lazy. Nearly every word we speak in English could be considered lazy by that exacting standard. Contractions are useful, and have probably been around as long as spoken language has been around. Can you imagine how stuffy you would sound if you never used contractions??</span></div><div><span style="line-height:normal;" class="Apple-style-span">
</span></div><div><div style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;background-color:initial;background-image:none;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;color:#1f1f1f;font:normal normal normal 11px/14px Arial, sans-serif;text-align:left;line-height:normal;">Also, I've totally scandalized my FMIL (who is northern) by insisting that "y'all" is actually one of the most useful contractions in the English language. It's the second person plural we've always needed!</div>
</div>

kinsey0628 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:872db017-950b-41d9-83a6-beca67dfe440">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE] the way we communicate with each other (whether written in French, signed in ASL, or spoken in an African click language) carries with it other clues and signals about your status to those with whom you attempt to communicate.

Kids in the fifties started using "rock and roll" terms, much to the horror of their parents
Posted by cmhurst[/QUOTE]

Yes! I am definitely a nerd for words and language. :)

I love your point about how we speak carrying clues about the status we are trying to convey. It's clear from the thread that all the text and abbreviation speak is NOT considered or perceived well by... well, at least the people on this message board, and whatever broader demographic we represent.

And the whole "rock and roll" thing is EXACTLY what I'm thinking about. Their parents were horrified by it... doesn't it even word-wise have some meaning/derivation relating to sex? Like roll = sex or something? Nowadays "Rock and Roll" is just accepted like it's nothing.

WE are all annoyed by the text/Twitter abbreviations, but I just wonder what it will be like when these kids are all adults.

FTR, I truly cannot understand what the HELL people are saying on Twitter. It's so abbreviated and symboled-up, I really don't get it, it's like a foreign language to me.

Simply Fated · February 2012

The future of our language is in the hands of the adults who condone children purposely misspelling words out if laziness and apathy. Is this really the direction you WANT our language heading in?

kinsey0628 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:ba8a1244-3839-49c3-9914-b47d85181608">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]The future of our language is in the hands of the adults who condone children purposely misspelling words out if laziness and apathy. Is this really the direction you WANT our language heading in?
Posted by Simply Fated[/QUOTE]

I don't really know how to respond to this. <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-embarassed.gif" border="0" alt="Embarassed" title="Embarassed" />

ETA: Actually I read your post wrong the first time. I was seeing the emphasis on the word "YOU" and envisioning that Uncle Sam poster, "I want YOU for the army" where he is pointing that aggressive/angry finger. Haha.

Now I see you are saying is that where I WANT the language to go. I guess I'm just saying I feel that IS where it's going, no matter what I want. And I also am not totally sure I really think that it IS about laziness or apathy.

Simply Fated · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:5951f171-a83b-4594-86e0-f695bbcd8551">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Grammar! : And I also am not totally sure I really think that it IS about laziness or apathy.
Posted by kinsey0628[/QUOTE]

It is.

kinsey0628 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:115d0d7f-3fbf-4d7a-8f9b-9f64eab8a908">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Grammar! : It is.
Posted by Simply Fated[/QUOTE]

Ha ha. Okay!

scarlettc27 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:ba8a1244-3839-49c3-9914-b47d85181608">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]Is this really the direction you WANT our language heading in?
Posted by Simply Fated[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Our language is 100% definitely going to change. If it didn't, we still would be speaking like this:</div><div>
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="text-align:left;color:#000000;font-family:Times;line-height:normal;font-size:medium;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align:left;">"The Reve answerde and seyde, "Stynt thy clappe, </td></tr></tbody></table><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;line-height:normal;font-size:10px;" class="Apple-style-span"><table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="text-align:left;width:404px;color:#000000;font-family:Times;line-height:normal;font-size:medium;"><tbody><tr><td style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;">Lat be thy <a style="text-decoration:none;font-weight:normal;color:#1f1f1f;" href="http://www.librarius.com/gy.htm#lewed" target="gy" rel="nofollow">lewed</a> dronken <a style="text-decoration:none;font-weight:normal;color:#1f1f1f;" href="http://www.librarius.com/gy.htm#harlotrie" target="gy" rel="nofollow">harlotrye</a>, </td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;"> </td><td style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;"> </td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;">It is a <a style="text-decoration:none;font-weight:normal;color:#1f1f1f;" href="http://www.librarius.com/gy.htm#synne" target="gy" rel="nofollow">synne</a> and <a style="text-decoration:none;font-weight:normal;color:#1f1f1f;" href="http://www.librarius.com/gy.htm#eek" target="gy" rel="nofollow">eek</a> a greet folye
To apeyren any man or hym defame..."

</td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;"> </td><td style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;"> </td></tr></tbody></table></span><table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="text-align:left;color:#000000;font-family:Times;line-height:normal;font-size:medium;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align:left;">I'm sure if Chaucer heard us speak or saw us write, he wouldn't recognize his own language. Do you think that's really the direction he wanted his language heading in?

So who cares, right? As long as the people speaking it and the people hearing it understand each other, it won't matter if our great grandchildren spell things in what we in the early 21st century would consider correct.

For my own children, I would like them to have a good education, leading to high-paying and meaningful careers. In order to achieve that, they should learn to communicate in the way that is perceived to be the most educated in the time which they live.

Does that make sense?

</td><td style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="3" class="Apple-style-span" color="#1F1F1F"><span style="font-size:11px;line-height:14px;" class="Apple-style-span"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2" class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><span style="font-size:10px;line-height:normal;" class="Apple-style-span">

</span></font></span></font></td></tr></tbody></table></div>

scarlettc27 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:115d0d7f-3fbf-4d7a-8f9b-9f64eab8a908">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Grammar! : It is.
Posted by Simply Fated[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Haha! No, I think they are actually just trying to be "kewl" and impress all the other little 15 year olds reading their FB page! It takes a lot of creativity and hard work to create a language to speak to your peers in a way that your totally uncool parents can't read or understand easily... </div><div>
</div><div>ETA: SimplyFated, I LOVE your DALEK Valentine's Day signature. hahaha

</div>

scarlettc27 · February 2012

Kinsey,

One more thing:

Have you read Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson? I know you would love it! It's all about the evolution of the English language.

He wrote another one called Made in America, which is the evolution of the English language in America.

They are both awesome books for word nerds like us!

kinsey0628 · February 2012

CM, you are much better spoken than I.

I totally agree w/ everything you are saying.

I remember that Chaucer sh!t from high school. We read the "translated" or "updated English" version and I remember seeing the original text, thinking I could figure it out, but alas, I could NOT. The language has changed so much.

I think that's what I've been trying to say -- that as long as people understand each other, does it really matter?? The language IS changing.

At the same time though, YES, by all means, it's a valuable skill to have to be able to speak and write what is *currently* considered proper/correct grammar!

And I think it's funny too, what you're saying about the "kewl" kidz on FB inventing languages that us old ladies kan't understand

kinsey0628 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_grammar-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e92465b2-2fb9-450b-8a28-b7c82ba6d86dPost:baf6b5fc-cc5b-47be-9822-4c508561e150">Re: Grammar!</a>:
[QUOTE]Kinsey, One more thing: Have you read Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson? I know you would love it! It's all about the evolution of the English language. He wrote another one called Made in America , which is the evolution of the English language in America. They are both awesome books for word nerds like us! :)
Posted by cmhurst[/QUOTE]

No, I haven't! But thanks for the recomendation! I will look into them.

Speaking of which, despite my word-nerdiness, I actually have a hard time sitting and reading a book. I think *I* too am evolving with our culture of having the attention span of a gnat.

BUT, what I have found is that I love AUDIO books! I can listen to them, while doing other things, like dishes or the treadmill or driving, etc. I feel like this is another example of evolving language/communication because there are definitely those who scoff at audio books, saying they are not really the TRUE thing.

schumitgf · February 2012

Language and words are dynamic and ever evolving but it is the speed and quantity of the current change that is surprising. Evolution occurred for many reasons including the addition of new ideas, actions, devices etc but change due to sheer laziness is not a common reason. Spelling has given way to 'creative' spelling, cursive to keyboard manipulation, understanding the inner workings of mathematical formulas to calculators and the beauty of words has given way to text-speak.
My company has had to hire English majors purely to read over executive reports in order to ensure proper grammar and spellings are used. This was done in response to a presentation by mid-level managers that started out with the words 'Rite Whey' in the title.

Meghannsix · February 2012

My son's father's new wife is one of those people who purposely misspells things, and it makes me insane. She posts on FB several times a day, and constantly uses "dey" for "they", "babi" for "baby", "dem" for "them", "tomara" for "tomorrow", and so on. It just makes me laugh, I know she's not an idiot, well not a total idiot, but she portrays one on the internet. I just can't figure out why one would want to appear less intelligent than they are!

Grammar!

Re: Grammar!

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