Cohabitation.

monkeysip · July 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:dcb14382-8e35-4596-8a31-f308136634a0Post:5a51b166-032c-446d-972d-641f91df0e55">Re: Cohabitation.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Cohabitation. : Mystery of the person is talking about about the ontology, theology, and discovery. In song of songs, the 2 are lovers, in a holy way, yet there is still mystery. A woman is master of her own "mystery". Even though a couple may be married for 50 years, they can still maintain "mystery" in their own person, this is a good thing, which is motivation to continue to give of oneself to the other as they actively receive each other. This can remain though, with the ontological union that happens at marriage. Without that union, discovery of the mundane part of a person is more "fact". There isn't a gradual reveal, instead, its just "display" and it comes too early. There is not a binding commitment yet, so the safety isn't there. The freedom to enter marriage is essential. This overlaps with a few of the others I listed. If you can't say no, what does it mean to say yes? How free are you if you already have a financial investment? How free are you if you've built a home together for a year, where its a refuge from stress and place of safety, to have to give that up in addition to ending a relationship, in addition to all the other major upheavels of breaking of an engagement? A person's home base, while they may barely be there, is where most survival needs are met (food, water, shelter). It's an intrinsic instinct to protect that. When that is threatened as it is known and experienced (someone's gotta move, the other income leaves, etc) is a major impediment to freedom to the commitment. I talked about this awhile ago here, and someone responded that its not that big of a deal. The very next week there was a girl on another board who had some major red flags come up with her fiance, but she shared how difficult it would be to have to move out, etc. I've seen this issue become one the most predominant issues in engagements with the couples I meet with .
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Thanks for explaining. I understand your point about how already living together makes it harder to leave (when that might be the best option).

I'm still a little confused on the mystery of person concept. I don't really understand what living together has to do with this. I feel that the mundane of a person can reveal itself very quickly without living together. That doesn't make it less valuable or fruitful. When I've had serious health issues, FI has had to be exposed to my more mundane, or ugly side quite often. For example, there's not as much mystery left in a person when you spend hours with them while they're puking their guts out. But experiences like that only made him love me more, not see me as different or any less magically beautiful. I'm just saying that these "mundane" reveals can be fruitful outside of marriage as well. In fact, they prepare us for marriage.

Maybe I'm just still not understanding correctly. My brain's kind of fuzzy today. Instead of making you go on and on, perhaps you want to direct me to a good read on this mystery of person issue?

And just to clarify, I'm not in any way defending cohabitation. I'm just still a little confused with a few of the arguments you laid out (while others were entirely sound and good arguments).

professorscience · July 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:dcb14382-8e35-4596-8a31-f308136634a0Post:05e0530b-77a7-42d9-9abe-710948eb1852">Re: Cohabitation.</a>:
[QUOTE]Other than premarital sex and 'scandal', what is a negative of cohabitation before marriage? I know couples who lived apart before marriage and some who lived together. All of those marriages are strong and the couples are happy.
Posted by cfaszews25[/QUOTE]

<div>There was an article that we talked about here recently about the "downsides" to cohabiting, and I can try to find it, but the one that stuck out to me the most was that sometimes (maybe often, I don't remember specific stats) cohabiting relationships just sort of "slide" into marriage when they probably should have ended WAY before that point, and might have if the couple hadn't already lived together. Kind of like the couple just sort of finds themselves planning a wedding one day.</div><div>
</div><div>Again, when done correctly, I don't have a problem with couples who live together before marriage. I think some cohabiting relationships lead to a very casual view of marriage as not a permanent thing, kind of like dating is often not a permanent thing, but I don't really have specific examples to back that up.</div>

agapecarrie · July 2012

TOB talks about it all over. (index will list spots of mystery of the person, communion, etc)

I think you're thinking too literally about mundane. This isn't as simple as mere data. (the yucky but loving action of observing someone who is sick). It's more about the presentation, the manner of revealing, hope, anticipation, risk, timing. Think art more than science. Music or art. You can list all the paint colors, types, ingredients, that went on the canvas, that's data. But that doesn't reveal or convey the mystery or intention of the painting.

This isn't a matter of the simple things you find out about each other when living together like toothpaste cap or toilet seat issues. When you're together long enough (without living together) , as you know, you learn them anyway. When you take care of a newborn, there is no "physical" mystery left--- diapers, spit up, snot, etc. But there is still the mystery of the person, who they are that is infinite.

There is an intimate connection with someone and their home, where they are safe. Having an inside look at that connection by actually sharing the same home without commitment prematurely is where the mystery is broken down.

All analogies fall short, some more than others. I haven't thought these through and that usually gets me in trouble here, but I'll give it a shot.

A lot of going out to dinner is the experience rather than the food. The atmosphere, service, and presentation. Without those things, the food may be fantastic, but if you're in a place with no air conditioning that smells, with a rude server that gives the food to you on a trash can lid, the food no longer matters. Cohabitation presents the food in a lesser than ideal experience.

monkeysip · July 2012

Thanks, Agape.

I had a suspicion that TOB would be the source of this. It's about time I cracked that baby open!

Resa77 · July 2012

I think there's also a big difference between a couple who's just dating, with no plans of marriage in the near future, moving in together vs an already engaged couple. I've known people who go live with one bf after the other, and eventually they view relationships/commitment in general as impermanent. One minute they're totally dedicated to their man, and the next they're onto the next. So I think for SOME people, serial cohabitation kinda trains you for divorce. Not trying to say it's the norm, but it happens.

While I wouldn't recommend it, I just think it's very different for two people who've already made the decision to marry to live together, than a couple who have no real intentions of lifelong commitment.

shawna127 · July 2012

No one is probably going to see this today but:

Honestly, I think this is the reason so many people have a hard time with the Catholic Church. Because it’s not an easy, feel good religion. The church commands that the believer do what is correct and right in the eyes of the Lord even when society says it is okay. The church teaches what it does because it is right and morally correct, not because they are the popular/accepted thing to do.

erin5286 · July 2012

I see what you're saying Resa.

The mindset of the individuals upon moving in together is what will really determine the effect it has on the couple's relationship - those couples who have already decided that they want to be fully committed to each other, whether a formal engagement or not, will (most likely) be affected much differently by living together than a couple who decides to live together, but hasn't otherwise decided how committed they really are to staying together.

shawna127 · July 2012

oops!!! Sorry, I definitely didn't see that there was a page 2 to this post!

Riss91 · July 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:dcb14382-8e35-4596-8a31-f308136634a0Post:fe31ca29-32bd-4a71-b64e-430a6d09a31c">Re: Cohabitation.</a>:
[QUOTE]I think there's also a big difference between a couple who's just dating, with no plans of marriage in the near future, moving in together vs an already engaged couple. I've known people who go live with one bf after the other, and eventually they view relationships/commitment in general as impermanent. One minute they're totally dedicated to their man, and the next they're onto the next. So I think for SOME people, serial cohabitation kinda trains you for divorce. Not trying to say it's the norm, but it happens. While I wouldn't recommend it, I just think it's very different for two people who've already made the decision to marry to live together, than a couple who have no real intentions of lifelong commitment.
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

This is where I struggle with it, too....

I think there is a big difference between a couple that has been together for 5-10 years, that gest engaged, and in the year leading up to the wedding, have a financial or other problem that might lead them to move in together for a temporary/short term period and a couple that hasn't been together very long that moves in without much of a long-term commitment.

ootmother2 · July 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:dcb14382-8e35-4596-8a31-f308136634a0Post:9bd9f1e2-207b-4d25-8146-c29c4f9360d3">Re: Cohabitation.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Cohabitation. : It looks like two people living together. I think the world would be a far better place if people stopped spending so much time judging other people's decisions and spent more time worrying about their own lives.
Posted by cfaszews25[/QUOTE]

late here but I agree.

W didn't live together before the wedding, probably because there wasn't time. We had 10 days between deciding to get married and the wedding.

I wouldn't comment on M because that is none of my business at all

sarahdactyI · August 2012

I'm sad that I missed the development of this thread!! But thank you to everyone who contributed and explained some things. It was great to read.

Cohabitation.

Re: Cohabitation.

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