WTF is up with Vegans?

nefariousmango · May 2010

I wanted to be a vegetarian, I don't really like meat and I have to work really hard to make it part of my diet. Unfortunately, when I don't eat red meat my body tries to bleed out, as in I was on a 1st name basis w/ the ER staff when I was a veggie. So my doctors said you must eat meat, I comply and feel much healthier (and don't have bleeding episodes!).

My TA for sociology is vegan, and I asked him at the end of the semester if we could have an open dialogue about his choices vi e-mail. I think it's great that he's living up to the standards of his personal ethics BUT I absolutely cannot respect his choices when he continuously denies my right to NOT live up to his standards. He sent me a recommendation for a vegan MD saying that this dr. has had 2 hours of nutritional training and will be able to find me a vegan diet that works. LMAO, seriously, 2 hours is enough training for that now? I went to a specialist, as in someone w/ an MD and a M.S. in nutrition, and she couldn't figure out any way for me to stay vegetarian and alive! I also have a world-renowned hematologist on my side, but I guess he's only had the basic 2 hours on nutrition so whatever.

I sent him some info about the evolutionary background of humans as omnivores (since he keeps insisting that we're naturally vegans) and about how apes in West Africa trade meat for sex partially because meat increases female fertility. I also explained the molecular basis of my disease a bit and how absortion of iron is significantly increased when it is accompanied by animal protein and vit. C. I skipped the article on how vegans have the shortest lifespan of any dietary group, because I don't want to make it personal for him.

His reply: Go see the vegan MD, seriously, he's had a full 2 hours of training on this and he says we're naturally vegan. Until you see him, I won't read your stupid science (okay, paraphrased a bit)

I'm not going to reply. I didn't respect him as a TA (he was a terrible teacher and a jerk to most of the students) and I was stupid to even try to have a judgment-free dialogue with him.

I really want to like vegans, but so far my experience has been that they're all a bit off. Anyone have sane, respectable vegans in their life?

Button5807 · May 2010

I think he's just a jerk and don't let him taint your view of vegans. I have a bunch of friends who are vegan and they refuse to push their lifestyle on anyone. They understand that people are curious about what they do, why and how and they're always happy to answer questions and try to educate those who want to know. They don't even bat an eyelash when I eat a hamburger in front of them.

desertsun · May 2010

I personally am a vegetarian, my sister and her husband are vegans, and the rest of our family, including my FI, are all omnivores.

Obviously I consider myself, my sister, and her husband to be sane, respectable people.

I know quite a lot of vegetarians/vegans who do not push their choice on others.

So, I think "WTF is up with vegans" is that you've had bad experiences.

Just because that type of diet doesn't work for YOU doesn't mean it's not okay for other people.

nefariousmango · May 2010

Desert- I think you misunderstood me. I think veganism is a fine choice, and I agree that it is very environmentally sound. While I don't agree that it is healthier, I do think it is extremely ethically sound and I fully support that logic. I WAS a vegetarian so obviously I'm okay with that, too. I just haven't met any vegans who are like your sister and her husband or the friends Button described, and I'm HOPING they're really out there and that I've just had bad experiences. That's why I asked if anyone knew any.

To be fair, I know a lot of vegans BUT they mostly either work for a vegan magazine or are connections from other large-animal rescues (and tend to be more on the extreme/ PeTA side of the spectrum).

It's like religions: I don't care what your religion is as long as you respect mine and don't spend most of our time together trying to convert me!

catemeg · May 2010

There definitely are some sane ones, and there are some who prosthelytize the lifestyle and feel holier-than-thou about their choice.

I guess it's sort of like religion - when it's a personal choice, that's great. When you start trying to convince me, I tune you out. I don't have to do what you do, and you don't have to do what I do.

I totally respect vegetarianism as a concept. Veganism is a little stranger to me, especially if you do a lacto-ovo vegetarianism - meaning nothing you're eating kills an animal. Milk and eggs! And oh, how it improves your balanced diet with just those two ingredients (plus it allows cheese, and I can't live without cheese).

My teacher in high school was a vegan, and we'd have him over for dinner now and again. I made really good portobello mushroom burgers with avocados and roasted red peppers and pesto. Everyone (even my carnivore brother) loved them! But my teacher was insistent that we all could have had steaks with mushrooms and just served him mushrooms and pasta and he wouldn't have minded.

And I have lots of sane vegetarian friends - the ones who can sit at a table with you and eat what they want, and not judge you for what you're eating.

chipypony · May 2010

I also haven't met any vegans that haven't been very pushy but then again, I like science and I have meta lot that don't believe we evoled to eat meat, maybe I run into them more because I work as a beef advocate for the NCBA. I don't care how people eat meat, but I don't like when people thing meat is bad for you. Don't buy meat from the grocery store if you don't want to, I raise my own animals for slaughter and when people ask I always point them to farmers markets and farms that sell their animals directly to people. But thats just me, I don't care if people eat meat or not, but I don't like the misconceptions that people have about where their food comes from when they cite people like Michael Pollan. Anyway, this is a discussion I will stay out of

bethsmiles · May 2010

I've had good and bad experiences with vegans and vegetarians. Personally I wouldn't become either one, its just not for me. I hate it when people bug me about the ethics of it because I don't think I'm a bad person for eating meat and I don't think they are a better person for not eating meat. Vegans/Vegetarians only bother me when they are disrespectful towards me because I don't live by their beliefs.

desertsun · May 2010

I agree -- let everyone decide for themselves, and as long as we're not judging each other or forcing our views on others, it's all good.

FWIW, most vegan/vegetarians I know have the same attitude I do. I rarely run into someone who goes around trying to convert people. When ASKED, most of us will share our opinions.

It's tricky to have conversations about it though, b/c it's very easy for it to escalate into a debate.

So I'm not trying to convert anyone here, just sharing my viewpoint and experience. So Nefarious can see that not all veggies are "off."

For me, it's not about ethics or the environment. It's not a political statement. It's a personal choice, one that I think every person has a right to make for him or herself. Every individual's diet and health is their own business and I don't feel I have a right to judge or dictate to anyone else.

For myself, I just don't like to eat animals. I don't mind eating things they produce naturally that don't necessitate killing the animal (hence, lacto-ovo). I don't have a problem wearing leather shoes. I simply do not like eating once-living flesh.

Also FWIW, according to my doctor, who I've been with for 5 years, who I see for a phsyical every year and blood tests every other year, I'm in excellent health. I've never broken a bone or been anemic, and I've been lacto-ovo for 14 of my 28 years. Until I have a health problem that is undoubtedly related to my diet, I don't plan on changing it. I do plan on letting my FI feed our future children meat if they want it.

See? Not vegan, but totally sane, respectable, and not at all "off."

nefariousmango · May 2010

Desert, I think you're still missing my point but whatevs. I don't think veggies are "off" but I do think some vegans are. I was a veggie, I lived on a farm with five other veggies for over a year, I make mean vegan cupcakes, and I'd like to think I'm relatively sane :-)

Chipy- I'm with you on the buying meat directly from the farmer/rancher.

jeanacorina · May 2010

There are sane vegans in the world. I would love to work my way toward cutting out cheese (most dairy doesn't agree with me anyway, I really should be vegan). I think I'd be a sane vegan. I'm already a sane vegetarian (as far as I know).

It just so happens that a lot of people in this world (not just vegans, but think of some religious/political groups too) take their beliefs very seriously, which is fine. But they try to press those beliefs on others. And I disagree with that.

It's just something he feels strongly about, and for some people a vegan lifestyle/vegetarian diet choice is like a religion... or even political affiliation. It's not a trait of vegans, but veganism appeals to many people with certain personality traits I guess.

Mainly the pushy, holier-than-thou trait.

I was a member of a vegan/vegetarian website for a while... and there were plenty of sane vegans. But there were also a handful who were loud-mouthed and preachy. Just ignore him. You need to live your life the best way you know how. You can't live it by someone else's standards.

loopy82 · May 2010

Interesting post.

My mom's side of the family are big into raising beef cattle. Well one of my (2nd) cousins decided to become a vegetarian. My aunt (her grandma) "blames" my cousins mom for my cousin becoming a vegetarian. I just find it funny that my aunt is treating it like my cousin became a drug addict or something of the like.

I have met one vegan that I know of. She is a bit off, but then again she was off before she was a vegan so....

I have no problem with vegetarians or vegans for that matter.

I could be a 90% vegetarian pretty easily. There have been times that I have noticed that its been days since I've eaten meat.

chipypony · May 2010

I have the opposite problem, I find I have gone days without eatting any recognizable vegetable matter and pretty much every meal is meaty. I don't mind adults who choose this lifestyle, but I have met several people who are not vegetarians who raise their children vegetarian and keep them from making the choice even through middle/high school. I don't think thats fair

loopy82 · May 2010

I am not intentionally avoiding meat when this happens, it just happens and when it does It doesn't happen super often.

I don't know if I've ever met someone who was raised a vegetarian or who is raising their child vegetarian.

jeanacorina · May 2010

Yeah, I plan to raise my kids vegetarian until they're old/mature enough to make the decision themselves. I also plan to do even more research on a balanced vegetarian diet than I have done for myself alone because I think it's important to know what you're feeding your kids.

I don't think that's unfair. I think it is being conscious of the fact that eating vegetarian is not offensive to my future kids' future morals, whether they choose to remain vegetarian or not. I could not, by my own conscience, feed my children something that I would not eat.

I don't think I should "force" them to eat meat (as opposed to "forcing" them to be vegetarian). So.... whatever. As long as my family is healthy and happy, it's nobody else's business.

Now, what the rest of the world does (including FI) is up to them. That's cool.

My dad's family raises their own cows, pigs, chickens, and what-have-you. I've seen the process. Apparently I'm defective or something, because I'm the only one who grew up and decided I couldn't eat something that had once been a living thing... no matter how well it was treated (sure, the cows are "like pets" but I wouldn't eat a dog or cat.... so.... no thanks). It has taken 3 years for my parents to leave me alone about being vegetarian... but they still feel awkward about it and feel the need to "explain" it to other people (including waiters at restaurants... ugh), and the whole "you shouldn't force your kids to be vegetarian" thing is quite a hot topic.

I hate to get all debate-like, but this can be a very volatile subject for some people. Especially when you start talking about how folks plan to raise their kids.

paintgirl · May 2010

Jeana I'd be interested in what you learn about vegetarian diets for kids. I have a niece who has a food intolerance for a protein in chicken, beef, pork... You name it. They've just learned she's also allergic to peanuts, so there goes the stand by peanut butter sandwich. My sister is going to find a nutrionist to help them figure out how to feed this poor kid.

bakes218 · May 2010

I am also vegetarian. I am no a strict vegan, but I don't do milk or eggs, just cheese once in awhile. I don't think you can let a few vegetarian/vegans who might be more pushy cloud you image of the whole group of us. There are some crazy and some sane in every group of people.

As far as reasons why people choose either way. I do not want to be told what is healthy for me, I want to choose that myself. I have done so much research and read so many books on this and I just can't get my mind around what is beneficial about meat. BF and family all eat meat and I would NEVER push my beliefs on them. They tease me and I tease them but that is as far as it goes. Also, people can raise their children anyway they want, lucky for us, we live in America!

To each his own...

Narwhal · May 2010

BF's ex stepmom's new boyfriend's son (*phew*) is a vegan, and he makes the best steak I've ever eaten. He's a chef.

desertsun · May 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_wtf-up-vegans?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:2c937e3b-f468-42c2-bb52-cf043f858e04Post:518df2ef-8c4d-479f-8ec4-775573703884">Re: WTF is up with Vegans?</a>:
[QUOTE]Desert, I think you're still missing my point but whatevs. I don't think veggies are "off" but I do think some vegans are. I was a veggie, I lived on a farm with five other veggies for over a year, I make mean vegan cupcakes, and I'd like to think I'm relatively sane :-) Chipy- I'm with you on the buying meat directly from the farmer/rancher.
Posted by nefariousmango[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I understood that you were distinguishing between vegans and vegetarians. </div><div>
</div><div>I just think that distinction is b.s.</div><div>
</div><div>I think the "off" vegans you've known are probably "off" as people, and not due to their choice of diet.</div><div>
</div><div>My point is that you shouldn't paint everyone in a group with the same brush. It's called stereotyping, and it can be really offensive.</div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

nefariousmango · May 2010

Well, Desert, I'm sorry I offended you. I did not mean to.

Paintgirl- that's crazy about your niece, I hope they find a workable diet for her! I can't imagine trying to feed a kid with such overreaching allergies, I'm sure it's no fun at all.

Narwhal- That's hilarious!

chipypony · May 2010

I baby sat a girl who was physically allergic to something in meat, but she could eat fish so her parents cooked things mostly vegetarian for her but she ate some sort of fish at least once every week or two just to get some animal protein. I had some great dishes at their house though!

What I ment by the making your kids vegetarian is, my former trainer that I use to ride for had two kids and she wanted them both to be vegetarians, but both her and her husband still consumed massive quantities of meat and she would not let the kids try any meat or any sugars or fast food no matter what, even when the kids started asking around age 12ish. I went to McDonalds after a show with them one time and she would not let the kids get anything because she didn't want them to eat fast food. That just seemed odd to me.

bakes218 · May 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_wtf-up-vegans?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:2c937e3b-f468-42c2-bb52-cf043f858e04Post:5942aeca-d649-425a-9638-8b7c88736fd0">Re: WTF is up with Vegans?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: WTF is up with Vegans? : I understood that you were distinguishing between vegans and vegetarians. I just think that distinction is b.s. I think the "off" vegans you've known are probably "off" as people, and not due to their choice of diet. My point is that you shouldn't paint everyone in a group with the same brush. It's called stereotyping, and it can be really offensive.
Posted by desertsun[/QUOTE]

Nicely said desert.

paintgirl · May 2010

For those who don't consume milk products, do you drink soy milk or almond milk? Something like that? I'm trying to imagine life without cereal and milk for my coffee. (Soy milk kind of curdles in hot coffee - ick.)

I didn't eat red meat, pork or chicken for over a decade as a teenager. I knew some cows. It seemed wrong. I ate fish because I had to appease my parents.

bakes218 · May 2010

I LOVE almond milk. It makes cereal a little more creamy. I can use it for cooking also.

Button5807 · May 2010

Paint - I'm allergic to cow protein so I'm not supposed to consume anything from a cow I absolutely LOVE almond milk, soy being a close second. I tried goats for a while but it's a bit thick for me.

jeanacorina · May 2010

I drink soy milk. I'm sensitive to lactose and try to avoid it when I can. I don't drink milk or eat ice cream (hence my recent search for a good non-dairy ice cream-- found it!). I eat cheese in moderation because I LOVE it, but if I could find a decent non-dairy substitute I'd use that instead.

I like soy milk. At first it was a little odd, but I stopped expecting it to taste like cow's milk and then it was easier. It has a nice, nutty sort of flavor that I like, but it's creamy and works perfectly for cereal.

There are many things I've found as a vegetarian that you just shouldn't expect to taste exactly like its non-vegan counterpart. It might add certain qualities you're looking for (creamy, chewy, crunchy, salty, savory, etc).

chipypony · May 2010

Soy milk actually isnt so bad, my sister was drinking it for awhile but then she switched to rice milk and that was just too watery for me. I don't like milk, if it wasn't for cereal I probably would consume no milk what so ever (aside from milk mixed in things and cooked). Personally I think its disgusting tasting and even when I was little I would not drink milk, always water. My BF's family only drinks goats milk (good for people who can't have lactose) because they raise their own dairy goats, I looooove cooking with it (makes the best homemade mac and cheese) but I still struggle with it in my cereal.

hetshup · May 2010

I personally think that some people are vegan b\c it's the "hip" thing to do. Not anyone here, but in my experience, that can sometimes be the case. Those people that are vegan b\c it's hip and Fast Food Nation and Omnivore's Delima told them so, I find are a little more "off". They are likely always like that, but its manifesting through veganism. In highs school, when I was swimming close to 5 hours a day, I HAD to eat animal protein. There were times that I was eating close to 5000 calories a day, and it was the only way I could get enough protein into my system. We had a nutritionist monitoring our diet as well, but I had someone just rip me up one side and down another b\c I was eating meat. I don't think it was me, I think it was that person.

Chipy, my favorite thing is to buy meat from farmers markets, I actually really like gamey meat like deer and the farmers mkt meat I find is much leaner. I also love lamb, that's right I like baby animals.

OpalineTowers · May 2010

I've been a vegetarian for almost 8 years now. I don't even have an opinion really about people eating meat. I certainly could get off the couch and exercise more, so it's not my place to point a finger at people's health habits. It's a personal choice.

My sister is a vegan. She turns her prissy little nose up when I eat cheese and tells me it's unhealthy.

It just depends on the person. There are unaccepting people who eat meat, vegetable, and both. Everybody should just lighten up and let people do there own thing...

nefariousmango · May 2010

I actually drink a fair amount of almond milk, I think it's a good alternative and the unsweetened stuff is extremely low cal.

Hetshup- The town I grew up in (and commute to now) is very "hip" and when I worked as a lifeguard at a fancy health club our #1 call was women fainting in the locker room because they hadn't eaten enough in days. They'd often try to refuse the orange juice because it had too many calories or wasn't organic or was packaged in plastic... and these are the sorts of vegans I know! They put their self-assigned health choices ahead of their actual health, and I think that's very "off"! It can all be done healthfully, but these diets can also excuse eating disorders and other body image/food problems. Veganism, Vegetarianism, eating all organic and local, eating low-carb or low-cal or both, eating only juice or otherwise "cleansing"... a lot of diet trends have the potential to cause health problems but the vegans I know are the most passionately self-righteous dietary group I've encountered.

I also LOVE elk! We buy elk brawts at the farmer's market in the summer, and I stock up on frozen chicken, beef, and bison when the market closes for the winter. Definitely the best meat!

[Deleted User] · May 2010

I just have to say that your teacher isn't being very teacher-like. He's just being an a$$hole, in my opinion - and I don't think it's because he's vegan.

nefariousmango · May 2010

Jeter- I agree 100%

WTF is up with Vegans?

Re: WTF is up with Vegans?

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