Ceremony Music...

Eliz77 · June 2012

...I know there have been several threads about music! I wanted to share what I am thinking and see what you guys think:

Prelude: Bridal Prayer, Copeland (but we may not have a singer, so 2nd choice woud be The Prayer, Sager and Foster)

Entrance: Bridal Party: either Bridal Chorus, Wagner or Ode to Joy, Beethoven

Me: Canon in D (or Rondeau, Mourt)

If I don't use Canon D, I think I'll have BP enter to it.

After Vows: Wedding Song-There is Love (or With this Ring, Copeland)

Recessional: Trumpet Voluntary, Purcell (or Prelude in Classic Style or Wedding March...so many choices!)

We meet with music director Monday so have to pick soon! Seems everyone usually uses Cannon in D and I think it sounds the best...originally wanted something else, but now not so sure! Anyone not using a singer? Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!

professorscience · June 2012

I find it odd that you would have the more... "fanfare-y" songs for your WP and then you process to something more subdued. I guess in my mind, even though I know it's not all about the bride, I wanted the music to sort of fit the mood, and my walk down the aisle was the reallyreally joyous part.

HandBanana · June 2012

Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring is always my fave for the Bride.

ootmother2 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:72e69f94-91b0-4cfc-ba60-a907ffeb8ebe">Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]...I know there have been several threads about music! I wanted to share what I am thinking and see what you guys think: Prelude: Bridal Prayer, Copeland (but we may not have a singer, so 2nd choice woud be The Prayer, Sager and Foster) Entrance: Bridal Party: either Bridal Chorus, Wagner or Ode to Joy, Beethoven Me: Canon in D (or Rondeau, Mourt) If I don't use Canon D, I think I'll have BP enter to it. After Vows: Wedding Song-There is Love (or With this Ring, Copeland) Recessional: Trumpet Voluntary, Purcell (or Prelude in Classic Style or Wedding March...so many choices!) We meet with music director Monday so have to pick soon! Seems everyone usually uses Cannon in D and I think it sounds the best...originally wanted something else, but now not so sure! Anyone not using a singer? Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!
Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]

Did we discuss music before? lol

We did Canon for the BP, The Bridal March for bride and Bridal Chorus for exit.

The Wedding Song was one I loved most! So many memories :)

Good luck with the music director.

btw, we used singer, organist, flutist and trumpeter and it was awesome

Eliz77 · June 2012

Well, I've posted a couple of threads about music! LOL...

We had a list of music to choose from and the March isn't on there which I thought was odd.

professorscience · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:e2de710d-6f5d-48e5-8460-013a7b89191f">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]Well, I've posted a couple of threads about music! LOL... We had a list of music to choose from and the March isn't on there which I thought was odd.
Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]

<div>Some churches don't allow it.</div><div>
</div><div>ETA: Or they just forgot it. =)</div>

Eliz77 · June 2012

I'm thinking they forgot because it is listed under recessional and not entrance. I'll ask her Monday!

agapecarrie · June 2012

The Wagner march is not allowed in the Catholic church. Some people choose not to enforce it.

In the opera, It accompanies the couple to the bridal chamber, where she curses him to death by speaking his name, they don't consumnate their marriage. There are also insinuations of mocking her for wearing white.

I wouldn't allow "the prayer" or "the wedding song" at my parish. Secular songs, not liturgical.

ootmother2 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:77474671-9b76-4d93-86ca-bb1bd9c9838f">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm thinking they forgot because it is listed under recessional and not entrance. I'll ask her Monday!
Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]

If you want it, do ask! It is quite lovely as is The Wedding Song.

Let me know

GL

ootmother2 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:87cf704e-31cb-4183-acd5-a951efad3771">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]The Wagner march is not allowed in the Catholic church. Some people choose not to enforce it. In the opera, It accompanies the couple to the bridal chamber, where she curses him to death by speaking his name, they don't consummate their marriage. There are also insinuations of mocking her for wearing white. I wouldn't allow "the prayer" or "the wedding song" at my parish. Secular songs, not liturgical.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I have heard the Wagner march in at least half of the Catholic weddings I have attended so it is technically allowed. Even my parish here in NYC allows it and it's been done at St. Patricks as well. I think the parish or at least has the say, not the music director. What you personally would allow is irrelevant.other than in your particular church.

agapecarrie · June 2012

actually, the church as a whole does not allow it. I promise you this is the case. It is up to each parish/music director/priest to enforce that rule.

There's been lots of squirly liturgical things that have happened all over. That does not mean it is actually allowed by the wider church.

agapecarrie · June 2012

The Entrance

48. This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

If there is no singing at the Entrance, the antiphon given in the Missal is recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a reader; otherwise, it is recited by the Priest himself, who may even adapt it as an introductory explanation (cf. no. 31).

This is from the GIRM. THis is what the church wants. So the fact that there is instrumental music only is already a concession, allowed for "cultural choices".

ootmother2 · June 2012

Well, I for one am not going to go tell the new Cardinal Dolan what he should do. But I guess that's just me.

Riss91 · June 2012

The point is that we should always try to do what is appropriate for the Church. We shouldn't desire to skirt around rules for frivolous reasons. If the Church deems something inappropriate, I personally wouldn't use it, regardless of what my priests might say. It's pretty clear that priests, bishops, cardinals aren't perfect and don't know or enfore all the rules, though they should.

ootmother2 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:7f67f987-0870-499a-8285-f8f9a0581c07">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]The point is that we should always try to do what is appropriate for the Church. We shouldn't desire to skirt around rules for frivolous reasons. If the Church deems something inappropriate, I personally wouldn't use it, regardless of what my priests might say. It's pretty clear that priests, bishops, cardinals aren't perfect and don't know or enfore all the rules, though they should.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

Riss, I know you love attending the Latin mass which was pretty much done for in ordinary parishes after Vatican II. It's perfectly valid and absolutely your choice. The closest church I can find if I wanted to attend that is some church out on Long Island, about an hour's drive from the city.

If brides are given more modern day music (I'm pretty certain your church wouldn't) I think it should be their choice given that their priest, bishop or cardinal approves it. It's a matter of choice for everyone and I would never claim that I knew better, or even that you knew better than my own church.

Riss91 · June 2012

My church, and my mass preferance has nothing to do with anything I've stated. If the Church, as a whole, has a rule, each parish should be following it. If the head of a specific parish chooses to let things slide, I don't think that nullifies the rule. It's not a matter of who is better than anyone else. I never made that claim. As individualas, we should also maintain Church standards, whether our specific priest allows them to be bent.

Latin mass is offered in NYC, I've been many times.

professorscience · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:6662cfdf-f905-4fb6-99b1-a69f837766a0">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ceremony Music... : Riss, I know you love attending the Latin mass which was pretty much done for in ordinary parishes after Vatican II. It's perfectly valid and absolutely your choice. The closest church I can find if I wanted to attend that is some church out on Long Island, about an hour's drive from the city.<strong> If brides are given more modern day music (I'm pretty certain your church wouldn't) I think it should be their choice given that their priest, bishop or cardinal approves it. It's a matter of choice for everyone and I would never claim that I knew better, or even that you knew better than my own church.</strong>
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

<div>I disagree with this only because I think the music should enhance the ceremony and the meaning behind it. And I say this having just this last weekend been a bridesmaid for a "cradle" Catholic who kept complaining that "The Church is stupid and won't let me _________________." It was weird that I, who have only been Catholic a little over a year, felt the need to defend and explain our faith to her.</div><div>
</div><div>I think before her wedding I would have sided with you, OOT. I am REALLY into music, and there are a lot of secular songs that I think would really give meaning to a particular couple on their wedding day, but it's not just about the couple on that day. You're agreeing to not only love one another, but to keep God in your marriage. So if this is really a three-person relationship, all three members should have a say.</div><div>
</div><div>Of course, we were also totally hipster and ruled out things like the Wedding March because "it's been overdone." :p</div>

ootmother2 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:8c2b1487-434d-445e-a17d-45ded3744582">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]My church, and my mass preferance has nothing to do with anything I've stated. If the Church, as a whole, has a rule, each parish should be following it. If the head of a specific parish chooses to let things slide, I don't think that nullifies the rule. It's not a matter of who is better than anyone else. I never made that claim. As individualas, we should also maintain Church standards, whether our specific priest allows them to be bent. Latin mass is offered in NYC, I've been many times.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

Where Riss? I've only seen the one advertised in the NYT on Saturday and that's outside of the city. I prefer going to my regular church but I would love to see another one. I have old "double sectioned" prayer books that belonged to my grandmother.

ootmother2 · June 2012

sorry, P&R

I have to prepare for court now. I'll check back tonight.

Thanks

HandBanana · June 2012

Show me a discussion on Catholuc wedding ceremony music and I will show you an argument about Wagner's Bridal March and secular vs non secular music. In all fairness, I sometimes feel that we are on the verge of a schism and the foundation of The American Catholic Church not based on wedding ceremony music but much deeper issues stemming from the as ppointment of Pope Benedict.

professorscience · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:095aef5e-bf82-4663-86c2-d861beebce6f">Re:Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]Show me a discussion on Catholuc wedding ceremony music and I will show you an argument about Wagner's Bridal March and secular vs non secular music. In all fairness, I sometimes feel that we are on the verge of a schism and the foundation of The American Catholic Church not based on wedding ceremony music but much deeper issues stemming from the as ppointment of Pope Benedict.
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]

<div>I know, it seems a pretty silly argument in the grand scheme of things.</div><div>
</div><div>I know there is already a church in Dallas that claims to be "American Catholic" and does all kinds of things that are not in communion with Rome.</div><div>
</div><div>And I actually thought (and think) that Pope Benedict has done a lot to reach out to some of the more disenfranchised Catholics.</div>

agapecarrie · June 2012

There is recently popular saying "Save the Liturgy, save the world" .

Sometimes, just an experience of the Holy and seeing it revered by and kept sacred can be evangelistic.

HandBanana · June 2012

In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:Show me a discussion on Catholuc wedding ceremony music and I will show you an argument about Wagner's Bridal March and secular vs non secular music. In all fairness, I sometimes feel that we are on the verge of a schism and the foundation of The American Catholic Church not based on wedding ceremony music but much deeper issues stemming from the as ppointment of Pope Benedict.Posted by HandBananaI know, it seems a pretty silly argument in the grand scheme of things.I know there is already a church in Dallas that claims to be "American Catholic" and does all kinds of things that are not in communion with Rome.And I actually thought and think that Pope Benedict has done a lot to reach out to some of the more disenfranchised Catholics. Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]

I agree that he has tried to bring back Catholics. I think it is his methods and his attempt to return to much more fundamental ideas. The Church needs to evolve and develop to stay relevent.

lalaith50 · June 2012

[QUOTE]The Wagner march is not allowed in the Catholic church.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
Carrie, once again, I'm very sorry to say this, as I really don't intend to pick on <em>you,</em> but your adamant and know-it-all wording does not do YOU nor the subject matter matter any service.<div>
</div><div>You have yet to provide any actual proof of your quoted statement. The quote from the GIRM proves <em>nothing</em>, as not a single instrumental song that anyone uses for their wedding has been approved by "the conference of bishops or diocesan bishop." (That 4th option from the GIRM is a point of GREAT discussion among many church musicians- what exactly does that mean, as the US bishops do not collectively go around "approving" ANY collection of music. There simply isn't a process for it. Therefore, how can things be "unapproved?" There used to be a "black list" of music, but it could certainly be argued that more recent church legislation has taken precedence over it.)</div><div>
</div><div>Perhaps the Wagner march is an "unwise" choice, and it <em>could</em> be argued that it is innappropriate to use in the liturgy based on its background, but many, many, many pieces that we currently use today <em>started off</em> as secular pieces- think Beethovens 9th --> Joyful, Joyful. </div><div>In that sense, Wagner's Wedding March is no more innapropriate than Canon in D, since when they are both looked at their most basic level, they are simply instrumental pieces of music, neither "approved" nor "disapproved" by the US conference of bishops, although a particular bishop could permit them or not, and some may have. </div><div>While I would certainly never advocate the use of the Wagner march, the statement "The Wagner march is not allowed in THE Catholic Church" is simply not correct.</div>

HandBanana · June 2012

For the record I do think the church should be able to tell you what music is at your Catholic wedding. I am more conservative when it comes to basic rules such as attending mass, service to the poor, and being educated about your faith. I have issue with obvious current events where Pope Benedict has no plan of allowing women to become ordained, something that I thought Pope John Paul had been working toward.

agapecarrie · June 2012

There is nothing "know it all" by stating a very simple and well known fact. I'm in the middle of a class so I don't have my documents handy right now.

I would think that my history here that everything I've said regarding church teaching here has not been shown to be proven in error (one exception with a very recent change, and I took the correction) could be at least a good starting point that would give some credit to the statement.

Secular music is not allowed. That is a true statement. Wagner is a secular opera.

Classical music-- such as mozart, which has masses, IS allowed. That is the difference.

HandBanana · June 2012

I think this was touched on a long time ago. Carrie is awesome. Full of Catholic knowledge but her tone in online posts comes off as know it all. It is the internet. Sometimes there is tone in things we do not intend.

princessro07 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:a62504c3-585b-4731-ad97-016844bf93fb">Re:Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]For the record I do think the church should be able to tell you what music is at your Catholic wedding. I am more conservative when it comes to basic rules such as attending mass, service to the poor, and being educated about your faith. I have issue with obvious current events where Pope Benedict has no plan of allowing women to become ordained, something that I thought Pope John Paul had been working toward.
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]
The Church for a long time has stated that the ordination of priests is for men only, and I want to say Pope John Paul II wrote something supporting that (but don't quote me on that). <div>
</div><div>Statements that the Church needs to adapt or change to stay relevent always make me uncomfortable. Anyone who thinks the Church is in dange of becoming "irrelevent" needs to look deeper into Catholic teaching.</div><div>
</div><div>Sorry for the derail, there were just some comments in this thread that raised my eyebrows. As far as music goes, I'd been given to understand Wagner's March wasn't allowed but again I don't have any sources to cite on that.</div>

HandBanana · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:ed4445fc-b944-441d-a608-8e157a536d67">Re:Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music... : The Church for a long time has stated that the ordination of priests is for men only, and I want to say Pope John Paul II wrote something supporting that (but don't quote me on that). Statements that the Church needs to adapt or change to stay relevent always make me uncomfortable. Anyone who thinks the Church is in dange of becoming "irrelevent" needs to look deeper into Catholic teaching. Sorry for the derail, there were just some comments in this thread that raised my eyebrows. As far as music goes, I'd been given to understand Wagner's March wasn't allowed but again I don't have any sources to cite on that.
Posted by princessro07[/QUOTE]

Their bureaucracy will make them irrelevant.

Trust me. At this time in my life I am looking very deeply into Catholic teaching. If I have a daughter, do I want her raised in a faith that treats her as second class because of bureaucratic rules within its system which contradicts actual Catholic philosophy surrounding the Blessed Mother?

lalaith50 · June 2012

Carrie- I'll spare you the trouble. You won't find a document that explicitly forbids secular music in such a way that Wagner's March would be any MORE excluded than Canon in D. Feel free to let us know if you do find otherwise.

(You will, however, find such gems as, "[music for use in Church...] must not be fashioned even in their external forms after the manner of profane pieces." from Tra le Sollecitudini. ...Life Teen, anyone ;-) )

You'll find documents that say the music MUST be "sacred," but my point is, so many of the songs that we do actually aren't "sacred. (Trumpet Voluntary, etc.) Some dioceses or parishes might forbid "The Wedding March" for its particular secular affiliation or Wagner's anti-Semitism, but as a whole, no, "the Catholic Church" has never forbidden it any more than any non-explicitly-sacred instrumental piece.

Riss91 · June 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:7ef386c0-1d0b-458f-a18e-91fa5d7eac76">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ceremony Music... : Where Riss? I've only seen the one advertised in the NYT on Saturday and that's outside of the city. I prefer going to my regular church but I would love to see another one. I have old "double sectioned" prayer books that belonged to my grandmother.
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]
<p style="margin:0px 0px 1.2em;font-size:12pt;padding:0px;" class="style6"> </p><p style="margin:0px 0px 1.2em;font-size:12pt;padding:0px;" class="style6"><strong>
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Mass Time: Sun 8:30 am
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Web site: <a style="color:#47503b;text-decoration:none;padding:0px;margin:0px;" href="http://parishesonline.com/scripts/HostedSites/Org.asp?ID=10089" rel="nofollow">http://www.innocents.com</a>
Priest: Fr McBride</p> <p style="margin:0px 0px 1.2em;padding:0px;">St Agnes Church
Location: <a style="color:#47503b;text-decoration:none;padding:0px;margin:0px;" href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=143%2beast%2b43rd%2bstreet%2b?%2bnew%2byork%2bcity,%2bny%2b10017&sll=40.726186,-73.892155&sspn=0.053207,0.150375&ie=utf8&ll=40.753889,-73.974895&spn=0.006648,0.018797&z=16&iwloc=addr" rel="nofollow">143 East 43rd Street – New York City, NY 10017</a>
Mass Time: Sun 11am
Phone number: (212) 682-5722
Web site: <a style="color:#47503b;text-decoration:none;padding:0px;margin:0px;" href="http://parishesonline.com/scripts/HostedSites/Org.asp?ID=10089" rel="nofollow">http://parishesonline.com/scripts/HostedSites/Org.asp?ID=10089</a>
Priest: Fr McBride</p> Our Lady of Mount Carmel Church
Location <a style="color:#47503b;text-decoration:none;padding:0px;margin:0px;" href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=448%2beast%2b116th%2bstreet%2b?%2bnew%2byork%2bcity,%2bny%2b10029&sll=40.753889,-73.974895&sspn=0.006648,0.018797&ie=utf8&ll=40.797551,-73.934319&spn=0.006644,0.018797&z=16&iwloc=addr" rel="nofollow">448 East 116th Street – NEW YORK CITY, NY 10029</a>
Mass Time: Sun 10 am
Phone number: (212) 534-0681
Priest: Fr Tony Kelly SAC

St. Christopher Mission Chapel
Location: <a style="color:#47503b;text-decoration:none;padding:0px;margin:0px;" href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=soldiers%27%2bclub,%2b283%2blexington%2bave%2b?%2bnew%2byork,%2bny%2b&sll=40.783109,-73.951421&sspn=0.006645,0.018797&ie=utf8&z=16" rel="nofollow">Soldiers' Club, 283 Lexington Ave – New York, NY </a>10016
Mass Time: Sun 1:30 pm
Phone number: (212) 420-7269
Priest: SSPX – Fr Zendejas

Ceremony Music...

Re: Ceremony Music...

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