Not Engaged Yet

Ring drama...need solution.

My BF & I are thisclose to being officially engaged.  We've been talking about it for a few months, and we just went shopping-looking for the first time.  We didn't discuss a budget ahead of time, and we probably should have.  I found a setting online that I love, and would like to find something similar in a brick & mortar store.  With a completely reasonable (.6 carat) stone, the e-ring was about $1800 and the wedding band was $800.  I know that you shouldn't compare to your friends, but this is at the lower end of average for my social group,  except for a few people who got married when they were 19.

When we were shopping and he looked like he was going to throw up at some of the $3K sale prices, he mentioned that he was thinking more along the lines of $500.  And my heart stopped.  We have good jobs, but he has a lot more in his budget than I do - he owns his own condo, and has car payments and a bit of credit card debt that he's paying down.  He's from a small town where he says that most of his coworkers got their wedding rings from walmart or costco for under $800 - for the set.  And he actually asked me who I was trying to impress.  All I could think of saying is "myself!"  Oh, and he asked me why I thought I needed "the rock" - because I was looking at a 3/5 stone.

I love this man so much, and I'm so upset because I feel like one of these demanding girls that REQUIRES a certain size stone if she'll marry you.  But I'd rather marry him with no ring at all, than marry him with a ring from the promise ring section.  Please tell me that you guys have some words of advice!!

Re: Ring drama...need solution.

  • PaigeMcCPaigeMcC member
    Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2011

    You and your boyfriend need to sit down and have a frank talk about what you want.  You need to let him know what you're looking for in styles and cuts.  Go online and find some samples that you really love.  In the end it's up to him what he buys and he really shouldn't be telling you anyways (most people don't know the price of the gifts they recieve).  

    The price of the ring really shouldn't matter!!! Let him know what you think is nice and the rest is up to him.  Besides, how will you know what section it's from in the end anyways...and why does it really matter?  Isn't the important thing is that you're agreeing to spend your lives together - it should be about your relationship not about the ring!


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  • katanne9katanne9 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Do some ring research and sit down together have have a serious discussion about how much he should spend/what you really are looking for. Look only within that price range. He may just have sticker shock, or that may be all he is capable of spending.

    Also, for the record, I've seen some girls with some pretty nice rings from Costco/BJs. It's worth a look.
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_ring-dramaneed-solution?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:bdf3c417-d08e-4c66-b951-384e4d84c597Post:c9683dba-c120-4332-aa65-d5d5e112e333">Ring drama...need solution.</a>:
    [QUOTE]My BF & I are thisclose to being officially engaged.  We've been talking about it for a few months, and we just went shopping-looking for the first time.  We didn't discuss a budget ahead of time, and we probably should have.  I found a setting online that I love, and would like to find something similar in a brick & mortar store.  With a completely reasonable (.6 carat) stone, the e-ring was about $1800 and the wedding band was $800.  I know that you shouldn't compare to your friends, but this is at the lower end of average for my social group,  except for a few people who got married when they were 19. When we were shopping and he looked like he was going to throw up at some of the $3K sale prices, he mentioned that he was thinking more along the lines of $500.  And my heart stopped.  We have good jobs, but he has a lot more in his budget than I do - he owns his own condo, and has car payments and a bit of credit card debt that he's paying down.  He's from a small town where he says that most of his coworkers got their wedding rings from walmart or costco for under $800 - for the set.  And he actually asked me who I was trying to impress.  All I could think of saying is "myself!"  Oh, and he asked me why I thought I needed "the rock" - because I was looking at a 3/5 stone. I love this man so much, and I'm so upset because I feel like one of these demanding girls that REQUIRES a certain size stone if she'll marry you.  But I'd rather marry him with no ring at all, than marry him with a ring from the promise ring section.  Please tell me that you guys have some words of advice!!
    Posted by brewergirl[/QUOTE]

     I think you're overreacting. My center stone in my ring is 1/5 carat. My sisters accent stones are bigger than my center stone. Do I care? No. I know some people will judge, but I love my ring and that is all that matters to me. My FI and I went looking for the perfect ring, and we found it. My FI is in a design field and just would not accept a plain band with a rock stuck on it, so we looked and looked for the perfect ring and the perfect ring just happened to be designed so that a bigger stone would not fit in the setting.

    What matters anyway is the relationship. Some trinket, whether $500 or $5000 doesn't matter, the relationship is what matters. If that is solid, it really doesn't matter what the jewelry looks like. Just get plain bands and skip the engagement ring if you don't like the idea of a small diamond. That way no one will judge your small stone. JMHO. Take it or leave it.
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  • Ana_2985Ana_2985 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    I'm not sure what to think about this.  So I guess I have a few different opinions/words of advice.

    I agree with you that you shouldn't compare ring costs (or any costs) with your friends.  BUT neither should he.  The two of you should talk about what he/you can afford regardless of what other people spent or where they made their purchases.  I know when my FI first started looking at rings he had no idea how much they could cost.  But we talked about it and he decided that he was only going to purchase an engagement ring once in his life and he wanted it to be exactly what I wanted even if it meant spending a little more (still within his means though).  Has your BF thought of it like this?

    If it turns out that your FI's budget is still not enough to purchase the ring that you love I can think of two suggestions.  First, FI and I found the ring I loved at a mall chain.  We then had it custom made almost exactly (except better) for over $3000 less than what the mall ring cost.  You could try that.  And second, you could purchase from a jeweler that has a trade up policy.  That way you can buy a ring now that is in your FI's budget and then in a few years when you have more money you can trade in the ring and apply its value toward a new stone or setting.

    Like people always say, if you love your BF, you most likely will love whatever he gives you.  And anyone who would judge you based on how much your ring costs really isn't worth worrying about.

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  • Dmatthews450Dmatthews450 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    We have the opposite problem, he is extravagant and i am always shocked at his willingness to spen, he actually wanted a three carat diamond on a designer setting.. maybe your bf and mine could have a talk and they could reach a middle ground!!
  • edited December 2011
    My ring was under $1,000, and it's a 3/4 center stone with small diamond along the band. You can find a great ring at a reasonable price, you just have to be flexible.

    Look into the "4 C's" of diamonds and figure out two that are most important to you. Find some pics of rings you like and show your BF. Explain what you'd like. Then let him figure out his budget and don't be snobby about where he finds your ring.

    Mine was not what I envisioned, but I can't imagine any other ring on my finger now. Heck, I didn't even want a diamond! But FI chose this for me, and he asked me to marry him, and the ring doesn't even matter much.

    Chill out, do some research, and talk to him about the budget to see what he can comfortably afford. Sounds like he's got a lot of bills on his plate. He may not be anxious to add another. Maybe he just wants to get something he can afford up-front, and that is so totally reasonable.

    This is just the beginning of the financial discussions you guys will have. Be grateful to have a guy who is sensible about what he can afford, and not trying to live beyond his means.
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  • Dmatthews450Dmatthews450 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Also, when we started dating Cody got me a promise ring from jared that was around 600, it is gorgeous and i would be perfectly happy with it as my e-ring, Keep an open mind and you should be able to find a compromise
  • desertsundesertsun member
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    edited December 2011
    The only solution is to be upfront with your BF about what you want.

    You guys need to be able to talk frankly about financial decisions and come to solutions you can both live with if you are to have a successful, lifelong union. So get practicing now!

    It's TOTALLY okay to want a larger diamond for no other reason than that you think it's pretty -- IF it's something you can reasonably afford or save for in a timeframe you're both happy with.
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  • kismokismo member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    if you'd rather not have a ring than a ring from the "promise ring" section...then tell your BF that!!! (maybe you could put the money towards paying off some of his debt instead) and in the future you could get the rock of your dreams!
  • edited December 2011
    Talk about your budget and don't base your decisions on what his friends or your friends have done.  My FI was able to spend a certain amount and we looked at several rings in that price range.  I was more concerned about the quality of the diamond than the size, so we picked out a 1/2 carat colorless with only microscopic inclusions (VS1? I can't remember) instead of a full carat of a crappy diamond.  You guys need to decide what to spend and then decided what's most important to you within that price range.  Also, you don't have to buy the wedding band now.  We're going to save for a while before we get ours.
  • hetshuphetshup member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_ring-dramaneed-solution?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:bdf3c417-d08e-4c66-b951-384e4d84c597Post:c9683dba-c120-4332-aa65-d5d5e112e333">Ring drama...need solution.</a>:
    [QUOTE] When we were shopping and he looked like he was going to throw up at some of the $3K sale prices, he mentioned that he was thinking more along the lines of $500.  And my heart stopped.  We have good jobs, but he has a lot more in his budget than I do - he owns his own condo, and has car payments and a bit of credit card debt that he's paying down.  He's from a small town where he says that most of his coworkers got their wedding rings from walmart or costco for under $800 - for the set.  And he actually asked me who I was trying to impress.  All I could think of saying is "myself!"  Oh, and he asked me why I thought I needed "the rock" - because I was looking at a 3/5 stone. I love this man so much, and I'm so upset because I feel like one of these demanding girls that REQUIRES a certain size stone if she'll marry you.  But I'd rather marry him with no ring at all, than marry him with a ring from the promise ring section.  Please tell me that you guys have some words of advice!!
    Posted by brewergirl[/QUOTE]

    Not to be all Debbie Downer on you, but it might not be a bad idea to wait a bit longer for your ring. You can be engaged without a ring, but his budget is really full and he is making a very smart financial decision by thinking about payments. His debt situation concerns me, and I would think concerns you too. You two need to have a heart to heart not just about E-ring budget, but a budget in general. And please whatever you do, do NOT co-sign any of that debt.
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  • RaiKaiRaiKai member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Talk about your budget TOGETHER. What your friends, or his friends, spent is irrelevant.

    If it is not in budget now, you can always get a "less pricey" ring now, and upgrade the stone when the budget allows. Is it really worth having a "big rock" if it means starting your marriage off under additional financial strain (given that is one of the biggest areas of conflict for many couples)?

    And, if you would rather not have an e-ring at all over what he is thinking, then don't have an e-ring. You don't need one to be engaged. Plenty of women choose not to have an e-ring for various reasons, even if the budget does "allow" for it. You can always get a ring down the road further into the engagement, or for an anniversary after the wedding, or never.

    P.S. Costco has some beautiful rings!
  • pinkpinotpinkpinot member
    First Anniversary First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Do more research online, I guarantee you can find something similar to the 1800K ring that is along the lines of your FI's price range.  I'd tell you to go to NYC diamond district but you're far away! FI got an excellent deal there on my ring, I can't even begin to tell you how much money he saved.  We laugh at our friends who don't do their homework and have spent double, in a chain store and the ring is of lesser quality. 
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  • edited December 2011
    You've gotten some really good advice here, so I hope you take it.

    All I really wanted to add is that my ring was free (it's an heirloom), and we're taking it to be appraised next month.  It's not very large, and I wouldn't be surprised if it appraised at less than $500.  I'm not going to care, we're really just getting it done for insurance purposes in case it turns out to be a really pricey ring for some reason. 

    All our friends are getting engaged now too, and they're all getting huge, expensive rings.  FI asked me if I regretted using the ring we did, and I wanted to slap him.  Instead I calmly told him that I love my ring, but more importantly I love him, and I love the fact that we were able to use the money he'd saved to fix our home when it fell apart, rather than on another piece of jewelry I didn't need.  Your BF seems to have his priorities in order.  Paying on the house and car so he doesn't acquire more debt, and paying off the debt he already has, is more important than buying an expensive piece of jewelry. 

    You can always do as pp said and wear nothing but the bands when you get married until you have enough money to upgrade to a larger diamond.  My mom and FMIL only wear their bands anyway because they've both been married 30+ years and no longer feel the need to prove anything to anyone.  I *hope* that that's me one day.
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  • Butter CookieButter Cookie member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Have you considered other stones? Maybe a CZ, white topaz, or even a colored stone (sapphire, ruby...) I have a smoky topaz ring. People ask me all the time if it's a chocolate diamond. I don't feel any shame about it, I'm happy with what I got (I picked it out) and am quick to tell people (with pride) that it's a smoky topaz ring. A friend of mine ended up with a pearl ring. Not my thing but she adores it.

    Also - you need to look around more. Is there a Diamonds Direct near you? You could try there. If there's not, keep looking. Maybe find something antique (from an antique store, or an estate sale) that has history.
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  • edited December 2011
    How abut getting a really nice wedding band and no engagement ring?  I've seen some diamond studded eternity bands that are sparkly and beautiful.
  • edited December 2011

    In order to cut my ring budget, I decided to only have one ring that would serve as  both an engagement and wedding ring.

    I went down to an L, SI1 diamond. (which my friend says is white, I have not seen the  ring yet).

    You could for example get a good/very good L SI2 diamond  .90k for 1200.  http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=39F39FY6&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

    and get the diamond put in a  custom ring designed by a local jeweler. (All you have to do is find a picture of the ring you want and they will custom make it for you).

    Going to a jeweler that does not spend loads of money on advertising can cut the cost by 500/1000 dollars. (Or at least it did for me).

    I understand the importance of a ring to you, and I recommend not settling, but compromising, I bet you can get a bigger and nicer ring on your current budget.

    Check out pricescope.com their forum on Rockytalky, can help you optimize your budget. But I must warn you, they are snobs there, and don't get caught up in needing an IDEAL or hearts and arrows diamond. A very good cut diamond will sparkle just fine. :)

  • edited December 2011
    The most important of the "c" is cost.  Your ring has to cost what your BF is comfortable with.  If the two of you are choosing together, get your fi to tell you exactly what he's comfortable with and go from there.

    Norway mentioned it already, but some ways to save money are go with lower colored diamonds and lower clarity Si 1or 2.  My fi saved hundreds of dollars on my stone by going with a K colored stone.  It truly looks like a H color in most lighting conditions. 

    Also, put most of your money towards the stone.  Get the store's most basic setting and if you want, upgrade it later. Look for stock sales at a local jewelry store or online.  Online vendors often have promotions and offer discounts for wire transfers.   I know an independent store that has crazy 35% off sale once a year on every single in stock item.  Check for these type of things.  good luck.

  • krissyg2010krissyg2010 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Don't feel bad about telling him what you want- just make sure to do it in a way that doesn't insult him or challenge his macho-ness. (Lol)

    I didn't get an engagement ring until 3 1/2 months after he proposed! And yeah, it was annoying when girls would find out I was engaged and then, of course, check my hand and ask where my ring was! In the end, I picked out a gorgeous white sapphire ring that I loved from Helzberg. It was under $200 and he balked at the price ("I wanted to spend more on you!") but it was what I wanted. Everyone who has seen it thinks it's a diamond and it's huge :)

    Oh, and DO NOT get a CZ or topaz ring! Ever! They're very soft minerals and in no time at all, they'll be all cloudy and scratched up. Check out Diamond Nexus Labs (www.diamondnexuslabs.com) They have some pretty extravagant rocks for great prices, because they're lab-created (plus you'll know that the diamond wasn't mined by some little kid in Africa- a big concern of mine!) Just talk with your FI and figure out what you two want to do- not what your friends will think. Trust me, they won't care if you're waiting for a ring or not. It's best not to go into debt over the ring. And if you get the right deal on a ring, you can put the extra money into savings for a house or something :) Good luck!
  • krissyg2010krissyg2010 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Don't feel bad about telling him what you want- just make sure to do it in a way that doesn't insult him or challenge his macho-ness. (Lol)

    I didn't get an engagement ring until 3 1/2 months after he proposed! And yeah, it was annoying when girls would find out I was engaged and then, of course, check my hand and ask where my ring was! In the end, I picked out a gorgeous white sapphire ring that I loved from Helzberg. It was under $200 and he balked at the price ("I wanted to spend more on you!") but it was what I wanted. Everyone who has seen it thinks it's a diamond and it's huge :)

    Oh, and DO NOT get a CZ or topaz ring! Ever! They're very soft minerals and in no time at all, they'll be all cloudy and scratched up. Check out Diamond Nexus Labs (www.diamondnexuslabs.com) They have some pretty extravagant rocks for great prices, because they're lab-created (plus you'll know that the diamond wasn't mined by some little kid in Africa- a big concern of mine!) Just talk with your FI and figure out what you two want to do- not what your friends will think. Trust me, they won't care if you're waiting for a ring or not. It's best not to go into debt over the ring. And if you get the right deal on a ring, you can put the extra money into savings for a house or something :) Good luck!
  • edited December 2011
    Im new to the boards but I dont think you should know the price of the ring at all. if I were you I would sit down with him discuss what you would like and them let him decide what he can afford to get you. After all the ring is only a symbol of what really matters which is that you love each other and want to spend the rest of your lives together. The price of the ring doesnt mean that he loves you any more or less.

    Like you said you love him and would marry him with or without a ring so dont stress over this. If he loves you and knows you he will get you something that he knows you will love and cherish. and because you love him the ring that he gives you when he proposes will be priceless to you no matter what it cost because its the ring HE proposed with.

    Good Luck hun!
  • edited December 2011
    I haven't posted in a long time, but working with diamonds, I see this situation a lot.

    I agree with the pps that it needs to be something that you both are comfortable with. It's not worth entering into this journey with extra debt or feelings of resentment. While I totally understand the allure of diamonds, having one does not make your engagement any more 'real' nor does it mean your FI loves you more.

    I really liked what someone said about choosing 2 of the 4 c's that are most important to you. There is great value and there are beautiful stones to be found in a near colorless (G-J), SI1 or SI2 diamond. Many people who buy an SI - I clarity diamond actually love the inclusions in their diamond, because it makes it unique. IMO cut is the most important of the 4 c's, because that's what gives you the sparkle that you're probably after. An ideal cut can make a smaller diamond appear larger than another of the same size with a lower cut grade. The cut can also make a difference in how a diamond with slight color looks. Another thing to keep in mind is flourescence. If you have a slight blue flourescence, it can counteract some of the yellow tints in most lights.

    Having worked in chain stores, I have found that the prices are often better online. They don't have the same staffing, insurance and rental costs that brick and mortar stores do, so they often pass those savings onto the consumer.

    Also as pps have said, have you considered gemstones? I'm currently debating that one myself, as I really love sapphires, but am unsure if I want one for my e-ring.

    Sorry that was so long, but I hope it helps!
    Good luck!
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_ring-dramaneed-solution?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:bdf3c417-d08e-4c66-b951-384e4d84c597Post:d51cfe54-7daf-41cd-890f-72c8e12b3846">Re: Ring drama...need solution.</a>:
    [QUOTE]Im new to the boards <strong>but I dont think you should know the price of the ring at all.</strong> if I were you I would sit down with him discuss what you would like and them let him decide what he can afford to get you. After all the ring is only a symbol of what really matters which is that you love each other and want to spend the rest of your lives together. The price of the ring doesnt mean that he loves you any more or less. Like you said you love him and would marry him with or without a ring so dont stress over this. If he loves you and knows you he will get you something that he knows you will love and cherish. and because you love him the ring that he gives you when he proposes will be priceless to you no matter what it cost because its the ring HE proposed with. Good Luck hun!
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  • maybe984maybe984 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Okay, first of all... don't feel bad about having certain expectations of the ring. A lot of the people on here have made comments about "Oh, size and cost shouldn't matter at all!"

    It doesn't make you less of a person simply because it does matter to you.

    But I will agree with most of the comments on here that suggest that you sit down and have a serious discussion with your BF. Find out what his reasoning is. If it's because of his existing debt or logical budgetary concerns, you can work to figure out a compromise (wait for the perfect ring, or find a good deal you're willing to live with.) However, if it's because he just doesn't think it's WORTH spending that much... that's another issue entirely.

    Some guys just don't understand why the ring matters to us. Explain that not only is it a symbol, but it's also something you're likely going to be wearing for the rest of your life. Explain that you want it to fit your style and show who the two of you are as a couple. If he still doesn't get it, compare it to a TV (this works really well if he has a nice, large flat-screen). Yes, you can survive with a smaller, simpler one... but if you're going to be looking at it THAT often, you might as well buy the best that you can reasonably afford Laughing
  • jbwed1jbwed1 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    When I first went ring shopping with my fi, I was a little concerned when he gave our budget to the salesperson as $600 (similar to your situation) - Not because we/HE honestly had more to spend, but because I knew the price of diamonds, the styles I liked, etc...and felt that would not cover the cost. But you know what...it's HIS budget. And right then and there I decided to be open and flexible. I started doing some research on the internet and found moissanite. He wanted to get me a real diamond b/c he felt I should have one (I let him know I didn't care)...and I wanted to have a certain look/style I could be comfortable with. We looked at moissanite rings and finally found one together that we both liked - a one ct. pear shaped solitaire - for about $500.  It's lovely and I get many compliments - I've never had anyone ask me if it's 'real'...although I don't really care - b/c it's what I like, what he could afford, and what we both feel was a logical/cost-effective yet enduring decision. You will have many more opportunities to discuss purchases and finances in the future - so get comfortable with it now! :)
  • jbwed1jbwed1 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Oh, and also wanted to agree with some of the pp's about looking into gemstones..I never in a million years would have even thought about having a gemstone,(probably b/c the diamond industry shoves the whole diamond thing down your throat) until I started looking into them...I would have been totally happy with something like that as well. And there isn't anything wrong with a cz - you can always upgrade later if you are able to. In this economy...in ANY economy really...it only makes sense to do what's smart for the both of you. Nobody will know..and nobody should really care.
  • Cooper3333Cooper3333 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    Personally, I would be a little concerned if he doesn't take your thoughts into consideration. Maybe that's all he can afford though. Have you considered not diamonds?


  • Cooper3333Cooper3333 member
    First Comment
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_ring-dramaneed-solution?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:bdf3c417-d08e-4c66-b951-384e4d84c597Post:1b40091a-a143-4f38-b1b2-f0734f4d9f6c">Re: Ring drama...need solution.</a>:
    [QUOTE]In order to cut my ring budget, I decided to only have one ring that would serve as  both an engagement and wedding ring. I went down to an L, SI1 diamond. (which my friend says is white, I have not seen the  ring yet). You could for example get a good/very good L SI2 diamond  .90k for 1200.  <a href="http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=39F39FY6&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=39F39FY6&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1</a> and get the diamond put in a  custom ring designed by a local jeweler. (All you have to do is find a picture of the ring you want and they will custom make it for you). Going to a jeweler that does not spend loads of money on advertising can cut the cost by 500/1000 dollars. (Or at least it did for me). I understand the importance of a ring to you, and I recommend not settling, but compromising, I bet you can get a bigger and nicer ring on your current budget. Check out pricescope.com their forum on Rockytalky, can help you optimize your budget. But I must warn you, they are snobs there, and don't get caught up in needing an IDEAL or hearts and arrows diamond. A very good cut diamond will sparkle just fine. :)
    Posted by Norway_T[/QUOTE]<div>FWIW - an L is not white. If you put it on a white piece of paper, it would look yellow and dirty.  I would not waste my money on an L for anything.

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