Prison- In an Ideal World

lunarsongbird · July 2011

Okay- I've been such a post hoar lately... There is a big thunderstorm outside and I just can't help myself!!

Andrew and I were talking about this on our way home form lunch today.

In an ideal world- only criminals and bad people would be in prison.

That being said- what would your ideal prison be like?

How do you feel about criminals getting college degrees while in jail?

heyimbren · July 2011

In my ideal world, there wouldn't be criminals :P

But I'll bite.

To a certain extent, I think prisons should be harsher. However, what I really don't like about prisons (especially penitentiaries here- I don't know about the US system specifically) is how dangerous they are. I don't like the idea of assaults or sexual assaults, even if they're all "bad people".

But I don't like the idea of all these resources being available either. It should be a "fun" or "easy" time. That's kind of the point.

I know someone who finds it better to turn themselves in for a crime they committed (and were hiding from the police) because in prison, they get better food then they get on the run, more activities, monitored health, better living quarters, etc. I don't like that idea, that prison is better than your freedom.

I'd be okay with education if it wasn't so expensive. I think education is good for everyone- but I'm not okay with the fact that so many young, potential students can't afford it but criminals can have it for free. I might be okay with it if they can afford it on their own, using funds from their estate or something. But maybe that would be too close to buying better treatment.

lunarsongbird · July 2011

It's hard for me to see the working poor struggle so much just to keep a roof over their heads and their stomachs full......while prisoners get three solidly healthy meals a day, oftentimes get to watch tv and play games, and are housed in air conditioned and heated facilities.

Oh, what would I have given to have been fed and housed for free during College...

Someone I went to high school with beat the living he1l out of a kid- almost killed him....when he was on the ground...unconscious...he kicked him some more. ::sigh:: He just got released from Prison....with a degree- and probably debt free. And I doubt he was ever denied fruit in prison....

There were many times in college that I couldn't even afford an apple.

So in my ideal prison- in an ideal world....

Prisoners would get fed the same thing every day. And they certainly wouldn't be fed better then our women and men fighting overseas. If I had it my way...they might get something like gruel- with the proper ratio of protein/carbs/fats/vitamins.
Of course- if they wanted something better to eat- they could pay for it.

No tv. They could read books.

No formal education. Again- they can read books.

No cigarettes. No candy. No special soap or shampoo.

Mandatory therapy visits for those that don't have life sentences.

They would do 8 hours of labor a day to pay their "rent."

lunarsongbird · July 2011

P.S. Bren- I went to Barnes and Noble today and they didn't have "Woman in White". Gr. Maybe I'll try the library.

loves2shop4shoes · July 2011

In an ideal world, prisons would be self sustainable so my tax dollars wouldn't go toward paying for criminals to live for free.

Also, there would be no tv, computer games, getting degrees, etc. while in prison. If an inmate killed another inmate, my ideal prison would send him right to the front of the line in death row.

Just because you're not murdering people in regular society doesn't mean you're not murdering them. If you sexually assaulted someone in prison, I'd add time to their sentence.

If inmates did something really good, like raising a service dog in their cell or mentoring troubled youth, they could potentially get time reduced from their sentence.

lunarsongbird · July 2011

Shoes- I like the sound of your prison very much!

alanna91 · July 2011

A close family member is in prison, so I'm going to be biased on this. Also, please don't quote any of this, I might delete it for personal reasons.

I know the prison that my family member is in is corrupt. There are some really, really great Correctional Officers and then there are some that are just total buttholes. If you go in for a visit they treat you like you're a criminal as well. I've had to wait in the lobby for the bus to come because the driver was too busy on his phone- I could hear the conversation too, he was talking to a buddy about going home with some seemingly random hookup from the bar the night before.
I've witnessed people getting yelled at and degraded for not realizing that their leather flip flops have a metal stabilizer in them that set off the detector, or that you can't bring your inhaler in and no- they can't hold it up at the desk for you either. The inhaler example really bothers me. They yelled at some older guy that could hardly speak English for trying to sneak in his inhaler. He was embarrassed and just kept trying to apologize. I pointed him out to my imprisoned family member once I got into the visiting area and he noticed that the person they were visiting was from Haiti and most of his family was in Haiti. Turns out the older guy with the inhalers was the prisoners father and was visiting to talk about the tragedy their family was facing after the earthquake in Haiti.

It's easy to say that prisons need to be harsher, but they are sometimes much too harsh. What really irks me about the prison I'm talking about is their policy about drinking water. They have the prisoners (including my family member) work on the side of highways in the Summer for four hours. If you dare drink too much water and they detect too much water in your urine, policy is they think you're covering up something and you get sacked. Sacked means you sit in solitary confinement for a certain number of days, nearly naked, and your possessions become "finders keepers" to the other prisoners to take what they want. Like, seriously?! Forget about preventing heat stroke or dehydration. I don't even know their policy on sunblock but I bet it's non-existant.

Ahh, sorry, it's a sore subject for me. I still have much more to say but I'm going to cool it. On the topic of education in prisons, I see where Bren is coming from about the college degrees and potential non criminal students not being able to afford it. That definitely bothers me as a college student, but if a convicted felon wants and education I'd say let them have it. Convicted felons can't get good jobs anyway, so it would just benefit society by educating more people.

Also lunar, I agree. Only bad people and criminals would be in jail. Unfortunately that isn't always the case

Erm, that's my two cents!!

ETA: I just want everyone to remember that prisoners are people too. Not every prisoner has murdered, raped, or assaulted someone.
Some prisoners, like in my case, haven't even harmed anyone but themselves, and their families that have to miss them.

/emo

lunarsongbird · July 2011

Alanna- your two cents are always appreciated! And I agree with a lot of your sentiments...

And in my ideal prison- family and friends could most definitely see their loved ones without such a big hassle! No matter what your loved one has done- especially a child- you will probably still love them and have every right to see them.

I read a story of how awful some of the prisons are to get into....a friend of mine waited in a lobby for hours- just like you...got on the bus- got to the prison- and then was sent back because they thought what she was wearing was "inappropriate." She was wearing a t-shirt and jeans! So she had to go back to this container and dig through "loaner" clothes for something less inappropriate- and then wait for the bus again- hoping that she didn't take too much time, because the visiting window is so short.

In my prison- people would still be treated like people. They just wouldn't have any luxuries...except for books, which I think is really quite the luxury.

lunarsongbird · July 2011

Ooooh- And I forgot how ths whole discussion got started.
I was walking with "Teacher Ann" this morning. She's a retired teacher that walks around the Palmer Lake every morning. I met her for the first time last week and am hoping to run into her more. She's SOOO nice.

She was telling me about her 4th of July and how all the grandchildren drove 40 miles to see fireworks- that were stopped in th middle, because the hill caught on fire- right near a prison!

Now...how do you evacuate a prison?
There certainly aren't enough officers to manage all those people out in the open...

(My dad used to work in a prison- so I'll have to ask him. They all must have some sort of procedure).

PaigeMcC · July 2011

In an ideal world there would be no prison. That's not the case...so....

People should be treated like people, criminals or not.

Prisons should be places of reform, work, and reflection.

I disagree that people shouldn't be educated - everyone should be educated but I think it's necessary to find some way to balance this (so that the general public isn't paying for the whole thing.).

People should be allowed to see their families, because everyone is loved by someone and those loved ones have done nothing wrong.

More wrong actions committed by people in prison should warrant more time.

People should be fed. Period. Proper nutritious food. I know it's upsetting that people across the country are hungry and can't afford food BUT that means we need to invest more dollars in feeding those people...not take away basic nutrition from others.

Good, kind, charitable acts should be encouraged. Not just to get time off your sentence but because it makes you a better person and it helps contribute to society. (al la Shoe's comment on service dogs, etc)

bethsmiles · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:1d533c9d-e7e9-45de-bb5e-5c92e86a026f">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE] Also lunar, I agree. Only bad people and criminals would be in jail. Unfortunately that isn't always the case :( Erm, that's my two cents!! ETA: I just want everyone to remember that prisoners are people too. <strong>Not every prisoner has murdered, raped, or assaulted someone. Some prisoners, like in my case, haven't even harmed anyone but themselves , and their families that have to miss them.</strong>
Posted by alanna91[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of people forget this. I took a criminal justice class a couple semesters ago and the things people would say in that class were appalling. I hated discussions in that class because everyone acted like everyone in prison was a serial killer or rapist.

alanna91 · July 2011

Paige, I agree with your ideal prison completely. Especially with the nutrtious food part. I read a story about a prison out west that didn't allow it's prisoners to drink milk. This is off topic, but schools also need a menu overhaul. BF went to a really nice highschool. The local newspaper posted some undercover report on where they kept their food for the student's lunch...it was infested with rats and the chicken nuggets were expired. If this fancy schmancy highschool can't serve fresh, nutritious food, whats going on in the inner-cities and school districts with budget cuts?!

Lunar, I imagine evacuating a prison is some....

haha...

Anyway, your story reminded me of a friend's status a couple of days ago that said they were driving down a highway and there was a sign that said "Correctional Facility ahead. Do not pick up hitchhikers".

Beth, I'm glad you weren't like the other students! The crime portion of my sociology class was like that with discussions, but I didn't have the chutzpah to speak up. One kid wanted the death penalty for all prisoners because he didn't want to pay for them. Holy canolli.

peekaboo2011 · July 2011

My ideal already exists. Okay, maybe not quite, but I think he's got the right idea.

Have you ladies heard of Sheriff Joe Arpaio? He runs the tent prison in Maricopa County, AZ. And that includes charging prisoners for their meals, no tv, they wear pink underwear, and banned cigarettes, hot lunches, coffee and salt and pepper.

He also has the lowest return rate of prisoners in the country. Yes, there are some lawsuit issues, but this is prison, not a vacation.

Elle1036 · July 2011

I agree with Paige.

lunarsongbird · July 2011

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In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:62e1350e-9f96-4ce5-bdaf-7f301abf6dc3">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE]My ideal already exists. Okay, maybe not quite, but I think he's got the right idea. Have you ladies heard of Sheriff Joe Arpaio? He runs the tent prison in Maricopa County, AZ. And that includes charging prisoners for their meals, no tv, they wear pink underwear, and banned cigarettes, hot lunches, coffee and salt and pepper. He also has the lowest return rate of prisoners in the country. Yes, there are some lawsuit issues, but this is prison, not a vacation.
Posted by peekaboo2011[/QUOTE]

Oooh...I have heard of him, but didn't know it was a tent prison!
Well all be...

This is very intersting. I wonder why there aren't more tent prisons.

jorja86 · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:62e1350e-9f96-4ce5-bdaf-7f301abf6dc3">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE]My ideal already exists. Okay, maybe not quite, but I think he's got the right idea. Have you ladies heard of Sheriff Joe Arpaio? He runs the tent prison in Maricopa County, AZ. And that includes charging prisoners for their meals, no tv, they wear pink underwear, and banned cigarettes, hot lunches, coffee and salt and pepper. He also has the lowest return rate of prisoners in the country. Yes, there are some lawsuit issues, but this is prison, not a vacation.
Posted by peekaboo2011[/QUOTE]

I personally think this guy gets off on degrading the inmates he's in charge of. The pink underwear especially bothers me. There is absolutely no reason for that other than humiliating the inmates. Also, I'm pretty sure that's a jail, not a prison, which is a whole different ball game as far as what people have to do to end up there.

I think prison should not be a pleasant place to be, but also should focus on rehabilitation when possible. I agree that it would be nice if prisoners somehow "paid" their own way. Don't some of them do that already? What about things like making license plates and picking up trash?

peekaboo2011 · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:4026781e-3425-451c-b4f2-6778cded7906">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Prison- In an Ideal World : <strong>I personally think this guy gets off on degrading the inmates he's in charge of.</strong> The pink underwear especially bothers me. There is absolutely no reason for that other than humiliating the inmates. Also, I'm pretty sure that's a jail, not a prison, which is a whole different ball game as far as what people have to do to end up there. I think prison should not be a pleasant place to be, but also should focus on rehabilitation when possible. I agree that it would be nice if prisoners somehow "paid" their own way. Don't some of them do that already? What about things like making license plates and picking up trash?
Posted by jorja86[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>If he gets off on it, fine. I really don't care how the inmates feel - if you wanted to be able to pick what you wear and eat and do and say, then you shouldn't have broken the law in the first place. My point is, he also has the lowest repeat offender rate. That, for me, speaks volumes.</div>

alanna91 · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:62e1350e-9f96-4ce5-bdaf-7f301abf6dc3">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE]My ideal already exists. Okay, maybe not quite, but I think he's got the right idea. Have you ladies heard of Sheriff Joe Arpaio? He runs the tent prison in Maricopa County, AZ. And that includes charging prisoners for their meals, no tv, they wear pink underwear, and banned cigarettes, hot lunches, coffee and salt and pepper. He also has the lowest return rate of prisoners in the country. Yes, there are some lawsuit issues, but this is prison, not a vacation.
Posted by peekaboo2011[/QUOTE]

I don't know of any prisons that allow cigarettes in the first place. Banning coffee, salt, and pepper is whatever. Sure, prisoners should work for their meals! A lot do. But pink underwear? That's cruel, especially since I'm guessing the prisoners are men. It's not right, they're still human and thats degrading a human being.

ETA: okay, the more I think of pink underwear really isn't that bad. It's kind of stupid. I think the thought of trying to degrade someone by clothes is a ridiculous, cruel thing to do. It irks me that it's meant to make a spectacle out of the prisoners.

alanna91 · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:4026781e-3425-451c-b4f2-6778cded7906">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE]I think prison should not be a pleasant place to be, but also should focus on rehabilitation when possible. I agree that it would be nice if prisoners somehow "paid" their own way. Don't some of them do that already? What about things like making license plates and picking up trash?
Posted by jorja86[/QUOTE]

I agree, rehabilitation should be focused on more. Prisoners still pick up trash, clean the kitchen, paint houses, stuff like that. I think the license plate thing is old and probably doesn't get done by prisoners anymore but I'm not sure.

jorja86 · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:dd6a6400-106d-408e-add0-37d5bdcb477e">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Prison- In an Ideal World : If he gets off on it, fine. I really don't care how the inmates feel - if you wanted to be able to pick what you wear and eat and do and say, then you shouldn't have broken the law in the first place. My point is, he also has the lowest repeat offender rate. That, for me, speaks volumes.
Posted by peekaboo2011[/QUOTE]

I'm sure we could lower repeat offender rates even further if we allowed torture. Does that make it right? How far are you willing to go? I think compassion and a little bit of empathy for your fellow human beings is never a bad thing. We all make poor choices at points in our lives.

Especially with this particular example being a jail, it's very possible that some of these inmates have committed their first crime, or a relatively minor crime. Some of them may even be awaiting trial, and not been proven to be guilty of anything at all.

I also think people on power trips are about the worst people to trust any kind of power to, especially when the people they hold power over have little to no realistic recourse against any abuse of power that may take place.

ETA: I actually have no problem with some of the measures he's implemented. Like I said before, it shouldn't be a pleasant experience in any way. WIth food especially; serve them the same highly nutritious, terrible tasting food we give people in the hospital. Taking away cigarettes without nicotine replacement of some kind probably leads to a bunch of pissed off inmates, which is less than ideal, but whatever, they don't NEED to smoke. I definitely agree with no TV, in any correctional facility.

It's more the idea that because someone has broken the law, it doesn't matter how we treat them that bothers me.

wink0erin · July 2011

No tv, no internet, no video games.

Let them read books, let them "work" or help the community in some way. Focus on rehabilitation and therapy. Allow one or two classes at a time, but not a full semester of courses. Let them be active or work out. They should have healthy food, but healthy doesn't have to mean delicious. Sure they can have "treats" available, but they should have to pay for them in some way... perhaps through hours of work with certain programs. Not with money, because in prison your family's wealth or lack of wealth shouldn't matter.

Prison shoudln't be enjoyable for the prisoner. I don't care what the crime is, if they are in prison then they shouldn't be thinking "gee I want to come back here!" They should be thinking "I can't wait to get out of here and better my life."

wink0erin · July 2011

Also, IMO if the prisoners are being treated better than our soldiers then it is BS!

alanna91 · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:0c8af4bb-f4f5-4b42-8378-83472756bf5c">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE]Prison shoudln't be enjoyable for the prisoner. I don't care what the crime is, if they are in prison then they shouldn't be thinking "gee I want to come back here!" They should be thinking "I can't wait to get out of here and better my life."
Posted by wink0erin[/QUOTE]

I don't know what prison you're talking about but I'm not sure if any prison that is enjoyable to the prisoner exists in the United States. They miss all holidays, birthdays, and special occasions with their family. If a family member passes they are <em>maybe</em> allowed to go to the wake, but there are to be no other family members in the room with them and they are handcuffed. They get an hour a day outside in the nice weather because some Security Officers don't want to go outside in the bad weather. They see their family through plexi glass and talk to them through phones. Sure maybe some prisons allow the prisoners to watch tv on Sundays or something, but really does everything else they have to go through make them think "Hey, let me get myself into some knee-deep crap again and get back here".

I do agree with your statement that wealth should not matter in a prison. You should definitely work for what you have and not depend on your family to give you money to buy food with. Jail should definitely be a class-less society.

jemmini6 · July 2011

I like Sherrif Joe for a lot of reasons, and I dislike him for a lot of reasons, but I have voted for him in the last two elections because I think the good he does outweighs the bad. And honestly, there hasn't been a worth oponent who I think will do a better job. Though some of his methods may be a little uncouth, he has certainly set a standard for being tough on crime and actually meaning it.

As for tent city, it's mostly for DUI's and other minor offenses because it's a low security prison and generally for shorter sentences. And I don't see what the big deal is about the pink underwear thing, it's not like they are singling certain prisoners out and humiliating them in front of the rest of the prison. IMO, it's just like an orange jumpsuit, it's the clothing they provide to you while you are in prison, if you don't like orange, or you don't like pink, then don't break the law and end up there.

However, I think higher security prisons need to be tougher too, meaning absolutely no luxuries. No air conditioning (like tent city), no purified water, no hot meals, no tv, no internet, etc. The only 'luxury' that should be extended (depending on the crime and sentence) is rehabilitation and focusing on making sure they can become a productive member of society when they leave (and they should have to do work while in prison to 'pay' for these services).

heyimbren · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_prison-ideal-world?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:cb911dbb-b705-40d9-bc77-f0332532c32fPost:5a12b212-cec8-4f23-a2ef-ed80b18b3a67">Re: Prison- In an Ideal World</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Prison- In an Ideal World : I don't know what prison you're talking about but I'm not sure if any prison that is enjoyable to the prisoner exists in the United States. They miss all holidays, birthdays, and special occasions with their family. If a family member passes they are maybe allowed to go to the wake, but there are to be no other family members in the room with them and they are handcuffed. They get an hour a day outside in the nice weather because some Security Officers don't want to go outside in the bad weather. They see their family through plexi glass and talk to them through phones. Sure maybe some prisons allow the prisoners to watch tv on Sundays or something, but really does everything else they have to go through make them think "Hey, let me get myself into some knee-deep crap again and get back here".
Posted by alanna91[/QUOTE]

I'm not aware of how different American prisons are from Canadian prisons, but I do know some people who have said they'd rather turn themselves in and go to prison then have their "freedom".

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