UGH

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:1de3802d-695e-4eed-bc42-07eb15bf762b">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think that you can necessarily argue that BC is an optimal solution to poverty... if anything, I think it can perpetuate it in the same way that abortion often does. Many women seek abortions due to "failed" birth control... it is so common to still get pregnant while on the pill! <strong>Organizations first and foremost should try to emphasize the importance of a stable and committed family foundation and responsible parenthood. They should encourage women to demand a supportive and committed spouse rather than an irresponsible boyfriend who only comes around when he wants something. Yes... I know this is a huge generalization... but a magical pill isn't going to ultimately remedy these types of circumstances for families trapped in the cycle of poverty... it goes a lot deeper than economic and health issues!</strong>
Posted by newlyseliski[/QUOTE]

Once again, why the knot needs a like button lol

doctabroccoli · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:332ea766-c595-41f9-96c5-6603b966aaef">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]From a purely economical, political and public health standpoint, free birth control has been available to the young and poor for decades, and that hasn't changed the unplanned/ unwanted pregnancy rate in that demographic. This newest change will probably make life easier/less expensive for a bunch of otherwise responsible, middle class women who are already on birth control. Hey administrators of this country! It's going to take more than free hormones to change things! (Just sayin'.)
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the clarification :). I think it's safe to say that this new legislation will require fewer hoops to jump through, however.

I try to keep religion out of my politics and vice versa, so I'm going to bow out of this conversation for the time being.

Kamakanani · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:f3c242d3-64e4-40ef-b35a-4a3fb08f98ad">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]... I also think a lot of well-meaning people have been a sold a line by Planned Parenthood and their ilk...
Posted by caitriona87[/QUOTE]

<div>What I find interesting about this statement is that Planned Parenthood often carries the brunt in these types of discussions, however they are not solely focused on ABC and "convenience" abortions (ie: ending "unwanted" pregnancies). I actually found some interesting information on an overview level on NFP (aka: FAM) on their website <a href="http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/fertility-awareness-4217.htm" title="here">http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/fertility-awareness-4217.htm</a>. In fact, when I googled "Fertility Awareness Method," they came up second (after the TCOYF site).</div><div>
</div><div>Not to say that I am throwing my lot in on one side or another of the debate, just providing some information that I found in my research on NFP that I found quite interesting.</div>

agapecarrie · August 2011

Margaret Sanger founded pp for the purpose of eradicating minorities.

http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm

ElisabethJoanne · August 2011

I disagree with that interpretation of Machiavelli.

doctabroccoli · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:25f59577-1dff-49be-ac2e-78eb6f616de5">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]Margaret Sanger founded pp for the purpose of eradicating minorities. <a href="http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm" rel='nofollow'>http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm</a>
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

You seriously did not just post that from such an intolerant website.

agapecarrie · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:08b49bcc-2860-4323-b3ca-5608c8fdfdd1">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : You seriously did not just post that from such an intolerant website.
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

Intolerant? Its quotes. Doesn't matter who quotes them.

And what about the site is intolerant? I do not tolerate murder.

caitriona87 · August 2011

I am aware that PP gives some sort of lip service to what they consider just another form of birth control. It does nothing to exonerate them in my eyes. Even if they are not "solely" focused on abortion, they are the number one provider in the nation and are also on the vanguard of pushing sexual immorality in every conceivable permutation as "normal" and "healthy." They attempt to undermine the rights of parents to educate their children in morality. I'd also suggest doing a bit of research into their foundress and her beliefs (which PP has yet to publicly denounce) and their current overseas campaigns of reproductive imperialism.

(And for the record this is the nicest paragraph I am able to type about PP.)

agapecarrie · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:2419b78c-395b-4290-8e62-684c38a2533b">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]I am aware that PP gives some sort of lip service to what they consider just another form of birth control. It does nothing to exonerate them in my eyes. Even if they are not "solely" focused on abortion, they are the number one provider in the nation and are also on the vanguard of pushing sexual immorality in every conceivable permutation as "normal" and "healthy." They attempt to undermine the rights of parents to educate their children in morality. I'd also suggest doing a bit of research into their foundress and her beliefs (which PP has yet to publicly denounce) and their current overseas campaigns of reproductive imperialism. (And for the record this is the nicest paragraph I am able to type about PP.)
Posted by caitriona87[/QUOTE]

I just posted quotes cited from their news articles, etc. Its sickening.

caitriona87 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:5a085b89-7369-49c7-9550-1dc25caa37b3">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : I just posted quotes cited from their news articles, etc. Its sickening.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Yep it is all very familiar to me unfortunately. Our pro-life group in college did a big event where we publicized these quotes of hers on campus. Pretty amazing how this stuff could be buried so effectively and for so long.

doctabroccoli · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:545ff5ce-563c-416a-a276-3fd0578f0b2a">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : Intolerant? Its quotes. Doesn't matter who quotes them. And what about the site is intolerant? I do not tolerate murder.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

You posted from a woman who calls pretty much every religion (including Roman Catholicism) a cult. It's an incredibly intolerant, one-sided resource.

(I am not defending or promoting PP here, btw. I realize their founder was definitely not the greatest person to have walked this earth; however, she was one person in what is now an organization of thousands).

caitriona87 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:1aca8d47-a5a5-41fa-b7be-fe1a392bf199">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : You posted from a woman who calls pretty much every religion (including Roman Catholicism) a cult. It's an incredibly intolerant, one-sided resource. (I am not defending or promoting PP here, btw. I realize their founder was definitely not the greatest person to have walked this earth; however, she was one person in what is now an organization of thousands).
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

I have actually seen the original sources for most of those quotes. They're from Margaret Sanger's own pen. She also spoke at KKK rallies and dated a Nazi higher-up. Planned Parenthood has yet to repudiate her and her views, and they still disproportionately target minority neighborhoods. (And countries where the people are darker-skinned, for that matter.)

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:b962229c-59fc-4005-9b68-ee14ab2fc7ef">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : Yep it is all very familiar to me unfortunately. Our pro-life group in college did a big event where we publicized these quotes of hers on campus. Pretty amazing how this stuff could be buried so effectively and for so long.
Posted by caitriona87[/QUOTE]

Yeah well as with anything in this world, you try to cover up the bad with lies about how it is good.
PP <em>can </em>do some good things (free checkups to low income women, std screening, etc). But that doesn't just erase all the bad things they do like tell teenage girls it's okay to go behind their parents back to have sex or kill babies.
Honestly, it is my dream to one day open up an "anti-planned parentood". A clinic that is completely nonprofit and gives free health screenings, std screenings, paps, prenatal care, counseling, adoptive services, etc. AKA the good that PP claims to be, but without the bad crap they throw in.

doctabroccoli · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:a13f130c-6a3e-43ab-8528-f4f8537d2977">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : Yeah well as with anything in this world, you try to cover up the bad with lies about how it is good. PP can do some good things (free checkups to low income women, std screening, etc). But that doesn't just erase all the bad things they do like tell teenage girls it's okay to go behind their parents back to have sex or kill babies. Honestly, it is my dream to one day open up an "anti-planned parentood". A clinic that is completely nonprofit and gives free health screenings, std screenings, paps, prenatal care, counseling, adoptive services, etc. AKA the good that PP claims to be, but without the bad crap they throw in.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

This was my second point above. I'm not saying that PP shouldn't denounce their founder (cause, in my opinion, they totally should), but you can't generalize an entire organization by the quotes of one person. Do they do questionable things? I believe they do. But they also help a lot of people with other reproductive health issues as well.

caitriona87 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:a13f130c-6a3e-43ab-8528-f4f8537d2977">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : Yeah well as with anything in this world, you try to cover up the bad with lies about how it is good. PP can do some good things (free checkups to low income women, std screening, etc). But that doesn't just erase all the bad things they do like tell teenage girls it's okay to go behind their parents back to have sex or kill babies. Honestly, it is my dream to one day open up an "anti-planned parentood". A clinic that is completely nonprofit and gives free health screenings, std screenings, paps, prenatal care, counseling, adoptive services, etc. AKA the good that PP claims to be, but without the bad crap they throw in.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

That would be amazing. I know of a few places that have gotten to that point but we definitely need more. I think it is what most pregnancy centers try to be, but few of them have the funding to run at that capacity. I read from someone in the field that if every U.S. family which is pro-life without exception gave $10/month, the average pregnancy center's yearly budget would be over $1M per year.

mica178 · August 2011

I'm not a huge fan of the founder of PP, either, but that Diane Dew is a hateful woman. What she has to say about Catholicism is horrible.

There are a lot of other ways to prove tha Sanger had an agenda, let's not increase the web traffic on an intolerant woman's website, please.

How about:
http://www.theliberal.co.uk/issue_9/politics/fof_hoskings_9.html

Riss91 · August 2011

It would be unfair to insinuate that all those involved in PP believe in all of those horrid, disgusting things that Margaret Sanger said/did. I'm sure agape would not make that claim.

However, I cannot support an organization that I know is deliberately doing something immoral. There are other organizations out there that help pregnant women in need or help with reproductive problems WITHOUT participating in immoral activities. These are organizations I support. It would be nice if more government funding went to those organizations rather than to PP.

I think the government should not force its citizens to contribute their money to causes they deem immoral though I'm not sure if this birth control coverage will do that. But given the current mangled state of our government, I am not confident that they could devise a plan that would allow people to "opt-out" of certain things.

As for BCP specifically, I'm not a fan of this legislation because I think it only perpetuates problems and encourages women and men not to care about sex/sexual reproduction - generally speaking (I realize many women and men ARE cognizent of these issues). And like PP said....these pills have been around for a while and things have gotten WORSE! Time to try a different approach!

agapecarrie · August 2011

I had never heard of diane dew, and my original link back to her page was lots of pro-life stuff and the harms of abortion-- my apologies for linking to the stuff I had no idea was there.

There are workers from planned parenthood that have said (after leaving) a girl would purposely be given a low dosage of birth control so she would get pregnant and come back for an abortion.

They would also perform "abortions" on girls who weren't really pregnant to charge them. This was given in a talk by a woman a long time ago at the march for life. I do not have her name.

The small amount of "good" that PP does is cancelled out by the evil. THere are plenty of other places to have those good things done.

newlyseliski · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:5799ab04-ce35-42fb-a88e-0b401a93073f">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]There are workers from planned parenthood that have said (after leaving) a girl would purposely be given a low dosage of birth control so she would get pregnant and come back for an abortion.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I believe this was discussed in a recent documentary called "Blood Money"

I don't like to assume that all PP workers are out to manipulate and plunder vulnerable women out of their money... many truly believe that they are helping women in desperate circumstances regain control of their lives. Abby Johnson's book "Unplanned" is a very balanced view on how she became involved in PP and eventually left her position as a clinic director after assisting with an abortion procedure.

While PP and many PP workers may want to distance themselves from their founder's extreme views and organizational goals... they certainly can't deny responsibility for their guiding mission/worldview spelled out in IPPF's (International Planned Parenthood Federation) "Declaration of Sexual Rights" which I find offensive and wrong on so many levels.

<a href="http://www.ippf.org/NR/rdonlyres/F148EF05-4CB5-4663-8ACB-F9F2DFC6429A/0/SexualRightsShortEnglish.pdf">http://www.ippf.org/NR/rdonlyres/F148EF05-4CB5-4663-8ACB-F9F2DFC6429A/0/SexualRightsShortEnglish.pdf</a>

kathleenkmm · August 2011

I am very surprised that more of you don't have insurance that will cover NFP costs. Mine covers NFP counseling and I can flex for the fancy machine (can't think of the name right now).

I've received health care from Planned Parenthood before, as well as volunteered there, and I truly don't believe it is the evil organization many pro-lifers like to make it out to be. The local Planned Parenthood clinics I have gone to have posters up advertising classes on NFP - something I don't see at the Catholic hospital I sometimes to go to now.

ETA: Since I get the feeling I may be flamed anyway, I want to point out that we truly don't know how many abortions were occuring 100 years ago because many of them were "back-alley" and that Church teaching on abortion has evolved from the time of the quickening to the present anytime at all ever standard.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:28e8969f-1b2f-4c2b-9fe7-cf3370b5fa78">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : I believe this was discussed in a recent documentary called "Blood Money" I don't like to assume that all PP workers are out to manipulate and plunder vulnerable women out of their money... many truly believe that they are helping women in desperate circumstances regain control of their lives. <strong>Abby Johnson's book "Unplanned"</strong> is a very balanced view on how she became involved in PP and eventually left her position as a clinic director after assisting with an abortion procedure. While PP and many PP workers may want to distance themselves from their founder's extreme views and organizational goals... they certainly can't deny responsibility for their guiding mission/worldview spelled out in IPPF's (International Planned Parenthood Federation) "Declaration of Sexual Rights" which I find offensive and wrong on so many levels. <a href="http://www.ippf.org/NR/rdonlyres/F148EF05-4CB5-4663-8ACB-F9F2DFC6429A/0/SexualRightsShortEnglish.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.ippf.org/NR/rdonlyres/F148EF05-4CB5-4663-8ACB-F9F2DFC6429A/0/SexualRightsShortEnglish.pdf</a>
Posted by newlyseliski[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU for mentioning this. i was going to bring it up. SUCH a good book. It brought me to tears so many times.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

Kathleen, total side note, your dress is adorable!

Meg1036 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:2ba9682d-5d34-48e6-9b88-7635c3a08e49">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE] I think the government should not force its citizens to contribute their money to causes they deem immoral though I'm not sure if this birth control coverage will do that. But given the current mangled state of our government, I am not confident that they could devise a plan that would allow people to "opt-out" of certain things.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

I agree that it would be nice if the government didn't force citizens' dollars to things that are immoral. I get frustrated, however, that this argument is used largely on women's health in the context of Planned Parenthood. For instance, I found the war in Iraq to be immoral, but I did not get a say in that. So its not that I don't think its a nice idea, its just that its completely impossible in reality.

caitriona87 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:cc9724ce-67e8-4b16-815a-c1db76004fe5">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : I agree that it would be nice if the government didn't force citizens' dollars to things that are immoral. I get frustrated, however, that this argument is used largely on women's health in the context of Planned Parenthood. For instance, I found the war in Iraq to be immoral, but I did not get a say in that. So its not that I don't think its a nice idea, its just that its completely impossible in reality.
Posted by Meg1036[/QUOTE]

The difference that I see is that operating a military for the purpose of defense is a legitimate function of a government, and *some* wars are moral. While a particular war may or may not meet the necessary moral criteria, the function as a whole is licit. It's part of what taxes are meant for. Participating in the killing of its own innocent populace is never a legitimate function for a government to undertake.

mica178 · August 2011

I remember my priest mentioning right before the 2008 election: Who can we vote for? One candidate supports abortion. The other supports an unjust, immoral war. Both result in death. Neither should be supported by Catholic people. And yet we must vote.

Ooph, that got me thinking. And praying.

I confess that I usually feel dirty voting because it's so rare that anyone represents my beliefs 100%, and I question the integrity of most politicians once they are in office.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:addfe6d2-12f2-4496-8157-a084796ecab5">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]I remember my priest mentioning right before the 2008 election: Who can we vote for? One candidate supports abortion. The other supports an unjust, immoral war. Both result in death. Neither should be supported by Catholic people. And yet we must vote. Ooph, that got me thinking. And praying. <strong>I confess that I usually feel dirty voting because it's so rare that anyone represents my beliefs 100%, and I question the integrity of most politicians once they are in office.
</strong>Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

Ditto this. Times a million.

Riss91 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:addfe6d2-12f2-4496-8157-a084796ecab5">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]I remember my priest mentioning right before the 2008 election: Who can we vote for? One candidate supports abortion. The other supports an unjust, immoral war. Both result in death. Neither should be supported by Catholic people. And yet we must vote. Ooph, that got me thinking. And praying. I confess that I usually feel dirty voting because it's so rare that anyone represents my beliefs 100%, and I question the integrity of most politicians once they are in office.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

In cases where all candidates support something I feel is immoral, I refrain from voting. My obligation to God trumps my "duty" as a citizen.

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ugh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c5ba1de7-afc0-423a-81e6-1a725584a461Post:cc9724ce-67e8-4b16-815a-c1db76004fe5">Re: UGH</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: UGH : I agree that it would be nice if the government didn't force citizens' dollars to things that are immoral. I get frustrated, however, that this argument is used largely on women's health in the context of Planned Parenthood. For instance, I found the war in Iraq to be immoral, but I did not get a say in that. So its not that I don't think its a nice idea, its just that its completely impossible in reality.
Posted by Meg1036[/QUOTE]

Like I said - I don't think it is possible in the current "reality" that is our dysfunctional govt. But, it's not completely impossible to do, you just need the right resources and leadership.

And I agree with caitrona, that some wars are moral. There is a big difference between defending yourself and others from physical harm when there is no other option (war - not all of them are this way, though) and deliberately and unnecessarily harming women and babies when there are many suitable alternatives (PP). I think PP is in the spotlight more because it is one of the premiere issues that divides voters. There is a lot of passion about this issue in the general public eye.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

I just hate how Obama has been bullying states saying that if they cut PP funding, he will cut medicaid (which covers SO much more). Since when is Medicaid useless without PP?

monkeysip · August 2011

@ Kathleen

"Church teaching on abortion has evolved from the time of the quickening to the present anytime at all ever standard."

I agree that PP employees/volunteers aren't all evil people, I just wanted to address this one point because I think it's a misconception.

Some Catholic theologians theorized that the child wasn't ensouled until quickening (and therefore, one could further theorize that aborting an un-ensouled child wouldn't be murder). BUT the Church has always condemned abortion. Even before quickening, abortion was still wrong.

"You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" --The Didache, A.D. 70

"Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born"-- Letter of Barnabas, AD. 74

""Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfill ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees" --Council of Ancyra, AD. 314

And there's dozens more from Church Fathers. I'm just pointing out a few.

agapecarrie · August 2011

Monkey, YGPM

UGH

Re: UGH

Choose Another Board

Search Boards