Update on textbook question from a few weeks ago

monkeysip · January 2012

Remember how I was complaing that a professor requires that we purchase new books from the bookstore for his class? Not just the most recent editions, but we're not allowed to buy used?

One of the books is HIS book, so he gets all the royalties when we purchase it.

Well, I found that $3 used version of his book instead of buying the $100 new, so I was just going to use that.

Bad News. The book has pages with discussion questions on it, and the professor requires that we tear out the pages and staple them to our answers when we turn them in. So every used copy (there were 3 used copies at Half Prices books) are all missing the pages. He won't accept our assignments unless we tear out the question pages.

So, I think he's purposefully requiring us to rip out the pages so that no one can use a used book. I think he's purposefully designing this whole system so that he can get the royalties every semester (this is a 300 person class).

Basic question: should I do anything about this? Besides reporting in my evaluation at the end of the semester, should I tell anyone else? I don't know if this is a perfectly acceptable thing for him to do, but it just seems unethical.

There's no reason that we should have to rip the pages out to turn the assignments in. We could photocopy the questions, or just write them out! There's no other explanation that I can think of than that he's just a greedy jerk.

Sorry, this is kind of a rant, but also just asking advice. WWYD?

monkeysip · January 2012

Okay, so the prof explained briefly on the website that the reason he makes us buy new is to keep the prices of the books low. He also says, as I mentioned in the previous thread, that he donates all the royalties from his book to a scholarship fund at our university.

Now, he also said that he would explain more in the first tape (the course is just a series of youtube videos of him lecturing).

I'm finally watching it, and he goes on and on about how there's a war on between new and used book sellers. He thinks its wrong that new book sellers make less of a profit on their books than used books (ie. A new book seller buys a book for 60 and sells it for 90, while a uesd book seller pays nothing for the book, maybe 10 dollars, then sells it for 75.)

He said he has a deal now with a small publishing company in which the company has promised to keep book prices low, comparable to used books, if the prof could guarantee that students would buy new every semester. It also, he explains, prevents the publisher from having to release a new edition every couple of years to make money (he says new booksellers release constant new editions so students can't buy used).

(FYI--his book came out in '97 and has another edition in 2001).

I just don't get why the book is $77 (sorry--I posted the wrong price earlier) if the publisher is supposed to be keeping these book prices low. It's a dang paperback for crying out loud. And even if he isn't keeping the money, I think his reason is still BS.

My issue now is that if he has this whole long explanation, and he's already giving his royalties to a UH scholarship, maybe the school already knows and doesn't care?

*Sigh*

monkeysip · January 2012

@ Yaga, I agree.

He's also only thinking about people who buy and sell used with the bookstore. Yes, the university bookstore doesn't give you much, and they still charge a pretty high price for used books.

But I feel like most people I know buy and sell used through amazon or other similar sites. If you sell on amazon, you sell directly to another buyer who will give you a really good return on your book. And if you buy on amazon, you get it much cheaper because the person selling isn't (usually) getting a profit.

Most of my profs recommend that we use sites like amazon to get books cheap because it skips the profit making middleman. That seems like a much better solution than to just produce new books every year.

Money aside--sounds like a waste to the environment to me.

He also says that his policy isn't much different than classes that require you buy the new edition every year or two. But I think that's bull seeing as how not every book gets a new edition that often, the ones that do at least allow a couple semesters of students benefit from the used book, and its the PROF'S choice whether to prohibit the use of old editions. When a new book company is just producing new editions merely to make money, usually the content isn't changed. Just the cover, pagination, maybe a few pictures. So I know a lot of profs let you use the old one.

monkeysip · January 2012

educational psychology.

I'm wondering if I should approach the professor first. A part of me is thinking that I should give him the benefit of the doubt and express my concern to him first. But the other part of me is thinking that wouldn't go over well. He's obviously put a lot of thought into this policy and has had it in place for several years (I think the taped lecture date from the youtube video said 2006)

[Deleted User] · January 2012

I think the guy is full of shiit. His reasoning is ridiculous. If he is so adamant about this war on publishers and booksellers (which I don't even think makes sense), then the class is not the appropriate place to fight that battle. The students shouldn't suffer simply because he wants higher royalties, and making students tear out the pages rather than copy them is absurd.

I'd do to a higher up, maybe ask an advisor what to do. I wouldn't go to him. I don't reemmber what class this is or what the book is about, but it seems like there is no real reason to buy a new edition other than royalties, and the professor should be allowed to take advantage of the students and system like that.

KatoNorway · January 2012

I'm way late to this, but I just wanted to say that if this turns sour, write a letter to the editor of the school's newspaper & student government council. Chances are, your not the only student that thinks his policy is bunk!
Good luck.

SarahPLiz · January 2012

If he's giving the royalties, then he's getting a tax deduction as a charitable contribution. That's the same as if he was getting them and making his car payment. He gets a benefit.

I think its silly that you have to pay for his beliefs about the book industry. Its not your job to keep that industry honest. Its like that because in a free market there is not price fixing, etc. I would complain to the dean, and if they don't listen, to the provost and then the President. This is unethical and if they allow it to go on it certainly taints your view of the university in a bad way. That can hurt their recruiting and retention. Not good. Its in their best interest to keep their students happy.

[Deleted User] · January 2012

I didn't even think about the tax/charitable contribution thing. That really bugs me.

The one thing I'd worry about though is that if he is truly donating the money for the scholarship, then the school might not be willing to do anything about it. What kind of scholarship is it? Something big that greatly benefits the school?

LetsHikeToday · January 2012

I agree with all PPs. I think you need to go to someone higher up. I think it's bullshit that he MAKES people tear out pages of a book they own. I can't believe no one else has questioned this policy.

Megbo2012 · January 2012

That's BS. He can't make you pay full price to fund his scholarship. I can't stand that.

One year, my school decided to add a $500 fee to our tuition or whatever, so that they could give more financial aid to those who need it. Uhm what? This is a smaller state school, everyone who goes here needs financial aid, not to mention only certain people even get aid, so tons of people struggling would be giving $500 for someone else. Our money already does that. They refunded everyone the fee that year because it was so ridiculous.

I definitely wouldn't be purchasing until I spoke to the Dean and other higher ups, like everyone else said. SarahP that tax write off thing you mentioned makes me cringe.

SarahPLiz · January 2012

So, this situation pisses me off so much I'm going to ask out Provost next time I see him. I might as a professor at lunch too, to get their take on it.

I have a hunch that this might violate the new transparency rules in the Higher Ed Reauthorization act regarding textbooks, but I'm not so familiar with them. However, there are definite recommendations from the Dept of Ed to HIgher Ed to make textbooks more affordable, and one is to up the availability of used textbooks. He clearly isn't following that one.

mbody · January 2012

I'm late to the discussion but I'd just like to say..

OP, I really hope this gets changed. It's unfair on so many levels. Even if he donates profits back to the school, it's not his place to use students' money to do so. Plus, he still gets something because of a tax deduction.

Try rounding up other students who aren't happy with the situation. You will be stronger with numbers. If you can't then try talking to somone- advisor, dean, and I love the idea that a PP said about student government or the university newspaper. This has to be changed.

And I can't even believe he would require you to tear pages out of a textbook and staple them to an answer sheet. Like does he not know the questions he asked you to answer? What a crock. Also, throughout undergrad, I borrowed and lent books out to people all the time for the semester. And if you do that, then no one is profiting, so there goes his arguement.

Good Luck!

allisong23 · January 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_update-textbook-question-weeks-ago?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:3ed3d786-51c4-4724-8bf7-f7ef0d7f0a71Post:cecb317b-420b-4e79-85b0-05b7764f6170">Re: Update on textbook question from a few weeks ago</a>:
[QUOTE]Okay, so the prof explained briefly on the website that the reason he makes us buy new is to keep the prices of the books low. He also says, as I mentioned in the previous thread, that he donates all the royalties from his book to a scholarship fund at our university. Now, he also said that he would explain more in the first tape (the course is just a series of youtube videos of him lecturing). I'm finally watching it, and he goes on and on about how there's a war on between new and used book sellers. He thinks its wrong that new book sellers make less of a profit on their books than used books (ie. A new book seller buys a book for 60 and sells it for 90, while a uesd book seller pays nothing for the book, maybe 10 dollars, then sells it for 75.) He said he has a deal now with a small publishing company in which the company has promised to keep book prices low, comparable to used books, if the prof could guarantee that students would buy new every semester. It also, he explains, prevents the publisher from having to release a new edition every couple of years to make money (<strong>he says new booksellers release constant new editions so students can't buy used).</strong> (FYI--his book came out in '97 and has another edition in 2001). I just don't get why the book is $77 (sorry--I posted the wrong price earlier) if the publisher is supposed to be keeping these book prices low. It's a dang paperback for crying out loud. And even if he isn't keeping the money, I think his reason is still BS. My issue now is that if he has this whole long explanation, and he's already giving his royalties to a UH scholarship, maybe the school already knows and doesn't care? *Sigh*
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

OK, I ran a college bookstore for 10 years, so let me fill you in on how college textbook sales go.

To start with, the bolded statement is just flat out wrong. "Booksellers" (i.e. your college bookstore) don't release new editions, that is the publisher's choice, so he lying to you. The bookstore makes more of a profit off a used book than a new book - they want to sell used! Here is a simple breakdown -

Let's say a new book costs the bookstore $75. The basic markup at most college bookstores is 25% (this changes according to the store's contract with the college). Most college textbooks are sold on a net pricing system, so the store's contract determines the markup. So they sell that textbook for $100, and make a $25 profit. From $25, you have to take out commission to the school (say $8), shipping,credit card fees, and the upfront costs for the store. The store winds up with a few bucks.

At the end of the semester, the bookstore buys back books for the following semester. If the store has an order for the book, they buy back the book at 50% of the purchase price, so $50. They then resell it for $67 (33% off new), so they make another $17, minus all the stuff I explained above but the costs are reduced ( no shipping,less commission, manpower, etc). The next time it goes through the cycle, it is bought back for $33 (50% of 67), so the margin is now 50%. If the store has to buy it from a used book wholesaler, it will still get a better margin than a new book (37%).

So, used books benefit the bookstore and the student, but the publisher loses, because they don't see a dime once the book is sold the first time. That is why there are so many new editions,bundled packages with CDs, etc.

Your professor is being greedy, pure and simple. I would go to the department head,and if that doesn't work, go to the provost. Emphasize that you are worried that the prof will hold it against you with your grade, and that will hopefully protect you from being penalized. I think he is taking advantage of the fact that your class is online, which prevents students from talking amongst themselves and complaining. See if your school has an ombudsman - their job is to protect the student in grievances.

Sorry for the length!

Wiscisbliss · January 2012

I skimmed the other responses, but I would not bring it up to the professor. I would mention it in a review of the class at the end of the semester - if it were anonymous. I would also write a letter to the dean of students, and schedule a face-to-face meeting to discuss.

This didn't happen at my school, but I have heard of it happening other places. IE Professor writes a book and releases new editions yearly to force students to buy new books. Usually students can get away with purchasing an older edition, you just have to pay much closer attention in class and to the syllabus and remember that chapter 8 may mean chapter 7 for you.
The pages being ripped out business is really low...

[Deleted User] · January 2012

That's all really interesting, alli. I didn't know how it worked from the school store's end and all that. But I agree it's greed on the professor and publisher's part - not a ploy to get book prices reduced. After all, if he doesn't sell new books, he doesn't get the royalties, and therefore the tax breaks on the scholarship.

I've had quite a few people ask me why I didn't assign my book for my class, and then jokingly (?) suggest I should require new editions every year to make a profit. Just the thought of it gives me a gross feeling in my stomach. I honestly don't think professors should be able to teach their own books. It just feels wrong to me.

Pookieson · January 2012

I would definitely complain and maybe take it one step further and involve fellow classmates in a petition of sorts. I just spent $1200 on books and that total was with around half of them being used! Ridiculous. I've had teachers that do everything they can to help you save on books and I had one like yours who wrote it, and required a new version...but I had one professor who wrote the textbook and then only charged $13 for it. THAT was awesome. I definitely say you take a stand against this and I'm sure others would join you. I would.

allisong23 · January 2012

I know everyone thinks that the bookstore is the one trying to make a fortune off new textbooks, but trust me, they wsant to sell more used books than new books, since the profit margin on used is 37-75%, compared to new books at 25%. The store WANTS to buy your books back at 1/2 price and they want to sell used books, not new.

If you want to know what your college bookstore is making a killing on, it is school supplies. Seriosuly, go to Staples.

kissamary · January 2012

That seems really crazy to me! I had a grammar teacher who wrote a grammar text book that we used, but because he was once a broke college student too, he put a document on blackboard that was the text book in its entirety. He said that since he wrote it, he could distribute it to whoever he wanted.

achiduck · January 2012

This is a huge ripoff to me. Some of my unviersity professors used texts they wrote in our classes, but always encouraged us to buy used and if there was an edition change would provide photocopied versions of the pages that had changes for a small fee.

I would definitely talk to an accedemic advisor of the department dean about that.

monkeysip · January 2012

Ok, sorry I've been MIA. Didn't have time to do anything yesterday.

I appreciate all your help. I'm going to see if the dean will see me on Monday to talk about it. If he's not sympathetic, I'm going to write a letter to the provost.

Like I said before, I don't know anyone in the class, or hardly anyone in the program, so I can't confer with other people about this for strength in numbers. But we'll see what happens.

Thanks for all the advice!

Duckie&Cricket · January 2012

Can you buy the book used from somewhere other than the school bookstore? Maybe if you buy it somewhere else people won't have torn out the pages, so you will have those and you aren't spending a ton on a book you have to tear to pieces.

monkeysip · January 2012

@ Duckie

FI's work (Half Price Books) had three copies, all three with the pages ripped out. There are a couple copies on amazon, but I'm afraid to order them if they do in deed have pages ripped out. The university bookstore, and no other local bookstore has the book used.

Seeing as how its the professor's own book, I doubt that many other people buy/use it for class. So all the used copies out there are most likely copies from his former students, so they would all be missing pages. There may be a few intact copies floating around somewhere on the internet, but I don't want to take the chance.

Starqueg · January 2012

This reminded me of a prof at my undergrad who got in trouble for something sort of like this, but different. She wrote all three of the textbooks used in her class (and only her class). For a while, the only place you could buy the textbooks was from her, in class, not the bookstore or online. Someone complained and she is no longer allowed to be the single seller of her own works. I thought she was the biggest scam of professor textbook selling, but yours takes the cake.

sara814 · January 2012

Your professor is rediculous.

I am not sure if a professor can force students into buying a book, if not legally, then ethically. I am lucky enough to have professors who acknowledge the high cost of books (engineering degree, like all others, gets real pricy real fast with the $250 books). All of our class textbooks are on hold at the library, so even if we choose to buy an older edition of the book, we can go to the library and do the assigned problems from the required edition. I've never had a professor forbid the class from buying a book.

That said, the book must not be doing very well. How many people are in your class? 30? 300? Wouldn't a textbook be considered successful if it was used in many different universities, drawing a readership of THOUSANDS? Lame. Well, that's only my opinion anyway.

If you did want to do something about it, I'd suggest speaking with the department chair, and if that didn't work, go to the dean. You could also write a letter, send it to the department chair and any other department heads. You could also get the letter signed by other students.

Update on textbook question from a few weeks ago

Re: Update on textbook question from a few weeks ago

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