I deserve the deposit back! Sorry this is long :)

Jennfar · December 2010

Hello all on the knot! I've never posted before, always reading others... but now I've got an issue and I hope I can get some advice from all of you.
So, we booked a location a few months ago and everything was alright. This place does a lot of weddings and events, and is professional with everything. I mostly spoke with the event director over e-mail, met with her once, talked on the phone maybe once. Well in November, I replied to an e-mail, asking a very simple question (Could we rent chairs from an outside source) You see, this is important to my wedding... I'm trying to send out save the dates. I have more people on the invite list than this event location has chairs, so it's obviously an imperative point. After one week, I sent another e-mail. A few days later, I called. Someone transferred me to her, no answer. Again, a few days later, I called and the same thing happened. I left a message with the secretary. Between this time, I sent three more e-mails. I then called again, spoke with someone else trying to find the answer to my question, and they report that I need to speak with event director, transfer me to her...again, no answer. So I left a voicemail with a detailed message, I asked the question on her answering machine, repeated my name and number. It is now the END of December and I haven't heard a thing.
Now... this may be okay for right now, but when I'm trying to contact this person when my wedding is next week- it will NOT be ok. I do not want to be stressed out. The issue is, we signed a contract and paid the deposit. Another issue is, smart me did not make a copy of the contract (assuming I wouldn't have problems!) So in my opinion, we are canceling this wedding because of the lack of service we received. It is their fault, so shouldn't we get the deposit back? We definitely do not want to patch things up with this company, we don't want this to happen again and we found somewhere that will cost us a lot less, is much more our style, and we won't have silly restrictions at.
Sorry so long.... my question is now, What do I say to this woman (assuming I can get in contact with her) I am e-mailing her right now to simply say I am canceling and because it is not a problem on my side, I believe I should receive the deposit back... but I'm pretty sure they're going to say I can't. Any advice?

NcsuPsych · December 2010

I wouldn't email that response just yet. Have you actually gone to the location in person to talk with someone?

I also personally, wouldn't simply demand my deposit back. I would take a more diplomatic route (even if they have been sly - which it sounds they have).

Overall. . don't burn bridges quite yet. More gets taken care of in a civil conversation than does with yelling.

I'm sorry you're going through this though. It sucks and I would def make a complaint with the BBB on them.

Good Luck!

Jennfar · December 2010

This is what I said.....

We have been trying to contact you via phone AND e-mail multiple times. Because your company has failed to answer one simple, yet very important question, or even get in contact with us at all, we are canceling our reservation at the _______. This is a final decision. I do not want to be stressed out because I can't contact the person who is practically in charge of our wedding. We have put off sending out the Save The Date cards just because I have no answer from you. While this may not seem like a humongous issue, or even a complicated question.. it is very important, and I do not want to think about what questions I may have when our wedding is next week--what if I can't get in contact with you then? I've even tried asking other people that work with you, who do not know the answer. Being stressed out because of the company we are renting from is not something we want to deal with. Due to us canceling on reasons caused by your company, we very strongly believe we deserve to get our deposit back.

Jennfar · December 2010

I haven't gone to the place because it isn't close to my home. I don't feel I need to drive that far out to have one question answered to me. I wanted to say it very non chalantly, but I'm not the one who paid for the deposit.. it was my mom, who is not at all well-off. It's very unfair to her.
I am an easy going person and if it comes down to any sort of law issue or anything, I would back down and not let the conflict go on. But I do want them to know that I believe we deserve the deposit back.

NcsuPsych · December 2010

Go to the venue and try and get in touch with someone. Have you talked to the owner of the venue?
And I probably wouldn't use words such as 'humongous'.

emarston1 · December 2010

What does your contract say about cancelling?

Also I've never heard of a venue not having enough chairs. Are you sure you won't be over capacity in regards to fire codes or anything? I can't imagine a venue woud not have enough chairs to fill to capacity (and then some.) Seems very odd to me.

Licia&Wayne · December 2010

OP- why did you decide on a venue that didn't have enough chairs for your guests? That aside, I agree with PP. If I were you, I would go to the venue and have a meeting with the person you've been dealing with and decide what you will do after that meeting. It sounds like you've already made up your mind to not have your wedding at that venue, but in this case since you're objecting to their service, I would go in person. That way you can calmly and coolly plead your case and see if they will return some or all of your deposit. I think the sample of your email is a little too emotional for a business situation. Many times a contract will prevent you from getting your full deposit back, so keep in mind that no matter how much you fight it, they can still shut you down.

Jennfar · December 2010

We are having an outdoor wedding and assumed it wouldn't be a problem to have all of our guests, and underestimated the amount of people that would be coming. The reason I asked her if we could get more chairs is because I was thinking of fire safety. Also... this is our first and only time getting married, we aren't experts, and frankly we don't know what to do or when to do it.... so I wish I could tell you what the contract said about canceling, but I didn't make a copy of it.
I would be willing to set up a meeting to speak with her in person, but in order to do that you have to speak with her on the phone to find out her personal schedule-which I obviously haven't been able to do. I don't want to have to speak with her in person every time I need a question answered because it is a far drive. I feel that is completely unecessary.
+Yes, our decision to cancel this reservation is final, regardless of apologies, or if we are unable to get the deposit back.
... I have no idea what most of the abbreviations used over these message boards mean. ;-)

NcsuPsych · December 2010

While I hope you're able to get your deposit back, I hope you're prepared to lose it.

Emailing them wont do you any good if they aren't contacting you back via email now as it is. What makes you think they'll contact you back about this email? They're contract probably states something about how if you cancel, you lose the deposit or something (This is how I've seen it done a lot).

How far is too far? Personally, if you're talking about a thousand or more. . .I'd drive, because to me, thats a good chunck of change. Our deposit was 1,200 (1/3 of the rental fee + a safety security deposit: that was returned after the wedding since nothing was damaged). Even if it was 2-4 hours away. . I'd sure as heck drive there and would wait there until someone spoke to me. I'd want to talk to the owners, I'd report to the BBB about it and I'd also voice you're opinion on the local board.

With that said though, I'd do it in a professional manner because again. . yelling, pouting, stomping feet, 'strongly worded' emails, aren't going to get you nearly as far as just having a civil conversation with them. Sorry.

Again, good luck!

deepcovejackie · December 2010

OP--it kind of sounds like the venue may not be large enough (fire codes etc) to accomodate your guest list. I've never heard of a venue not having enough chairs.

I'd book a in-person meeting with the coordinator to see if you can work this out. If you do decide to cancel, you should revise your email. It doesnt really sound like a business communication. The reasons you've listed don't sound like enough to cancel at the venue. Is there more to the story? When is your wedding?

It sounds like you're trying to get out of your contract because your guest list is too large for the venue. Extra chairs won't help that. Good luck sorting it out.

Jennfar · December 2010

Sorry about that signature, haha! Trying to figure it out.
We have confirmed with the other venue, which is actually just someone we know with a lot of land and a beautiful sunflower field. They don't have restrictions.
The deposit wasn't that much, and I'm pretty sure we will lose it. Even if it isn't much, I hate for it to just be money down the drain. I feel very bad for my mom in this situation.
I just wondered if someone had been in this sort of situation before. All I really want to know is - if the company has failed to deliver their end of the deal(providing support to their clients), should the renter still owe them? It seems unfair, but yes I know that's life.
You're right about her answering this e-mail, I'm sure she won't. I will have to figure out what to do. I'm not an assertive or confrontational person at ALL so... going up to this woman and talking about it isn't something I'm really looking forward to. If it is necessary, I will... but I'd rather start small. I know the e-mail was unprofessional and should have informed them in a different way, but.. like I say, I'm not confrontational. I've been putting off telling them for days. Typed it out, sat there for thirty minutes.. just had to send it!
I don't want to report them to the BBB because it is practically a landmark around my area. Weddings aren't their main focus. I feel going through the trouble to file a complaint would be a waste of my personal time...
Will always make copies of contracts now!
Thank you all very much.

Jennfar · December 2010

PP - my reason for canceling is because I'm uncomfortable with the fact it is so difficult to get a hold of her. I've been trying to speak with her for over a month.

NcsuPsych · December 2010

think of it this way then. . .is losing this money worth it so that you are not having this headache through your planning process? (I hope I worded that right)

I'd still file a complaint (assuming nothing is done to correct the issues you're having). You want others to know the problems you're having and you don't want them to have to go through the same thing. A complaint with the BBB does more than you would think.

Good luck!

Jennfar · December 2010

And what they said is "You may use the chairs we have, and we have __ amount." It's outdoors, so no, the reason for me canceling isn't because we have more guests than expected. We would have limited our guest list if she had answered me in a timely member with a "No, that violates fire safety code."

emarston1 · December 2010

Don't feel bad for contacting the BBB just because they are a landmark. It is your right as a consumer to report bad business practices.

I would also keep a log of your unanswered phone calls and e-mails. This may come in handy if you decide to pursue the BBB route or small claims court (depending if they violated the contract or not. My guess is not but you never know.)

Have you tried contacting the owner/manager of the facility? If you can't get in touch with this person, get in touch with their boss, and their boss' boss until you get to the top. It's not about chairs anymore, it's about their lack of customer service which is a managerial issue and should be notified.

Beads921 · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_chit-chat_deserve-deposit-back-sorry-this-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:14Discussion:7a54b6df-2897-4480-aa05-2612383d0af8Post:ff169100-5e22-4adb-b70a-9eee525801f4">Re: I deserve the deposit back! Sorry this is long :)</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry about that signature, haha! Trying to figure it out. We have confirmed with the other venue, which is actually just someone we know with a lot of land and a beautiful sunflower field. They don't have restrictions. The deposit wasn't that much, and I'm pretty sure we will lose it. Even if it isn't much, I hate for it to just be money down the drain. I feel very bad for my mom in this situation. I just wondered if someone had been in this sort of situation before. <strong>All I really want to know is - if the company has failed to deliver their end of the deal(providing support to their clients), should the renter still owe them? </strong>It seems unfair, but yes I know that's life. <strong>You're right about her answering this e-mail, I'm sure she won't.</strong> I will have to figure out what to do. I'm not an assertive or confrontational person at ALL so... going up to this woman and talking about it isn't something I'm really looking forward to. If it is necessary, I will... but I'd rather start small. <strong>I know the e-mail was unprofessional and should have informed them in a different way</strong>, but.. like I say, I'm not confrontational. I've been putting off telling them for days. Typed it out, sat there for thirty minutes.. just had to send it!<strong> I don't want to report them to the BBB because it is practically a landmark around my area</strong>. Weddings aren't their main focus. I feel going through the trouble to file a complaint would be a waste of my personal time... Will always make copies of contracts now! Thank you all very much.
Posted by Jennfar[/QUOTE]

<div>Right now, it's tough for you to prove they didn't fulfill their end of the bargain since you have no copy of the contract to really know what their end of the bargain was. </div><div>
</div><div>I would tend to agree that they won't answer your email, since they haven't before, and it was poorly written. Business is business, not a pity party; they're not going to feel sorry for you at all. I would advise trying to talk to someone above the event co-ordinator you've been dealing with, on the phone. If you can't, get your butt out there. I know it's a ways away, and I know you don't want to, but sometimes these things have to be done. If you go during regular business hours, a manager or owner will probably be there. Make sure to go in with your head held high, I know it's tough, but if you can get part of your deposit back, it's totally worth it (plus, you will want to make sure they are aware you've cancelled).</div><div>
</div><div>And finally, landmark or not, report them to the BBB. They're clearly providing terrible customer service, and other potential customers will want to know that. It will help prevent other brides from dealing with this same heartache in the future.</div>

ckonidak · December 2010

Bottom line: Lesson learned that you need to keep copies of the contracts you sign. Also, booking a site and then planning on more people probably wasn't the best move (if I read your posts right). I hope the new venue works out for you! GL!

Licia&Wayne · December 2010

Retread is totally correct and this is something I didn't even think about: Chances are you may be responsible for paying them more before you get out of the contract with them because that contract probably guarantees certain profits for them as a business. OP- I've actually been in your situation before. My husband and I switched our reception spot in the middle of planning due to a change in finances and an overall desire to have our reception closer to our church. When we canceled with the original location, we did it early enough that we did not owe them anything beyond our deposit. But as it got closer to our date we would have owed them 25% of the estimated cost of our reception, then 50%, then 75%, then all. That's probably something you should check out. I hope you don't end up owing them more money, but it is a common thing to do for a business to protect itself against cancelations.

Belle2Be · December 2010

Looks like you've got a lot of great advice. The only think I want to comment on is the BBB, it might be a rare thing, but I've had to file with them before, and I recieved most of my deposit back because of them. So its worth a shot!

mkrupar · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_chit-chat_deserve-deposit-back-sorry-this-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:14Discussion:7a54b6df-2897-4480-aa05-2612383d0af8Post:65586714-90e5-41d5-89fd-9f61c74a8432">Re: I deserve the deposit back! Sorry this is long :)</a>:
[QUOTE]Some harsh truths: your wedding is not until May, and you're trying to contact them at a time when they're rushed with holiday parties. I agree that this is frustrating, but it's not a breach of contract. What someone said about the fire codes is true. They are in violation of the law if they're over a certain capacity, and that's probably why the "chairs" are "limited": it's not the number of chairs at all. It's the number of bodies that can sit in them. This is a big reason to never, never overextend your guest list or "count on x number not showing up." I doubt you'll get your deposit back. Not only may you forfeit your deposit.....you may STILL be legally liable for a certain percentage of the quoted costs. Many venues still require payment or a percentage thereof after a certain date, because they can't count on rebooking your date with someone else.
Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]

All of this! I work in hospitality. You should have gotten a copy of your contract (also read it thoroughly before signing). Even if the venu is an outdoor location they still have fire codes to adhere to. That is why they only have so many chairs.

It's the holidays, probably one of their busiest times of the year with weddings and holiday parties. Have you tried contacting anyone that is above this event director? I'm not saying they aren't wrong in not contacting you even to just say, "we're really busy at the moment, can we touch base after the holidays to discuss this issue."

You are not going to get your deposit back. That's why you make a deposit. 9 times out of 10 they are non-refundable. Retread is also correct in that you might actually owe them a certain percentage of the total cost. I've seen contracts that say if you cancel less than 90 days out, you owe 100%, less than 120 days 75%, less than 150 50%, etc.

I don't know why you're so adverse to making a trip out to this location. You can't be pasive in business dealings. Lesson learned, read AND get a copy of all contracts.

ETA: And no, you don't "deserve to get the deposit back." None of your arguments warrant that so don't go in there throwing around how you're entitled to your deposit since they haven't breached your contract. You're deciding to cancel.

MyNameIsNot · December 2010

If you haven't already sent that cancel email, I'd suggest trying to get a copy of the contract. Call back and talk to whomever answered before, and let them know that you can't find your copy and need one, and ask them to fax it to you.

FebDallasBride · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_chit-chat_deserve-deposit-back-sorry-this-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:14Discussion:7a54b6df-2897-4480-aa05-2612383d0af8Post:65814773-dbef-4c51-85d0-e13d3aeca165">Re: I deserve the deposit back! Sorry this is long :)</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I deserve the deposit back! Sorry this is long :) : All of this! I work in hospitality. You should have gotten a copy of your contract (<strong>also read it thoroughly before signing</strong>). Even if the venu is an outdoor location they still have fire codes to adhere to. That is why they only have so many chairs. It's the holidays, probably one of their busiest times of the year with weddings and holiday parties. Have you tried contacting anyone that is above this event director? I'm not saying they aren't wrong in not contacting you even to just say, "we're really busy at the moment, can we touch base after the holidays to discuss this issue."
Posted by mkrupar[/QUOTE]

This. 110% This. Nothing upsets me more than clients who don't read what they signed then try to throw it back in my face. Actually I get a sick joy out of showing them they are wrong.

Please do keep in mind that they are probably swamped (or were up to this past weekend, at least) with holiday parties. Although, that doesn't give them an excuse for not even sending a quick courtesy reply via e-mail to acknowledge you calling.

It does concern me that they didn't make a copy of the agreement you signed to send with you (or did they and you just threw it away?) Also, these questions that you are asking AFTER signing the contract are questions I would have advised asking PRIOR to signing the contract. It sound to me like you blindly signed this without writing out a list of all the questions regarding logistics for your day.

zitiqueen · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_chit-chat_deserve-deposit-back-sorry-this-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:14Discussion:7a54b6df-2897-4480-aa05-2612383d0af8Post:40905f44-c4be-4349-bbed-db57291cf9a8">Re: I deserve the deposit back! Sorry this is long :)</a>:
[QUOTE]

To all of you above: The BBB is a waste of time. Contrary to popular belief, they have no authority whatsoever over businesses. All they will do is take your complaint and put it in a file. People occasionally call them to ask if there are complaints against a business, but they rarely get a description of the complaint....just a number. The BBB can expel a business from its membership if the business is a BBB member.....but this, too, is a misnomer. They are very protective of their own and most chapters could care less what a business does so long as they pay their member dues. There have been a number of reports about this in the media as well....the BBB is basically a professional organization. Big deal. If you have a dispute, go to small claims court.....IF you have grounds.
Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU! I have to laugh at all the ladies here who think making a report to the Better Business Bureau amounts to anything more than a hill of beans. Oooh yeah, those businesses are really shaking in their boots over that threat.

banana468 · December 2010

I have to echo Retread and others who say that I don't think you're going to get your deposit back. Unless your contract states that all phone calls will be returned within 24 hours, I don't see how your venue is in breach of contract at all.

I can understand some of your frustration but I think you are going to have to face the reality that you're probably out that deposit and hopefully you're not out any cancellation fees or more given how close you are to the wedding.

redheadfsu · December 2010

Ditto pps.

Before people transfer you to the event person, do you ask if she was on vacation or why she hasn't answered your previous emails & calls? She could have quit. You need to go there in person and get a copy of your contract/ make an appointment to meet with someone.

Your question about chairs, (honestly) doesn't seem like the type of thing that needs an immediate answer. With the holidays I can completely understand why you haven't received a response yet.

I highly doubt you will get your deposit back. Plus, it was your fault for not asking these types of questions when you booked. (If the venue could hold/ accommodate how many guests you had or if you added more). It is not the venue's fault you have more guests now.

LuluP82 · December 2010

Ditto everyone. You're not going to get your deposit back and honestly, you don't really "deserve" to get it back. You didn't ask pretty relevant questions before you signed the contract-- capacity is a big question! You didn't keep a copy of the contract. And, you're cancelling by choice. I understand you're trying to avoid stress, but still- I doubt there's anything in the contract that outlines the timeliness of response, especially about a question such as yours so far out from your event.

Everyone else-- my venue actually didn't have enough chairs, and I didn't think that was crazy-- they just normally have smaller events and rent extra chairs as they're needed, rather than store a bunch of chairs. We had to rent some. Their fire code capacity was way over our guest list, but they just didn't have enough gold chivari chairs on hand. However, they arranged for the rentals and just charged us for them. Of course, this was all discussed prior to the contract, and included in there as a rider.

I deserve the deposit back! Sorry this is long :)

Re: I deserve the deposit back! Sorry this is long :)

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