What is Etiquette and why does it matter? A FAQ (by myself (hlvonb) and Schatzi13 )

CMGragain · February 2014

Do I have to leave again?

hlvonb · February 2014

phira said:

*clap clap clap clap*

Tradition is not etiquette. Totally different things. Definitely sticky the heck out of this.

@phira

Thanks!

hlvonb · February 2014

Jen4948 said:

Beautifully put, @hvlonb and @Schatzi13!

@Jen4948

Thanks!

hlvonb · February 2014

Inkdancer said:

Sabinus15 said:

I mean, the FOUNDER OF TK rejects you guys' tactics. Get over yourselves.

I would love to know where this is stated.

@Inkdancer I would love to know as well. I just laughed it off

hlvonb · February 2014

Weesh said:

Sabinus15 said:

I mean, the FOUNDER OF TK rejects you guys' tactics. Get over yourselves.

The FOUNDER of the TK is business who is here to make money off of people getting married. It doesn't matter to her whether or not you treat your guests poorly--she is still getting paid and doesn't have to see, hear, or even know about your train wreck of a wedding. Your friends and family will be around long after you get married (if you host them properly and DON'T listen to half the "advice" that's given out)

Great post ladies!

@Weesh

Thanks so much!

hlvonb · February 2014

CMGragain said:

Do I have to leave again?

@CMGragain

No you don't have to leave again

crunchymamaof2 · February 2014

This was a long time coming and to the point. Very well done ladies!

MuppetOverlord · February 2014

Sabinus15 said:

JCBride2014 said:

I love this. I feel that I must point out that the level of directness/ slight snark is fantastic but will probably still send noobs running. Seriously, can the TK regs (I'm not including myself in this, still learning from you ladies) get together and publish an etiquette book or something?

HA, you've got to be kidding. Good luck with that. You'll need it with how far out of touch you all are with society.

MuppetOverlord · February 2014

Sabinus15 said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Sabinus15 said:

Inkdancer said:

Sabinus15 said:

I mean, the FOUNDER OF TK rejects you guys' tactics. Get over yourselves.

I would love to know where this is stated.

http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/990080/an-open-letter-to-the-community-from-our-co-founder-carley-roney/p1

Unless you were here for the drama that was going on when that thread was posted, don't link or quote it. You have no idea.

Um, I was answering a question? :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPk4_XfYhjg

Here's another question: Do you know what happens when you assume?

TKzilla · February 2014

MuppetOverlord said:

Sabinus15 said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Sabinus15 said:

Inkdancer said:

Sabinus15 said:

I mean, the FOUNDER OF TK rejects you guys' tactics. Get over yourselves.

I would love to know where this is stated.

http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/990080/an-open-letter-to-the-community-from-our-co-founder-carley-roney/p1

Unless you were here for the drama that was going on when that thread was posted, don't link or quote it. You have no idea.

Um, I was answering a question? :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPk4_XfYhjg

Here's another question: Do you know what happens when you assume?

Something about her being an ass. That's how it goes, right?

Weesh · February 2014

Sabinus15 said:

By the way, I'm not encouraging ignoring etiquette, I just think that the regulars of TK are not the end-all, be-all etiquette gods of the universe.

I'm not really sure why you are here. Most of the posts I've seen from you seem to be trying to engage people in an argument or trying to get attention by name calling and bating other posters.

I lurk most of the time and rarely post, but I'm grateful to the ones who are here and giving honest advice to people about things that their friends and families won't be honest about. It helps me to read their honest replies, and I'd like to know what guests might think about certain things. If I didn't care about my guests comfort, then I shouldn't have guests, plain and simple. I care about their comfort when they come to my house. I want to make sure they enjoy what I'm making, cooking, serving, etc. and that they are comfortable. Why wouldn't I want the same at my wedding? If it was all about me, I should elope or have a private ceremony. This is going to be the biggest event I've ever hosted; I'd like to make sure I'm not remembered for being a bad host. If you think people don't talk about it afterwards, you're crazy. They might not remember the colors of your tablecloths or napkins, but they WILL remember if they didn't have a place to sit or had to open their wallets. Those are things I can and will control to ensure that my guests have an enjoyable experience. I'd do the same thing at my house.

Are there times where things might get snarky? Yes, because usually someone gets their feelings hurt after being told their fabulous idea will seriously inconvenience their guest. I'd rather have the women here tell me if I'm doing something I shouldn't be doing instead of having that happen during my engagement or at my wedding. And when you post on an Etiquette board for advice, people are going to tell you if you're doing something that's against etiquette.

Maybe you should re-think why you're here. The regulars aren't the end all be all, but they do give good advice that is worth heeding if you care about the comfort of your guests. And with that, I'm back to lurking..

antoto · February 2014

@Sabinus15 - I think there are cases in threads here where some members go overboard, but this board is far, far more helpful than hurtful. I've definitely seen a post or two on here where it seemed like SOME people were just jumping on the dog pile. Helpful suggestions had already been posted, the OP had responded that they understood, and yet people were still posting about how wrong she was. What that being said, this is a rare situation. It's not the norm.

If you post a question in a way that shows you are truly open to suggestions and just need to know what to do people will be pretty nice and very helpful. I think it's only when you ask a question and then argue with everyone when they give you an answer that they get frustrated and start getting super snarky.

Real question though - you seem to really not be getting any help out of being here, so what makes you stay? I stay on here because I get real help for questions I have and questions I never knew I had until I see a post. If you hate it here why do you continue posting?

hlvonb · February 2014

acove2006 said:

This was a long time coming and to the point. Very well done ladies!

@acove2006 Thanks!

afox007 · February 2014

Am I the only one who opened this knowing that great advice would start a mini argument?

hlvonb · February 2014

afox007 said:

Am I the only one who opened this knowing that great advice would start a mini argument?

@afox007 No, no you're not. Lol

OnceUponSnow · February 2014

The problem I have with this post is the fact that ''not following etiquette = poorly treating guests''. It's an assumption that I hate, because it is not true. Familial and cultural backgrounds have a lot to do with what's acceptable (and expected) in a family, than a set of rules that are unequivocally perceived as the Universal Truth. Let's keep things separate, and let's trust people to use their judgement, as they know their crowd best.

I think there are also nicer ways to suggest alternatives if you see something that you find goes against etiquette (as unfortunately, some replies come off as aggressive, and as offensive as the practice they equally consider offensive). This is not helping anybody.

Some etiquette rules are mandatory, while some others should be perceived as a guideline with room for exceptions IMO.

OnceUponSnow · February 2014

phira said:

*clap clap clap clap*

Tradition is not etiquette. Totally different things. Definitely sticky the heck out of this.

Agreed, but etiquette is also a social construction. The historian in me speaking:

There is a very interesting book by Norbert Elias that shows the evolution of etiquette and politeness in France over time. You'd be amazed how etiquette can go from one extreme to the other, just to avoid having bourgeois people acting like the noble class. Etiquette was what made a social class appear ''better'' and more civilized than lower classes (perceived as poor-mannered and rude). Over the 20th century, etiquette has become more democratic and accessible to a larger crowd (even the poor, working class), and it is why the etiquette books set rules to be followed in order to respect that ideal of politeness and gratefulness that wealthy, mannered people have set for themselves. Let's also not forget etiquette books reflect social practices and ideals of another era (thinking here about some etiquette books that are often quoted but date before 1950). If society changes, etiquette might as well. I'm not saying to erase everything and start from scratch, but obviously, mentalities have changed in the past decades, and some social conventions have too. This should reflect on etiquette ''rules'', at least some of them.

cookie0803 · February 2014

OnceUponSnow said:
The problem I have with this post is the fact that ''not following etiquette = poorly treating guests''. It's an assumption that I hate, because it is not true. Familial and cultural backgrounds have a lot to do with what's acceptable (and expected) in a family, than a set of rules that are unequivocally perceived as the Universal Truth. Let's keep things separate, and let's trust people to use their judgement, as they know their crowd best.

I think there are also nicer ways to suggest alternatives if you see something that you find goes against etiquette (as unfortunately, some replies come off as aggressive, and as offensive as the practice they equally consider offensive). This is not helping anybody.

Some etiquette rules are mandatory, while some others should be perceived as a guideline with room for exceptions IMO.

Actually, etiquette is specifically designed to make your guests feel comfortable. Tradition should not trump etiquette. Do you have some examples of these etiquette rules you consider to be guidelines?

artbyallie · February 2014

But, @OnceUponSnow, etiquette is treating one's guests well. What etiquette concept are you trying to say is not? Making people pay for their own beverages is certainly poor treatment, so you can't be in favor of a cash bar. Inviting someone but not their significant other is also poor treatment. Please be more specific if you wish to debate semantics.

OnceUponSnow · February 2014

I don't consider making guests paying for their alcohol to be poor treatment, no. Maybe because in my culture, it is customary for guests to bring wine when they're invited somewhere (the host does provide a bottle or two, but guests will bring any extra beverage they want to drink). I don't consider dollar dances to be of poor taste either, because they can't be if nobody sees it as such (ex.: if it's tradition in your family, if guests expect it and are eager to participate, how could that be seen as poor treatment ? You're actually pleasing them as well). Other types of registries than tradition, I don't necessarily have a problem with either. Where I come from, cash gifts are customary. Guests offer the amount they want, and they don't care if you treat yourself with a trip to Paris, if you use the money to ''break even'' for the reception costs, or if you decide to buy a brand new car with it. The money is offered as a token of joy, but its main goal is to please the couple and the guests know that and want that. They also know the money can serve other couple's projects, such as buying a house or saving before they have a baby. In these cases, tradition (or ''new'' tradition) comes before etiquette, but I don't see anything wrong with it as long as the guests are accustomed to these practices and expect them to happen.

What I think is mandatory, on the other hand, would be anything related to the guest's comfort (ex.: having a venue with the right capacity, providing enough chairs, providing heat device or tent if you're having an outdoor reception and ceremony, making sure you have enough food, thinking about what would please the majority of the crowd when choosing a menu - don't bet on salmon, etc.) That should never be compromised upon. For an anecdotical purpose : in my family and in my FI's family, a dry wedding would absolutely be rude (related to what I've said earlier - guests expect to drink). But I've seen it around and advised to budget brides because alcohol isn't perceived as essential to a wedding. But it is where I'm from.

banana468 · February 2014

How is having a dry wedding more rude than telling guests that they need to finance the alcohol they consume?

I always show up to a dinner party with a hostess gift but that doesn't mean that I expect the hostess to have to serve the bottle of wine I brought. It's actually the height of rudeness to bring a gift with the expectation that it will be opened and served to you.

OnceUponSnow · February 2014

artbyallie said:

But, @OnceUponSnow, etiquette is treating one's guests well. What etiquette concept are you trying to say is not? Making people pay for their own beverages is certainly poor treatment, so you can't be in favor of a cash bar. Inviting someone but not their significant other is also poor treatment. Please be more specific if you wish to debate semantics.

I don't want to ''debate semantics'', I'm simply wording my opinion and genuinely bringing other perspectives (ex.: historical) to the discussion. I'm not looking for a heated debate. I'm not saying etiquette is useless. I simply believe there is still room for etiquette to evolve according to social changes, and that's probably what will happen over the next decades.

I'm not debating, as that would mean I would be trying to convince you, and that is absolutely not my goal. I don't expect anybody to change their mind, just like I don't believe I'll change mine. However, I'm all for discussing about this subject, what it represents to different people, and to reflect about the changes that could occur (or did occur in the past) to wedding etiquette.

huskypuppy14 · February 2014

You can't be sure if every single person at your wedding is ok with dollar dances. Also, if someone is upset and thinks you are rude because you didn't provide alcohol ( ie dry wedding) than they are the rude one. Just because someone or even a majority of people prefer something doesn't make the host rude for not providing it.

banana468 · February 2014

OnceUponSnow said:

artbyallie said:

But, @OnceUponSnow, etiquette is treating one's guests well. What etiquette concept are you trying to say is not? Making people pay for their own beverages is certainly poor treatment, so you can't be in favor of a cash bar. Inviting someone but not their significant other is also poor treatment. Please be more specific if you wish to debate semantics.

I don't want to ''debate semantics'', I'm simply wording my opinion and genuinely bringing other perspectives (ex.: historical) to the discussion. I'm not looking for a heated debate. I'm not saying etiquette is useless. I simply believe there is still room for etiquette to evolve according to social changes, and that's probably what will happen over the next decades.

If etiquette experts in the future think that cash bars, dollar dances and money registries are fine then count me among those who will talk about the "good 'ol days" when people knew about what it meant to treat others well and selfishness want the major motivator for one's actions.

OnceUponSnow · February 2014

banana468 said:

How is having a dry wedding more rude than telling guests that they need to finance the alcohol they consume? I always show up to a dinner party with a hostess gift but that doesn't mean that I expect the hostess to have to serve the bottle of wine I brought. It's actually the height of rudeness to bring a gift with the expectation that it will be opened and served to you.

Speaking for my family, social circle and area : a dry wedding would be considered rude because people drink wine when they eat a nice dinner with friends. They drink wine at the restaurant. Here, wine is traditionally and culturally linked to celebration and good food, and if you provide the meal, you should provide the wine. Cash bar is another thing. It's usually aimed toward liquor, cocktails and drinks once the dinner is over. I live in Canada, alcohol is very expensive. I've basically never heard of an open bar in my area. It made sense to pay an amount of money over additional drinks for your guests, allowing them to only spend 1 or 2$ for a drink, while they would pay 7$ or more if you didn't chip in. It's a compromise, and personally, if I want to drink more, I'll happily pay for it. I don't see it as rude, I see it as being normal not to expect the host to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars over alcohol just because you want to drink more than what's available (for free) with your meal.

When it comes to wine as host gift : usually, we drink the wine we brought right away. Maybe not when you're only 4 or 6 adults for dinner because that's too much alcohol, but at Christmas dinner for example, where we're 20+ guests to eat at grandma's house : each couple brings a bottle and they're all open on the table : you drink want you want, it's communal and offered for anybody to drink. It's not saved for later as a gift, it's offered to share. That's why a dry dinner (with no mention of BYOW) would be perceived as rude in my circle, because it would pretty much mean you don't want to ''share''.

OnceUponSnow · February 2014

laurynm84 said:

You can't be sure if every single person at your wedding is ok with dollar dances. Also, if someone is upset and thinks you are rude because you didn't provide alcohol ( ie dry wedding) than they are the rude one. Just because someone or even a majority of people prefer something doesn't make the host rude for not providing it.

If I'm having a 70 guest wedding, most of them are my family and friends, most of them had a dollar dance when they got married (well, it's not true, it's not really part of my family tradition, although it was more common in older generations, but hypothetically), then why is there any reason to think they'll suddenly dislike the idea and think they're poorly treated overall ? Also, am I wrong thinking you're not obligated to participate ? Unless you are dragging each and every guest to the dancefloor, requesting them to pin dollars on your dress, I don't really see why this would be a problem even if the minority doesn't like the idea. However, I do believe this is not a safe practice if you're having an extended guest list, as obviously, people will come from more diverse backgrounds, cultures and traditions than if your wedding guest list is limited to close family and friends only.

About the dry wedding, there's context kicking in to explain why it would be perceived rude in my circle.

NYCBruin · February 2014

OnceUponSnow said:

banana468 said:

How is having a dry wedding more rude than telling guests that they need to finance the alcohol they consume?

I always show up to a dinner party with a hostess gift but that doesn't mean that I expect the hostess to have to serve the bottle of wine I brought. It's actually the height of rudeness to bring a gift with the expectation that it will be opened and served to you.

Speaking for my family, social circle and area : a dry wedding would be considered rude because people drink wine when they eat a nice dinner with friends. They drink wine at the restaurant. Here, wine is traditionally and culturally linked to celebration and good food, and if you provide the meal, you should provide the wine. Cash bar is another thing. It's usually aimed toward liquor, cocktails and drinks once the dinner is over. I live in Canada, alcohol is very expensive. I've basically never heard of an open bar in my area. It made sense to pay an amount of money over additional drinks for your guests, allowing them to only spend 1 or 2$ for a drink, while they would pay 7$ or more if you didn't chip in. It's a compromise, and personally, if I want to drink more, I'll happily pay for it. I don't see it as rude, I see it as being normal not to expect the host to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars over alcohol just because you want to drink more than what's available (for free) with your meal.

When it comes to wine as host gift : usually, we drink the wine we brought right away. Maybe not when you're only 4 or 6 adults for dinner because that's too much alcohol, but at Christmas dinner for example, where we're 20+ guests to eat at grandma's house : each couple brings a bottle and they're all open on the table : you drink want you want, it's communal and offered for anybody to drink. It's not saved for later as a gift, it's offered to share. That's why a dry dinner (with no mention of BYOW) would be perceived as rude in my circle, because it would pretty much mean you don't want to ''share''.

-------------------

If alcohol is a priority in your circle, then make it a priority with wedding planning. Cut other things. The argument that "alcohol is so important to my group that it would be rude to not have it. But it's not so important that I'm actually going to pay for it" makes zero sense. It's important or it's not. If it's important, figure out a way to pay for it. If it's not, then cut it. Shifting the cost of your party to your guests is not the solution.

HisGirlFriday13 · February 2014

OnceUponSnow said:

banana468 said:

How is having a dry wedding more rude than telling guests that they need to finance the alcohol they consume?

I always show up to a dinner party with a hostess gift but that doesn't mean that I expect the hostess to have to serve the bottle of wine I brought. It's actually the height of rudeness to bring a gift with the expectation that it will be opened and served to you.

Speaking for my family, social circle and area : a dry wedding would be considered rude because people drink wine when they eat a nice dinner with friends. They drink wine at the restaurant. Here, wine is traditionally and culturally linked to celebration and good food, and if you provide the meal, you should provide the wine. Cash bar is another thing. It's usually aimed toward liquor, cocktails and drinks once the dinner is over. I live in Canada, alcohol is very expensive. I've basically never heard of an open bar in my area. It made sense to pay an amount of money over additional drinks for your guests, allowing them to only spend 1 or 2$ for a drink, while they would pay 7$ or more if you didn't chip in. It's a compromise, and personally, if I want to drink more, I'll happily pay for it. I don't see it as rude, I see it as being normal not to expect the host to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars over alcohol just because you want to drink more than what's available (for free) with your meal.

When it comes to wine as host gift : usually, we drink the wine we brought right away. Maybe not when you're only 4 or 6 adults for dinner because that's too much alcohol, but at Christmas dinner for example, where we're 20+ guests to eat at grandma's house : each couple brings a bottle and they're all open on the table : you drink want you want, it's communal and offered for anybody to drink. It's not saved for later as a gift, it's offered to share. That's why a dry dinner (with no mention of BYOW) would be perceived as rude in my circle, because it would pretty much mean you don't want to ''share''.

The difference here is that your wine is EXPECTED to be part of the holiday meal because it's family, not an actual dinner party that you're hosting.

Unless you're hosting a potluck (I.e., last night DH and I went to dinner at friends' and they made the steak and potatoes and we brought the salad, dessert, and wine), you should HOST your guests. That means they don't bring alcohol or food to contribute to the event.

And weddings cannot be potluck. That is rude.

artbyallie · February 2014

How is it not uncomfortable for guests to have to open their wallets at an event that is supposed to be a thank you to them for witnessing your marriage? I just... I can't even. And it is not uncomfortable to go without alcohol. More pleasant with, sure, for some people including myself.

And what the hell is up with 'alcohol is expensive, so my guests need to pay for it and not me'? That's just fucking rude no matter how you slice it.

Jen4948 · February 2014

artbyallie said:

How is it not uncomfortable for guests to have to open their wallets at an event that is supposed to be a thank you to them for witnessing your marriage? I just... I can't even. And it is not uncomfortable to go without alcohol. More pleasant with, sure, for some people including myself.

And what the hell is up with 'alcohol is expensive, so my guests need to pay for it and not me'? That's just fucking rude no matter how you slice it.

This 100%. Upon hearing that any wedding couple or host expects me to pay for my drink, I walk out. That's your job, OnceUponSnow. "Culture" is not an excuse and neither is your specific social circle or family. If you want there to be alcohol, you pay for it.

What is Etiquette and why does it matter? A FAQ (by myself (hlvonb) and Schatzi13 )

Re: What is Etiquette and why does it matter? A FAQ (by myself (hlvonb) and Schatzi13 )

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