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Re: Hobby Lobby Sale

  • dolewhipperdolewhipper member
    First Comment 5 Love Its First Anniversary First Answer
    PrettyGirlLost said:
    dolewhipper said:
    southernbelle0915 said:
    Serious question for the HL supporters because I have a really hard time actually understanding the HL POV... I understand the "contributing to the sin" idea behind not wanting to pay for BC. But they ARE paying for BC. Just different forms of it (see PGL's list). So what gives? 

    I work for a Catholic NFP that doesn't cover BC at all. Like no form of it. Whether I agree with it or not, I respect that they are consistent. I just don't understand HL's inconsistencies. Why are some forms ok but not others? In my head, if they're religiously/morally against preventing life and therefore they don't want to pay for BC, they should be against paying for it any form, right?
    The kinds that where an already fertilized egg implants to the uterus wall destroys/doesn't allow to happen. Because at that point, there is ability of life. 

    "The companies in the case and their supporters object to IUDs and morning-after pills, saying they cause abortions by blocking a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Groups that lobby for reproductive rights contend the drugs and devices prevent fertilization from occurring, which can lead to unwanted pregnancies and surgical abortions."

    Edited to add quote.
    This is an area that I disagree with how abortion is defined or interpreted by religious groups.

    Biologically, preventing a fertilized egg from implanting is not an abortion.  To have an abortion, you must be pregant- you must have an implanted, developing embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins when the fertilized egg implants in the lining of a woman's uterus. 

    So without implantation you can't be pregnant, and without a pregnancy you can't have an abortion.

    Also, it's not a proven fact that hormonal pills and EC actually prevent implantation of a fertilized egg.  The literature states that it *may.*  Last I looked (when having this same discussion on FB earlier this year, lol) the research did not support the prevention of implantation hypothesis.

    Hormonal pills and EC work primarily by preventing ovulation in the 1st place.

    Annd my boss just walked in while I was confirming my info on EC, so I'm sure he thinks I'm pregnant now ><
    Definitely. The quote was from an article in the USA Today on the case, and while the terminology was incorrect, I can see how these types of BC stops an "ability of life" in the direct sense because the egg was already fertilized.




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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its

    lilacck28 said:
    This is a whole other thing but.... I don't understand the arguments against birth control, since it is very often used for a medical purpose BESIDES stopping the making of a fetus.

    I was on birth control (the pill) at... actually I can't remember. 15 or 16? Because I only got my period about every 6 months if I was lucky (mild PCOS). That is very unhealthy, and makes cervical cancer much more likely. Solution? Go on birth control, get your period every month, and reduce my risk of cancer. I was not sexually active. In fact, I was not sexually active until I met my fiance. I am snow white, bitches. (I joke!)

    So, for people against the use of birth control since it is a sin... are you against it entirely? Or just for "no fetus making" purposes? And if you want it banned... what about 15 year old me that barely ever got a period and was on her way to a very unhealthy uterus?


    I'm not anti-BC at all, and my views on it differ very heavily and are often at odds with many religious teachings and beliefs.

    Personally, I'm on the Pill because of my heinous periods that my current OB suspects are symptoms of endo, but I haven't had the internal ultrasound to prove yet. . . because that entire procedure sounds awful.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    beethery said:
    PrettyGirlLost said:
    dolewhipper said:
    southernbelle0915 said:
    Serious question for the HL supporters because I have a really hard time actually understanding the HL POV... I understand the "contributing to the sin" idea behind not wanting to pay for BC. But they ARE paying for BC. Just different forms of it (see PGL's list). So what gives? 

    I work for a Catholic NFP that doesn't cover BC at all. Like no form of it. Whether I agree with it or not, I respect that they are consistent. I just don't understand HL's inconsistencies. Why are some forms ok but not others? In my head, if they're religiously/morally against preventing life and therefore they don't want to pay for BC, they should be against paying for it any form, right?
    The kinds that where an already fertilized egg implants to the uterus wall destroys/doesn't allow to happen. Because at that point, there is ability of life. 

    "The companies in the case and their supporters object to IUDs and morning-after pills, saying they cause abortions by blocking a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Groups that lobby for reproductive rights contend the drugs and devices prevent fertilization from occurring, which can lead to unwanted pregnancies and surgical abortions."

    Edited to add quote.
    This is an area that I disagree with how abortion is defined or interpreted by religious groups.

    Biologically, preventing a fertilized egg from implanting is not an abortion.  To have an abortion, you must be pregant- you must have an implanted, developing embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins when the fertilized egg implants in the lining of a woman's uterus. 

    So without implantation you can't be pregnant, and without a pregnancy you can't have an abortion.

    Also, it's not a proven fact that hormonal pills and EC actually prevent implantation of a fertilized egg.  The literature states that it *may.*  Last I looked (when having this same discussion on FB earlier this year, lol) the research did not support the prevention of implantation hypothesis.

    Hormonal pills and EC work primarily by preventing ovulation in the 1st place.

    Annd my boss just walked in while I was confirming my info on EC, so I'm sure he thinks I'm pregnant now ><
    The people who think pregnancy prevention (as in keeping a pregnancy from happening at all) besides abstinence = abortion are some of the dumbest motherfuckers around. I am not the smartest bitch out there but I can at least understand that if prevention is not the same as abortion. Fuck's sake.
    Look, we disagree.  As a person of faith, I consider the union of sperm + egg to be the beginning of life.  I don't think that makes me a "dumb motherfucker".  




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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    beethery said:
    dolewhipper said:
    southernbelle0915 said:
    Serious question for the HL supporters because I have a really hard time actually understanding the HL POV... I understand the "contributing to the sin" idea behind not wanting to pay for BC. But they ARE paying for BC. Just different forms of it (see PGL's list). So what gives? 

    I work for a Catholic NFP that doesn't cover BC at all. Like no form of it. Whether I agree with it or not, I respect that they are consistent. I just don't understand HL's inconsistencies. Why are some forms ok but not others? In my head, if they're religiously/morally against preventing life and therefore they don't want to pay for BC, they should be against paying for it any form, right?
    The kinds that where an already fertilized egg implants to the uterus wall destroys/doesn't allow to happen. Because at that point, there is ability of life. 

    "The companies in the case and their supporters object to IUDs and morning-after pills, saying they cause abortions by blocking a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Groups that lobby for reproductive rights contend the drugs and devices prevent fertilization from occurring, which can lead to unwanted pregnancies and surgical abortions."

    Edited to add quote.
    image
    She was answering a question. . . why the GIF?  Or is the GIF for HL in general?

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • Sugargirl1019Sugargirl1019 member
    Combo Breaker First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its
    Yea, beethery that was pretty uncalled for. We know you don't agree. But don't be calling names like that. TOS, remember? We have to play nice in the sandbox.

    image   image   image

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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    dolewhipper said:
    PrettyGirlLost said:
    dolewhipper said:
    southernbelle0915 said:
    Serious question for the HL supporters because I have a really hard time actually understanding the HL POV... I understand the "contributing to the sin" idea behind not wanting to pay for BC. But they ARE paying for BC. Just different forms of it (see PGL's list). So what gives? 

    I work for a Catholic NFP that doesn't cover BC at all. Like no form of it. Whether I agree with it or not, I respect that they are consistent. I just don't understand HL's inconsistencies. Why are some forms ok but not others? In my head, if they're religiously/morally against preventing life and therefore they don't want to pay for BC, they should be against paying for it any form, right?
    The kinds that where an already fertilized egg implants to the uterus wall destroys/doesn't allow to happen. Because at that point, there is ability of life. 

    "The companies in the case and their supporters object to IUDs and morning-after pills, saying they cause abortions by blocking a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Groups that lobby for reproductive rights contend the drugs and devices prevent fertilization from occurring, which can lead to unwanted pregnancies and surgical abortions."

    Edited to add quote.
    This is an area that I disagree with how abortion is defined or interpreted by religious groups.

    Biologically, preventing a fertilized egg from implanting is not an abortion.  To have an abortion, you must be pregant- you must have an implanted, developing embryo or fetus.  Pregnancy begins when the fertilized egg implants in the lining of a woman's uterus. 

    So without implantation you can't be pregnant, and without a pregnancy you can't have an abortion.

    Also, it's not a proven fact that hormonal pills and EC actually prevent implantation of a fertilized egg.  The literature states that it *may.*  Last I looked (when having this same discussion on FB earlier this year, lol) the research did not support the prevention of implantation hypothesis.

    Hormonal pills and EC work primarily by preventing ovulation in the 1st place.

    Annd my boss just walked in while I was confirming my info on EC, so I'm sure he thinks I'm pregnant now ><
    Definitely. The quote was from an article in the USA Today on the case, and while the terminology was incorrect, I can see how these types of BC stops an "ability of life" in the direct sense because the egg was already fertilized.


    The ability of life is prevented because there is no ovulation. 

    Again, the research does not support the belief that hormonal BC and emergency contraceptives- which are just quadruple doses of regular hormonal BC pills- prevent fertilization or prevent implantation once fertilization has occurred.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    abbyj700 said:
    And don't forget ladies...HL ain't touching mens rights in any of this. They are more than happy to pay for their boner pills and vasectomies - they just don't want any ladies to have the choice to use the pill for medical purposes...or for us to have choice to get an IUD vs the pill. Because, well, oppression. 

    They hide behind religion, but the mighty dollar and holding down groups (women, gays, poor, etc) is what they are all about. 
    And then there's this: http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/01/investing/hobby-lobby-401k-contraception/

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • beetherybeethery member
    First Comment First Anniversary First Answer 5 Love Its
    @holyguacamole79 @sugargirl1019 the dumb motherfucker call was to those who do not understand that prevention is not the same as getting an abortion. I was under the impression that you both understood that taking a birth control pill to prevent pregnancy is not the same as going to a clinic and getting an abortion.

    @prettygirllost the gif was in response to the statement in the suit that "IUDs and morning-after pills cause abortions," when they do not do that. If an egg is fertilized and has begun to implant, a morning-after pill will not end the pregnancy.
    --

    I'm the fuck     out.

    image
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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    beethery said:
    @holyguacamole79 @sugargirl1019 the dumb motherfucker call was to those who do not understand that prevention is not the same as getting an abortion. I was under the impression that you both understood that taking a birth control pill to prevent pregnancy is not the same as going to a clinic and getting an abortion.

    @prettygirllost the gif was in response to the statement in the suit that "IUDs and morning-after pills cause abortions," when they do not do that. If an egg is fertilized and has begun to implant, a morning-after pill will not end the pregnancy.
    Gotcha!  I figured, but I just wanted to ask you rather than assuming wrong shit.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    @beethery - no, it is not the same.  However, I do stand by my personal belief that the union of sperm + egg is the start of a new life.  




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  • esstee33esstee33 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    PrettyGirlLost said:

    lilacck28 said:
    This is a whole other thing but.... I don't understand the arguments against birth control, since it is very often used for a medical purpose BESIDES stopping the making of a fetus.

    I was on birth control (the pill) at... actually I can't remember. 15 or 16? Because I only got my period about every 6 months if I was lucky (mild PCOS). That is very unhealthy, and makes cervical cancer much more likely. Solution? Go on birth control, get your period every month, and reduce my risk of cancer. I was not sexually active. In fact, I was not sexually active until I met my fiance. I am snow white, bitches. (I joke!)

    So, for people against the use of birth control since it is a sin... are you against it entirely? Or just for "no fetus making" purposes? And if you want it banned... what about 15 year old me that barely ever got a period and was on her way to a very unhealthy uterus?


    I'm not anti-BC at all, and my views on it differ very heavily and are often at odds with many religious teachings and beliefs.

    Personally, I'm on the Pill because of my heinous periods that my current OB suspects are symptoms of endo, but I haven't had the internal ultrasound to prove yet. . . because that entire procedure sounds awful.
    A transvaginal ultrasound? That's what I had when they suspected endo, and it wasn't actually half as bad as I thought it would be -- just awkward, mostly. 
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  • beetherybeethery member
    First Comment First Anniversary First Answer 5 Love Its
    edited November 2014
    By that same side of the coin, if an egg and sperm join up and, without the aid of any outside intervention via chemicals/etc, do NOT implant and instead leave the uterus, say, during menstruation, does that count as a miscarriage?

    I mean, sure, egg + sperm is generally termed as pregnancy, but it's not going to 'take' unless the fertilized egg attaches to the lining. Right? Everything I'm reading says implantation of a fertilized egg will take place within 6-10 days of ovulation and that's when pregnancy begins.
    --

    I'm the fuck     out.

    image
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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    esstee33 said:
    PrettyGirlLost said:

    lilacck28 said:
    This is a whole other thing but.... I don't understand the arguments against birth control, since it is very often used for a medical purpose BESIDES stopping the making of a fetus.

    I was on birth control (the pill) at... actually I can't remember. 15 or 16? Because I only got my period about every 6 months if I was lucky (mild PCOS). That is very unhealthy, and makes cervical cancer much more likely. Solution? Go on birth control, get your period every month, and reduce my risk of cancer. I was not sexually active. In fact, I was not sexually active until I met my fiance. I am snow white, bitches. (I joke!)

    So, for people against the use of birth control since it is a sin... are you against it entirely? Or just for "no fetus making" purposes? And if you want it banned... what about 15 year old me that barely ever got a period and was on her way to a very unhealthy uterus?


    I'm not anti-BC at all, and my views on it differ very heavily and are often at odds with many religious teachings and beliefs.

    Personally, I'm on the Pill because of my heinous periods that my current OB suspects are symptoms of endo, but I haven't had the internal ultrasound to prove yet. . . because that entire procedure sounds awful.
    A transvaginal ultrasound? That's what I had when they suspected endo, and it wasn't actually half as bad as I thought it would be -- just awkward, mostly. 
    With my PCOS as bad as it is, I know the ultrasound tech at my ob-gyn's office WAAAAAAAY too well.  And it really isn't that bad - just awkward.




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  • theycallmelinztheycallmelinz member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited November 2014
    beethery said:
    By that same side of the coin, if an egg and sperm join up and, without the aid of any outside intervention via chemicals/etc, do NOT implant and instead leave the uterus, say, during menstruation, does that count as a miscarriage?

    I mean, sure, egg + sperm is generally termed as pregnancy, but it's not going to 'take' unless the fertilized egg attaches to the lining. Right?
    I don't necessarily agree, but I think that could be defined as a miscarriage. When I took human sexuality in college, we discussed this and the professor called that a miscarriage (not sure if this was her personal belief or what) and we discussed how this happens very often early in 'pregnancies' and most women don't even notice when it happens, they just chalk it up to spotting and not realize they were ever potentially pregnant.
    Anniversary



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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    beethery said:
    By that same side of the coin, if an egg and sperm join up and, without the aid of any outside intervention via chemicals/etc, do NOT implant and instead leave the uterus, say, during menstruation, does that count as a miscarriage?

    I mean, sure, egg + sperm is generally termed as pregnancy, but it's not going to 'take' unless the fertilized egg attaches to the lining. Right? Everything I'm reading says implantation of a fertilized egg will take place within 6-10 days of ovulation and that's when pregnancy begins.
    I'm not a doctor, so I can't say with authority what the medical term is.  However, at that point, a woman would never know if she was pregnant since an HPT wouldn't confirm pregnancy that early.  (My NFP instructor tells me to wait until 10 days post-peak to test).  

    I don't think it's technically a miscarriage.






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  • esstee33esstee33 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    holyguacamole79 said:
    beethery said:
    By that same side of the coin, if an egg and sperm join up and, without the aid of any outside intervention via chemicals/etc, do NOT implant and instead leave the uterus, say, during menstruation, does that count as a miscarriage?

    I mean, sure, egg + sperm is generally termed as pregnancy, but it's not going to 'take' unless the fertilized egg attaches to the lining. Right? Everything I'm reading says implantation of a fertilized egg will take place within 6-10 days of ovulation and that's when pregnancy begins.
    I'm not a doctor, so I can't say with authority what the medical term is.  However, at that point, a woman would never know if she was pregnant since an HPT wouldn't confirm pregnancy that early.  (My NFP instructor tells me to wait until 10 days post-peak to test).  

    I don't think it's technically a miscarriage.


    Maybe this question is a whole other can of worms, but a NFP instructor? For what? 
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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    esstee33 said:
    holyguacamole79 said:
    beethery said:
    By that same side of the coin, if an egg and sperm join up and, without the aid of any outside intervention via chemicals/etc, do NOT implant and instead leave the uterus, say, during menstruation, does that count as a miscarriage?

    I mean, sure, egg + sperm is generally termed as pregnancy, but it's not going to 'take' unless the fertilized egg attaches to the lining. Right? Everything I'm reading says implantation of a fertilized egg will take place within 6-10 days of ovulation and that's when pregnancy begins.
    I'm not a doctor, so I can't say with authority what the medical term is.  However, at that point, a woman would never know if she was pregnant since an HPT wouldn't confirm pregnancy that early.  (My NFP instructor tells me to wait until 10 days post-peak to test).  

    I don't think it's technically a miscarriage.


    Maybe this question is a whole other can of worms, but a NFP instructor? For what? 
    NFP = Natural Family Planning.  It's when a couple monitor's a woman's cycle to identify when she is fertilie.  I work with an instructor who reviews my charts (yes, I make a daily observation on my chart) to help me and my husband to identify when I'm fertile.  

    Some couples use NFP to try to conceive, and some use it to space out their pregnancies.  




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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    esstee33 said:
    PrettyGirlLost said:

    lilacck28 said:
    This is a whole other thing but.... I don't understand the arguments against birth control, since it is very often used for a medical purpose BESIDES stopping the making of a fetus.

    I was on birth control (the pill) at... actually I can't remember. 15 or 16? Because I only got my period about every 6 months if I was lucky (mild PCOS). That is very unhealthy, and makes cervical cancer much more likely. Solution? Go on birth control, get your period every month, and reduce my risk of cancer. I was not sexually active. In fact, I was not sexually active until I met my fiance. I am snow white, bitches. (I joke!)

    So, for people against the use of birth control since it is a sin... are you against it entirely? Or just for "no fetus making" purposes? And if you want it banned... what about 15 year old me that barely ever got a period and was on her way to a very unhealthy uterus?


    I'm not anti-BC at all, and my views on it differ very heavily and are often at odds with many religious teachings and beliefs.

    Personally, I'm on the Pill because of my heinous periods that my current OB suspects are symptoms of endo, but I haven't had the internal ultrasound to prove yet. . . because that entire procedure sounds awful.
    A transvaginal ultrasound? That's what I had when they suspected endo, and it wasn't actually half as bad as I thought it would be -- just awkward, mostly. 
    Yes'm.  I have other issues though.  A regular exam is a bit painful, so I am afraid I won't be able to do the ultrasound.

    I should just suck it up and do it though, because endo can beome pre cancerous or cancerous, right?

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    @prettygirllost - I don't think Endo can be diagnosed with just an ultrasound.... but again, I'm not a doc.




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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    princessofgenovia said:
    I'm on the pill for no other reason then so I don't get knocked up. I like fucking FI, but I don't like the idea of getting knocked up. I don't really care if it keeps me from ovulating, makes my uterus unfriendly to possible fetus, or blasts FI sperm with tiny ray guns as they close in. I just care that I don't get knocked up.

    I <3 birth control.
    I wish my BC would blast my damn ovaries with a ray gun so that I didn't get those horrible, horrible cramps I used to get.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    holyguacamole79 said:
    @prettygirllost - I don't think Endo can be diagnosed with just an ultrasound.... but again, I'm not a doc.
    So I just Googled bc I don't know either, and the interweb says "Ultrasound imaging won't definitively tell your doctor whether you have endometriosis, but it can identify cysts associated with endometriosis (endometriomas)"

    So I guess my OB's thinking was that if she saw the cysts, then I would go to a surgeon and have laproscopy done to confirm?

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


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  • KatieinBklnKatieinBkln member
    First Answer First Comment First Anniversary 5 Love Its
    I don't craft. I hate Hobby Lobby. I hate the supreme court.


    I am mad that a 100+ thread was so respectful and boring, though. I EXPECTED DRAMA.


    Harumph.
    image
    This baby knows exactly how I feel
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  • FiancBFiancB member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    So on the topic at hand, I don't know if anyone's mentioned it but JoAnn's and Michael's both have huge black Friday sales. That's when I got my invitations and a bunch of other stuff. I will not darken the doorway of a Hobby Lobby ever. Michael's online store is pretty good too, if you're not near one. 
    image
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  • esstee33esstee33 member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    holyguacamole79 said:
    esstee33 said:
    holyguacamole79 said:
    beethery said:
    By that same side of the coin, if an egg and sperm join up and, without the aid of any outside intervention via chemicals/etc, do NOT implant and instead leave the uterus, say, during menstruation, does that count as a miscarriage?

    I mean, sure, egg + sperm is generally termed as pregnancy, but it's not going to 'take' unless the fertilized egg attaches to the lining. Right? Everything I'm reading says implantation of a fertilized egg will take place within 6-10 days of ovulation and that's when pregnancy begins.
    I'm not a doctor, so I can't say with authority what the medical term is.  However, at that point, a woman would never know if she was pregnant since an HPT wouldn't confirm pregnancy that early.  (My NFP instructor tells me to wait until 10 days post-peak to test).  

    I don't think it's technically a miscarriage.


    Maybe this question is a whole other can of worms, but a NFP instructor? For what? 
    NFP = Natural Family Planning.  It's when a couple monitor's a woman's cycle to identify when she is fertilie.  I work with an instructor who reviews my charts (yes, I make a daily observation on my chart) to help me and my husband to identify when I'm fertile.  

    Some couples use NFP to try to conceive, and some use it to space out their pregnancies.  
    Maybe I've totally misunderstood your previous posts re: birth control, but I thought NFP was not cool according to Catholicism? Or is that just when it's used for birth control? 
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