:: agape ::

Riss91 · March 2011

Since I'm in an inquisitive mood today

You're obviously extremely well-versed in the Catholic teachings, doctrine etc. I was wondering what your thoughts were on the Latin mass and why you choose to attend the Ordinary form mass. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that - it is clearly a well-accepted format! Just, in my experience, people that are as heavily involved and thoroughly researched as you are, generally prefer the Latin mass as the Ordinary form mass translation was not perfectly executed. I'm genuinely curious, as I haven't heard many intelligent arguments for the Ordinary form mass, and I'm guessing you can offer some. I hope you don't see this question as agressive or accusatory.

Thanks!

agapecarrie · March 2011

Nope, I'd be glad to talk about. My experience is different from yours...where I am from, most orthodox folks love the ordinary form of the mass. Lifeteen is what made me 100% Catholic. We have several locations offering the extraordinary form and I'm all for that too. I appreciate it in its own beauty.

The ordinary form should be done obediently according to the rubrics, and when it is, it is beautiful. Christopher West was talking about this at the institute one time, the symbolism of some of the differences, and they both have merit and real meaning. It's been awhile so I don't remember many particulars.

The ordinary form has helped me to really dive into the meaning of the mass, pondering the prayers. My experience growing up was a boring ordinary form mass without any passion in the prayer. Now, I realize that it shouldnt' matter, a mass is a mass, but it wasn't evangelistic to me at all. After being a youth minister in Lifeteen and experiencing amazing liturgies with passionate singing and praising, the true beauty of the mass can be experienced.

Calypso1977 · March 2011

I have struggled with the ordinary form. the first 24 years of my life were spent with the latin. i was away for 2-3 years (long story there) and began attending ordinary form when i was probably 27 or 28 (im 33 now).

while i know they are two equal and allowable forms, i do not feel as spiritually and religiously fulfilled after leaving an ordinary form mass as i do the latin. we've been attending the ordinary form more often since our wedding (which was latin) as i want to understand it and know it so i can teach my children if we have any, but its very hard for me. as odd as it sounds, i find it difficult to follow and understand. my H (who never attended latin until he met me) doesnt understand it when i tell him i understand the mass better in latin and get more from it.

all that aside, we are fortunate in that our priest says a very reverent ordinary form mass. it has certainly helped me try to transition.

Riss91 · March 2011

My experience growing up was a boring ordinary form mass without any passion in the prayer.

This was my exact experience. Zombie robots quietly responding and many skipping out after communion, or after they can put their "card" in the basket so they get paper credit for being there. Really sad.

Lately, when we've attended Ordinary Form masses, I've felt they were very "Romper Room" (which I know is an awful thing to say) and not necessarily thoughtful or reverent. Like I'm watching Blue Clues and not witnessing something extraordinary. The music is a big part of it - many of the "newer" songs I feel are more Protestant, very "me" oriented and at times plain cheesy.

But I do take issue with non-priests being Eucharistic ministers and the droves of people that take communion when they shouldn't, which I don't see happening at my Latin masses. I do like that the priest faces the altar and the whole congregation is focused in one direction, rather than the priest speaking like a principal in an assembly. I like that unity. I know many disagree!

And don't get me started on the sign of peace...Ha!

Our current parish does a wonderful job with the Ordinary form mass and we've found another parish locally that we also feel is respectful, so I know it is possible. I don't think I've really attended one that is as evangelistic as the ones you've described (other than a few Baptist services I've attended!).

Calypso1977 · March 2011

The music is a big part of it - many of the "newer" songs I feel are more Protestant, very "me" oriented and at times plain cheesy.

yes. yes yes yes. i also dont like the music up front like its a concert.

i refuse to take communion from anyone but the priest. that's just me. i also dont like communion in the hand, even though i know that came before the tongue. i just grew up with recieving on the tongue so hand feels wrong to me.

i dont care for sign of the peace, altar girls, or the priest facing the people.

my issue with altar girls is that by being involved with the mass, many girls might want to take the next step to being a deacon or priest, which of course tehy cant. nuns dont say mass, and that's the only role available to grown women in the clergy. its not a natural succession to go from altar girl to nun the way it is to go from altar boy to priest.

i also personally prefer holy ghost to holy spirit.

agapecarrie · March 2011

It depends on what you mean by "newer" songs...the contemporary Christian songs I use a lot at Lifeteen were mostly written by protestants, but that doesn't make them protestant. I dissect them to make sure they are in line theologically, and if they are singable, simple, and scriptural, and they help people pray, I use them. They use long tones a lot which help people sing out more too.

The "newer" as in Jesuit era, well, I'm not too keen on those. I use some of them at my church because there is emotional attachment to them,.

As far as romper room, I understand what you mean. It gets frustrating with the lack of respect and reverence sometimes. But I should tell you, playing music for funerals and weddings, I find it grotesque, the lack of reverence. People, from all religions getting on their cell phones in the main sanctuary of the church. I have many many stories.

My point is, this problem's source is not the ordinary form of the mass. The source is people in general with a loss of the sense of sacred. A loss of respect for human dignity at all. If we never had the ordinary form of the mass, this irreverent atmosphere would be happening at the extradorinary form masses. The fact that the people who are more irreverent go to ordinary form, well, in my opinion, that proves that its needed. The practice of it is being reigned in to more obedient and reverent, and with time, its true beauty will show.

gwendolynclare · March 2011

I didn't expect to find so many traditional Catholics on the knot! Calypso, I'm sure you already knew this and were just having a forgetful moment, but nuns aren't members of the clergy. Only the ordained are members of the clergy and while nuns do make special vows, they are still technically members of the laity.

agapecarrie · March 2011

My take on music up front (meaning off to the side, but towards the front) is that I as a music minister am leading people in their prayer. It helps me engage them to participate more. In the Extraordinary form, that part was not as important, the music provided more of a backdrop atmosphere, people didn't really particpate in that part.

In the ordinary form, the music is to be particpated in by all. I will take exception that I am in no way performing a concert. Ever. All of my musicians are like that too. The ones that feel the music ministry is a place to do a solo often quit early on because they realize that attitude won't be tolerated. My placement towards the front is not to perform but to help me lead others in their sung prayer.

Calypso1977 · March 2011

well, i meant clergy in the sense of religious vocation.

yes, there are several traditional or old-school catholics on here.

i also notice that at my church, prior to masses (latin or other) people file in and sit quietly until mass starts. at other churches that dont offer the latin, people are very loud and social like they are at a party whiel they are waiting for mass to start. that bothers me, since the blessed sacrament is present and many folks like to pray and have a few minutes to reflect before mass starts.

we also have an altar rail and at the ordinary form everyone lines up at the altar rail for communion - most kneel, some stand, but it seems nicer to me to have the choice to kneel for communion (again, as I was always taught to do) or stand. of those that kneel or stand, there is a mix of tongue/hand. we have a wonderfully diverse parish of "old" and "new" but our priest has been dynamic in bringing the two forms together. its part of why we travel 1/2 hour for mass despite having other churches 5-10 mins away.

catarntina · March 2011

Sorry to butt in, but this is very interesting to me. I've never attended a Latin Mass. I don't think the churches here offer Mass in Latin (it's not listed in their bulletins). If you wouldn't mind, could you explain what the differences are between ordinary and extraordinary form besides the language?

I gather that you don't do the sign of peace & communion is on the tongue.

I'm very curious, because I started going to this new church when we moved here, and I feel like Riss. People leave after Communion, or duck out before the priest makes his way down the aisle. The music is very concert-like to me. They have big screen TV's and NO kneelers. So people just sit in their chairs instead of kneeling, or bring foamy seat cushions like they're at a football game. When we went to Mass for Easter last year, they had extra chairs set up in the reception hall due to so many people and our mass was done via satellite TV. I am not even kidding you; we literally watched our priest on TV, and he sent people into the room to give us Communion. It's very disheartening to me and I don't feel like I get much out of it. So I'm intereted in knowing the differences, and maybe I'll look for a church that offers Latin Mass in hopes that I get more out of it.

Calypso1977 · March 2011

yeah, we've discussed the up front thing agape. and while im sure many are well intentioned, again, for me its how i perceive it, mostly because again, its different than what i'm used to. sometimes its so loud, particularly when its electronic in nature in terms of keyboards and guitars. i also find people follow the choir rather than the priest in terms of when to kneel, etc. for example, sometimes they should be kneeling based on where the mass is, but because the choir is still finishing their song, they continue to stand until the choir finishes.

gwendolynclare · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:0ef25d2c-e022-4fbc-a390-02c0f807e20c">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]It depends on what you mean by "newer" songs...the contemporary Christian songs I use a lot at Lifeteen were mostly written by protestants, but that doesn't make them protestant. I dissect them to make sure they are in line theologically, and if they are singable, simple, and scriptural, and they help people pray, I use them. They use long tones a lot which help people sing out more too. The "newer" as in Jesuit era, well, I'm not too keen on those. I use some of them at my church because there is emotional attachment to them,. Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Agape, I think a lot about hymns because my husband and I are both musicians, and he has an emotional attachment to many Protestant hymns. Some of his favorite (and mine too!) are beautiful and theologically sound, but are still not appropriate for the Mass. An easy and commonly used example of this is Amazing Grace. Beautiful, sound, everyone knows it... but the point of the Mass isn't to share our personal testimony the way the service of the tradition from which Amazing Grace came is. The purpose of the Mass is to praise God, so any hymns that fall outside of that are not appropriate. They're great for any outside devotion, or adoration if that's your thing, but not for the Mass. Despite that, many many many parishes sing Amazing Grace as a communion hymn anyway.

I was a LT youth minister with zero control over the youth-oriented Mass and the praise band due to office politics. They sang overtly protestant hymns before, during, and after Mass. I liked LT because the teachings were so right on and tended to emphasize very traditional devotions. However, most Life Teen parents and volunteers who were not spending time with the material had a misguided view of both Life Teen and of the faith. That was particularly frustrating and, in part, led to my resignation. :(

Calypso1977 · March 2011

catarntina:

overall, there is less involvement with the laity.
we dont have EM's, we dont do readings (the priest does them all), there is no presentation of the gifts (the gifts are already on the altar). there is also alot less response from the people. the congregation primarily observes rather than participates in the mass. only the host is offered, not the wine. we kneel to receive, and receive on the tongue (althoguh you could receive by hand, but ive never seen anyone do this other than at our wedding).

teh priest faces the altar rather than the people. the altar used is the one on the wall rather than a table that you can walk around.

altar boys, no altar girls.

i think you would really enjoy it. be careful where you seek out a latin mass tho. there are many latin masses out there that are not in communion with rome, most notably the SSPX.

Riss91 · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:0ef25d2c-e022-4fbc-a390-02c0f807e20c">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE] My point is, this problem's source is not the ordinary form of the mass. The source is people in general with a loss of the sense of sacred. A loss of respect for human dignity at all. If we never had the ordinary form of the mass, this irreverent atmosphere would be happening at the extradorinary form masses. The fact that the people who are more irreverent go to ordinary form, well, in my opinion, that proves that its needed. The practice of it is being reigned in to more obedient and reverent, and with time, its true beauty will show.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I certainly hope so. I don't necessarily think it's the Ordinary mass's fault....but just a certain mentality that formed post Vatican II....and I don't think that was the intent of Vatican II, just a result of changing times. But I rarely see that kind of irreverent behavior at a Latin mass.

Riss91 · March 2011

Catartina - you might be able to find one here:
http://www.latinmassnetwork.net/

I'll warn you that you'll likely feel a bit out of place until you get used to it (which took me over a year!). Sometimes there is a lot of singing and music and sometimes there's hardly any. And some churches women will always wear a mantilla and others not so much.

And just to piggy-back off of Calypso, while there isn't as much call-and-response participation, once you know the mass, you don't feel like you're an uninvolved spectator.

Riss91 · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:48f0cd8a-79b7-4365-b33b-0bd949f1543b">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]My take on music up front (meaning off to the side, but towards the front) is that I as a music minister am leading people in their prayer. It helps me engage them to participate more. In the Extraordinary form, that part was not as important, the music provided more of a backdrop atmosphere, people didn't really particpate in that part. In the ordinary form, the music is to be particpated in by all. I will take exception that I am in no way performing a concert. Ever. All of my musicians are like that too. The ones that feel the music ministry is a place to do a solo often quit early on because they realize that attitude won't be tolerated. My placement towards the front is not to perform but to help me lead others in their sung prayer.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I think it can be done in the right way. But I have seen many churches with a slew of people up by the altar(like the partridge family) and I find it very distracting. And not necessarily adding much. But I have been to many where the music was up in the back and no one participated at all....it's sad.

It would be nice if people didn't need you up front in order to actively participate. Then there could be more focus on what is occurring up at the altar.

Riss91 · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:d2699e21-85cf-4381-9e98-77549b633d0c">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]They have big screen TV's and NO kneelers. So people just sit in their chairs instead of kneeling, or bring foamy seat cushions like they're at a football game. When we went to Mass for Easter last year, they had extra chairs set up in the reception hall due to so many people and our mass was done via satellite TV. I am not even kidding you; we literally watched our priest on TV, and he sent people into the room to give us Communion. It's very disheartening to me and I don't feel like I get much out of it. So I'm intereted in knowing the differences, and maybe I'll look for a church that offers Latin Mass in hopes that I get more out of it.
Posted by catarntina[/QUOTE]

This entire paragraph is terrifying to me. And kinda makes me want to weep. This isn't the superbowl, folks. Ugh!

agapecarrie · March 2011

Wait a sec...

There is nothing wrong with having an overflow room--- thats whats done for papal masses all the time when he travels. When he came to St. Louis, mass was in the dome, and there were large rooms in the convention center with screens for additional people. This is using technology to bring Christ.

The bigger problem is the CEO's (Christmas and Easter only) people that don't come the rest of the year so that churches would be built bigger to accomodate that crowd all the time. (our the problem is in us not teaching the Gospel well enough, etc etc).

The other apsects (no kneelers, etc)...well yea., thats pretty bad.

agapecarrie · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:865f1db2-8a68-4f9b-b1e7-7f6f69b9097e">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : Agape, I think a lot about hymns because my husband and I are both musicians, and he has an emotional attachment to many Protestant hymns. Some of his favorite (and mine too!) are beautiful and theologically sound, but are still not appropriate for the Mass. An easy and commonly used example of this is Amazing Grace. Beautiful, sound, everyone knows it... but the point of the Mass isn't to share our personal testimony the way the service of the tradition from which Amazing Grace came is. The purpose of the Mass is to praise God, so any hymns that fall outside of that are not appropriate. They're great for any outside devotion, or adoration if that's your thing, but not for the Mass. Despite that, many many many parishes sing Amazing Grace as a communion hymn anyway. I was a LT youth minister with zero control over the youth-oriented Mass and the praise band due to office politics. They sang overtly protestant hymns before, during, and after Mass. I liked LT because the teachings were so right on and tended to emphasize very traditional devotions. However, most Life Teen parents and volunteers who were not spending time with the material had a misguided view of both Life Teen and of the faith. That was particularly frustrating and, in part, led to my resignation. :(
Posted by gwendolynclare[/QUOTE]

Thats unfortunate about your old parish.

About amazing grace: actually, I've seen a lenghty dissertation on why it isn't theologically sound. I don't care for it either, however for different reasons. I think the song is giving praise to God.

Remember, all the psalms are personal witness songs. The psalms are a big part of liturgical practice, not only in the hours, but in the Liturgy of the word, and many of the antiphons sung throughout.

I like a lot of p/w songs because the repetitive nature is similar to the meditative prayer in the rosary.

Riss91 · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:cd8eb653-c32d-4a2e-a7d5-9da44e1853ed">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Wait a sec... There is nothing wrong with having an overflow room--- thats whats done for papal masses all the time when he travels. When he came to St. Louis, mass was in the dome, and there were large rooms in the convention center with screens for additional people. This is using technology to bring Christ. The bigger problem is the CEO's (Christmas and Easter only) people that don't come the rest of the year so that churches would be built bigger to accomodate that crowd all the time. (our the problem is in us not teaching the Gospel well enough, etc etc). The other apsects (no kneelers, etc)...well yea., thats pretty bad.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Yeah,you're right, oopsies! I guess I was thinking of it for everyday mass and not just for Easter or special occasions - based on the 1st sentence there. But the idea of it being like a "show" and replacing an altar with a TV was irking me.

Calypso1977 · March 2011

riss, i love your tv references today. romper room and patridge family. LOL
a nice distraction from the usual duggar references in the nfp threads. LOL

Riss91 · March 2011

hahaha - well it's FRIDAY, FRIDAY, FRIDAY!!!

(anyone else cursed with that song on repeat in their brain today?)

agapecarrie · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:30cf4144-9c5a-45ee-92e1-3b9dd414e09c">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]hahaha - well it's FRIDAY, FRIDAY, FRIDAY!!! (anyone else cursed with that song on repeat in their brain today?)
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

In a few minutes I'm leaving to play music for a "Luke 18" jr high retreat. I usually start with a fun pop song or 2, and I'm gonna use the chorus of that. and then I'm going to stop.

Riss91 · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:5c2fa12d-8f33-401e-b4f4-c7dae521c16e">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: :: agape :: : In a few minutes I'm leaving to play music for a "Luke 18" jr high retreat. I usually start with a fun pop song or 2, and I'm gonna use the chorus of that. and then I'm going to stop.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Awesome. I'm sure that will grab tehir attention lol! That video is everwhere this week!

catarntina · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:cd8eb653-c32d-4a2e-a7d5-9da44e1853ed">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Wait a sec... There is nothing wrong with having an overflow room--- thats whats done for papal masses all the time when he travels. When he came to St. Louis, mass was in the dome, and there were large rooms in the convention center with screens for additional people. This is using technology to bring Christ. The bigger problem is the CEO's (Christmas and Easter only) people that don't come the rest of the year so that churches would be built bigger to accomodate that crowd all the time. (our the problem is in us not teaching the Gospel well enough, etc etc). The other apsects (no kneelers, etc)...well yea., thats pretty bad.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

The overflow room didn't bother me so much, but they have big screen TV's in the sanctuary of the church on either side of the crucifix. They put up the words to the penitential rite, lyrics to music, words to the Lord's Prayer. So people don't memorize it and take it to heart anymore, they just read the words in front of them.

I think the overflow room is the least of my worries. It's just that every other church I've gone to has never setup an overflow room for Christmas or Easter except this church. They typically have additonal services on those days instead of attending Mass via satellite. It was just so impersonal to me, and made me feel detached from the whole experience.

ellen73 · March 2011

@Riss

"But I do take issue with non-priests being Eucharistic ministers and the droves of people that take communion when they shouldn't,"

How do YOU know they shouldn't receive communion? That seems extremely judgemental to me.

Riss91 · March 2011

I guess I'm just making an assumption. You're right that I have no idea if all of them are in a state of grace or not at that moment, but when every single person in the entire church goes up for communion, it just seems a bit odd to me. Like literally the entire church files out of the pews. I just do not see that in the Latin masses I attend. I was raised in a similar congregation, and no one ever mentioned or reminded anyone that they shouldn't receive unless they'd gone to confession, so I think many people don't know the importance of it. I certainly didn't at that time and neither did the friends and family I attended church with.

So, yes, I am assuming (or betting) that not 100% of the congregation was in a state of grace. Of course I hope I'm wrong. I blame it more on the priests for not being upfront about the policy than the people, though those who know the rules have no excuse.

agapecarrie · March 2011

Because missing mass on Sunday's is a serious sin. If one is in serious sin, they must confess ( and truly repent and intend to change) before receiving communion, or else they become "guilty of the body and blood" (from scripture) there is no specific person any of us can make judgement on, because there be a couple here and there that do fit this change of heart. But most do not. And that's proven by the amount of people that go to confession. It's out of concern for their soul that this is mentioned, not judgement.

Riss91 · March 2011

Random thought:

I know the idea of "judging" others comes up a lot here. Sometimes it's misapplied to a judging of actions (which we are called to do) rather than a person's soul.

I guess my question is - sincerely - If God is really the only one that can judge us (or whose judgment matters), then why does anyone care what someone else may "judge" them for? I'm not saying we should judge others. In fact, I think we all should try NOT to - and I appreciate being called out so that I can recognize my mistake. But the act of placing judgment is the problem of the person doing the judging. So if someone places a judgement on me, and I assume they aren't God himself, then what does their judgment matter to me - as at the end of the day, only His judgment matters?

I mean this as food for thought, not as a defensive response.

ootmother2 · March 2011

Lifeteen?

dear lord, you became 100% Catholic belonging to a group started by a priest who was tossed from the priesthood for improper sexual conduct?

That could explain a good deal

I'm out to dinner with a Lector and EM from my church. I'll have to pump him a bit for info. I do confess that I'm uneasy taking communion from a guy I'm dating.

BBL

GulfCoaster · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_agape?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:5e11116e-df33-4961-92b7-c29257a55228Post:da8ba09a-9cb9-4f60-839d-f5cfc5ba8c60">Re: :: agape ::</a>:
[QUOTE]Lifeteen? dear lord, you became 100% Catholic belonging to a group started by a priest who was tossed from the priesthood for improper sexual conduct? That could explain a good deal
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

This thread had been going along respectfully until this point. Whatever you think the merits (or lack thereof) of Lifeteen are, personally attacking a poster like this isn't cool.

Can everyone agree to play nice and try to be charitable?

:: agape ::

Re: :: agape ::

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