Marriage Ultimatums

lovemesomemonster

To each their own, but I have always believed that you are either committed to each other or not, regardless of being married or on a timeline. I knew that FI and I were it from month one and so did he. We moved in together after 6 months, bought our first house together after 3 years, and bought the second after 5 years. The proposal came right around 6 years and I never once thought I couldn't start building my life with this man because he didn't want to get married right away. He waited until we were both done with school, he had been in a steady job with a retirement and we were comfortable. I am so happy with how everything has worked out, and I can't imagine pressuring him into a timeline that he wouldn't be comfortable with, or losing him because I couldn't wait a couple more years. It has been an incredible 7 years now and I can't wait to have many more with him.

spockforprez

I haven't read all the comments, but this one is tough. fwiw, I agree that ultimatums are shit. 

FH and I had a tough time getting engaged. When we first met I was pretty anti-marriage and he was an "accident" - I was fiercely independent, not wanting to be anyone's girlfriend, and playing around casually on dating websites when I met him. Well, he changed the girlfriend thing pretty quickly! And we knew we were forever really quickly, like 8-10 weeks in. I was reading unmarried.org at that time, looking for ways to legally protect ourselves without getting hitched.

But about six months in, he started saying things like, "I don't think of you as my girlfriend, I think of you as my future wife," and "I can't wait to marry you," etc. I wasn't weirded out by it, as I knew we'd be together for life, but I had to examine my thoughts on marriage, why I didn't want to get married, etc. Glossing over things majorly, here, obvs. Anyway, about a year into our relationship, when we were planning my move to a different city so we could move in together, I told him I was ready too. I was expecting we'd be engaged right then (no e-ring for me).

I was shocked when he was like, "Whoa, what the fuck?" Not in so many words, but basically that idea. He wasn't ready yet and didn't know when he would be. I felt really betrayed and devastated, mostly because I was really embarrassed and felt rejected. Seriously... HE was the one who kept bringing it up over and over! It took me awhile to get over and we didn't talk about it again for about six months. Then, we started a pattern where we'd discuss it every few months and it would be a different "excuse" every time... he didn't have a ring (the fuck??? he knew I didn't want a ring), we couldn't afford a wedding and he didn't want to elope, etc. There was absolutely nothing wrong with his commitment to me - we completely enmeshed our lives and finances when we moved in together and we considered ourselves life partners. It was just moving from bf/gf to husband and wife that was an issue for him.

This was the worst time. I was rejected over and over and over again and never felt like I got a straight answer. This process took about a year.

Almost a year ago, we had one huge to-do over getting engaged, one of our only big fights. It turns out there were things he was upset about that I was doing/not doing and he hadn't expressed it, but wanted it to be fixed before we got married. I blew up at him because I KNEW he was just bullshitting those other explanations, and he should have told me about these issues A FREAKING YEAR AGO!!!! He has a really difficult time talking about his feelings, especially if he thinks it's going to upset me. (We both go to therapy now fwiw!)

A week after the fight, I was thinking about it and crying, because the things he brought up were hurtful and although true, difficult for me to work through. I felt like I was now being tested and that we would only get engaged when he felt like I was good enough. What if I continue to struggle with those things forever? What if I was never good enough? It was so painful. He woke up (I worked nights at this time) while I was crying and we had a few hours of heart to heart talking about everything. I said that we can continue to work on issues even after we are married, that getting married wouldn't mean we would be immune from having problems, even major ones, that I felt like there was this barrier of perfection I was being expected to attain before I would be "rewarded" and it felt like a power imbalance. I mean, we seriously hashed this shit right the fuck out! 

Here's the worst part of the story... HE PROPOSED DURING THIS TALK!!!!!! Like, at 4am after I'd been crying for 2 hours. Even now, I cringe. Who the hell wants to get engaged while they are fighting about not getting engaged? He said that while he was saying it, he had this overwhelming sense of peace and that he should have asked me a long time ago. For me... I didn't feel quite so peaceful. I did say yes, but the next morning I needed to talk it out again to make sure that he wanted to marry me and hadn't proposed just to shut me up before I was willing to tell anyone else we were engaged.

Unfortunately, it took about 3-4 months and a few more conversations for that niggling feeling that I pressured him to really go away. I still don't look fondly on our engagement "story." Those insecurities still flare up from time to time. It's hard. But the evidence of his commitment to and love for me is so clear that I can't not trust our relationship, our partnership, and our marriage. Because seriously, I am not an easy person to live with, and anyone who wasn't 100% all in would have walked a long time ago.

So... wow, long story. But the point is, even though those conversations REALLY FUCKING SUCK and being in different places is REALLY FUCKING HARD, ultimatums won't solve anything. They will make you feel worse. I didn't use an ultimatum (we'd only been together 2.5 years when we got engaged) and I still felt like shit, lol! I think both parties should just remember that their feelings are totally legitimate. No one should get married before they're ready. But acknowledging the feelings and heartache of the person who is ready, and reassuring them of how much you love them and are committed to them, is really important too.

Oh, and being open about your needs in your relationship and not letting things get swept under the rug. SUPER important. CoughFHcough.  

Wegl13

For us, we both had an expectation that any relationship we were in would be "moving towards marriage,"- with the idea of, if we got to a point where that wasnt the case, we were out.
After a long term relationship where I felt like I was making a lot of long term sacrifices that weren't acknowledged, I made a decision that I wasn't changing my life for a guy unless we were engaged/married. That is- no moving in together. He wasn't getting reckoned into my job, where I moved to, what I bought, etc. I was very upfront about that- he knew about my previous relationship and how hurt I was that I'd sacrificed for this guy that was never sure about how committed he wanted to be. To me, a relationship was about being saying "I'm exclusive to you- for now" and being married meant "I'm committed to you- forever."
What was funny is that I felt like I made a huge decision about my life that was based on him right before we got engaged and to me (maybe not to him), it was a big turning point. The month before he decided he wanted to spend forever with me (about 2-3 months before our engagement), I rehabbed a ball python and I was very interested in adopting him. My husband HATES snakes. I think they are awesome. And I decided not to adopt the snake because of him. To me, that was the first "life decision" (not adopting the snake) that I made specifically based on him.

southernbelle0915

Like others, I'm not a fan of ultimatums. If a couple communicates well about their hopes, dreams, expectations, goals...they should have a pretty good feel about whether they're a good fit before either think of an ultimatum.

In a lot of cases, I think ultimatums arise because the couple is not on the same page about stuff.

WinstonsGirl

I hate ultimatums too.  I read one story of someone who offered an ultimatum, got engaged and then felt horrible cos she felt like he only did it cos she pushed him too.  I want to be with someone who for sure wants to be with me.  I've also never been he on getting married.  More like if it happens cool, but I'd be fine with a committed relationship too.  

DH moved in officially 6 months after we started dating (though we were pretty much living together most days at one house or the other from about 2 months in.  We bought a house together after 9 months and got engaged after about 11.  I was surprised when he proposed.  We had spoken about spending our life together, but nothing specific about marriage . DH really wanted to get married.  

OwlNurse

What a timely post, I'm working through this with my BF of 2 years.  It's been really challenging to talk about marriage; I'm all for it, and he's unsure.  BF is just the kind of guy that's more rooted in the present, so it's been an uphill adventure to discuss marriage, but he surprised me by looking at rings recently.  

It's a horrible feeling to worry I've pushed him into this though, so my next step before anything is to make sure we feel the same way about the future.  But that's, boy, just really terrifying me right now.  I don't believe in ultimatums but a relationship needs goals that match to work. 

Maggie0829

lovemesomemonster said:

To each their own, but I have always believed that you are either committed to each other or not, regardless of being married or on a timeline. I knew that FI and I were it from month one and so did he. We moved in together after 6 months, bought our first house together after 3 years, and bought the second after 5 years. The proposal came right around 6 years and I never once thought I couldn't start building my life with this man because he didn't want to get married right away. He waited until we were both done with school, he had been in a steady job with a retirement and we were comfortable. I am so happy with how everything has worked out, and I can't imagine pressuring him into a timeline that he wouldn't be comfortable with, or losing him because I couldn't wait a couple more years. It has been an incredible 7 years now and I can't wait to have many more with him.

This.  I was with H for 8 years before he proposed (married over 4 now).  At times I thought "ooh I would really like to get married soon" and H would tell me that he wanted to marry me, but never once did I pressure him to pop the question.  He needed to do that in his own time.  And I was completely fine waiting because he was it for me.  In my mind I decided that if we never got married then I would be okay with that because being with him, and having a life with him, was more important then the marriage aspect.

themosthappy91

I guess I'm in the definite minority here- I have always been strongly of the opinion that I would never commit to getting engaged to someone without having lived with them first. I just can't imagine signing up for a lifetime of cohabitation with someone without at the very least doing a significant (meaning at least a year-long) test run.

So I guess you could say that was my ultimatum with H, because while he very much wanted to live together from his own point of view, he comes from a family that frowns upon premarital cohabitation so he would have rather saved himself the trouble. In a way that made it even more important to me that we move in together- it was a way to see if when it came to differences in values between myself and his family (of which there are many) he would choose what was good for us over what would make his parents happy.

Though the pro-ultimatum story in the jezebel article was a ridiculous example and kind of logically incoherent anyway, I do think I fall more in the "ultimatums have their place camp." I think in a relationship that is healthy and strong and going to last an ultimatum is just a stand-in for saying "I feel really strongly about this" and it's going to be heard out and either respected or negotiated. In a relationship that isn't great it's going to end badly obviously, but the point is I don't think in either scenario an ultimatum is going to change the long-term outcome of the relationship. 

Liatris2010

I guess for me it depends on how you think of an ultimatum. If x is not negotiable for me, and you can't do x, then I am going to end our relationship, not as an ultimatum, but because our relationship isn't satisfying one of my non-negotiable needs. Saying so isn't an ultimatum, it is communication. I suppose you can turn that into, "Give me x or I'm going to dump you" but if you talk like that to people you probably don't have many relationships to begin with.

nerdwife

Liatris2010 said:

I guess for me it depends on how you think of an ultimatum. If x is not negotiable for me, and you can't do x, then I am going to end our relationship, not as an ultimatum, but because our relationship isn't satisfying one of my non-negotiable needs. Saying so isn't an ultimatum, it is communication. I suppose you can turn that into, "Give me x or I'm going to dump you" but if you talk like that to people you probably don't have many relationships to begin with.

Yes, I know what you mean, but I think the difference is that the ultimatum at issue was timing. It wasn't "marry me someday or we're breaking up," it was "propose to me in X amount of time or we're breaking up." If you want to get married, you should be with someone who also wants to get married, and you should talk about that early and often. But if you feel you must get married with X amount of time of being together (or before X age, etc. etc.), then that seems - to me, anyway - like an ultimatum, which isn't conducive to a good relationship. Does that make sense?

CMGragain

IMHO, any discussion of marriage that includes the words "maybe" and "someday" is invalid.  I'm afraid that was my bad experience.
DH had been chasing me for 9 years, and I kept pushing him away.  When I finally said, OK, I'm ready, he said "Let's get married in June!"  (It was late March!)  This was real.  This I could believe.

Knottie1444083732

I know I'm late to this party, but I had to hop in to say, I think "ultimatum" is sort of a sexist word. It's generally used when a woman is asking for something she wants/needs, and is willing to make some hard choices (ie, leave the relationship) if she doesn't get it, and the man would rather she just chill. Of course I may be biased: I met my husband in my mid 30s, when I'd left NYC and taken a job back in my hometown. I knew, almost immediately, he was the one, and he said things that led me to believe the same. Not a year later, I lost said job. I missed my friends, I needed a new gig, and I'd had enough of ye olde hometown. But DH wanted me to stay so we could grow the relationship-he'd done long distance before, he said, and didn't want to do it again. (I would have, happily.) So I said: Then we need to get married. If I was going to stay for him & him only, I needed things to be nailed down. He hemmed & hawed a little bit, which honestly kinda broke my heart, and I prepared to break up with him, which meant, like, crying a lot. But at the same time, I felt it was very much the right thing to do: Unlike other relationships I'd had, this one had been clear, honest & straighforward from the beginning, and if we broke up because of timing or whatever, I'd still love & respect him. On the other hand, if I stayed and things didn't work out 5 years down the line ... hmmm, no. He made a last-ditch effort to say that he'd thought about it and NOW he was feeling ok with long-distance, but I thought, given his first response, that would be a mistake. When he proposed, out of nowhere and without a ring, I'd been crying and my eyes were all puffy. Then he insisted that, if we were going to get hitched, he wanted us to do it right away, City Hall style. I'd never wanted to do that, but fair enough. We have now been married 10 years. I still think I made the right choice. I would have totally respected him if he'd said, 'No can do,' though I would have been sad. And knowing him as I do now, I really believe if he really hadn't wanted to get married no number of ultimatums in the world would have gotten him to change his mind. (Sorry for the super-long memoir!)

PamBeesly524

Knottie1444083732 said:

I know I'm late to this party, but I had to hop in to say, I think "ultimatum" is sort of a sexist word. It's generally used when a woman is asking for something she wants/needs, and is willing to make some hard choices (ie, leave the relationship) if she doesn't get it, and the man would rather she just chill. Of course I may be biased: I met my husband in my mid 30s, when I'd left NYC and taken a job back in my hometown. I knew, almost immediately, he was the one, and he said things that led me to believe the same. Not a year later, I lost said job. I missed my friends, I needed a new gig, and I'd had enough of ye olde hometown. But DH wanted me to stay so we could grow the relationship-he'd done long distance before, he said, and didn't want to do it again. (I would have, happily.) So I said: Then we need to get married. If I was going to stay for him & him only, I needed things to be nailed down. He hemmed & hawed a little bit, which honestly kinda broke my heart, and I prepared to break up with him, which meant, like, crying a lot. But at the same time, I felt it was very much the right thing to do: Unlike other relationships I'd had, this one had been clear, honest & straighforward from the beginning, and if we broke up because of timing or whatever, I'd still love & respect him. On the other hand, if I stayed and things didn't work out 5 years down the line ... hmmm, no. He made a last-ditch effort to say that he'd thought about it and NOW he was feeling ok with long-distance, but I thought, given his first response, that would be a mistake. When he proposed, out of nowhere and without a ring, I'd been crying and my eyes were all puffy. Then he insisted that, if we were going to get hitched, he wanted us to do it right away, City Hall style. I'd never wanted to do that, but fair enough. We have now been married 10 years. I still think I made the right choice. I would have totally respected him if he'd said, 'No can do,' though I would have been sad. And knowing him as I do now, I really believe if he really hadn't wanted to get married no number of ultimatums in the world would have gotten him to change his mind. (Sorry for the super-long memoir!)

That's a nice story but I'm not sure how that explains why "ultimatum" is a sexist word? I've heard it used for males as well as females.

OwningAHome1981

thisismynickname said:

From Jezebel:

http://itheedread.jezebel.com/ladies-we-have-moved-past-marriage-ultimatums-okay-1739480100

Thoughts? The comments on the article got fairly heated. 

When I was in my mid-twenties, my boyfriend of nearly 3 years wanted to move in together. I was against living together before engagement/marriage for a variety of reasons, the primary reason being that I had seen many friends move in and out of homes with various partners. As if breaking up is hard enough, now one person's homeless, greaaat. So anyway, I gave him the marriage ultimatum: I expected to be engaged if we were to move in together. Then I relaxed to "engaged within a year of moving in together." Ultimately, we never moved in together and broke up shortly after trying to look for a place together. Now? We're both married to people who are far more right for us than we ever were for each other. 

But, I have friends who just aren't, or weren't, on the same timeline as their boyfriends and remain together. I see how frustrating it is for them. They want the security of marriage, they want to buy a home together and plan a family (not that you can't do that without marriage anyway), while the boyfriend was happy to just be a live-in boyfriend. One couple married after 10 years together and another friend is still waiting (7 or 8 years and counting). I have to be honest; I figured if you weren't on the same timeline in terms of wanting to establish a home and grow a family, that there are plenty of fish in the sea and maybe someone else was out there whose life goals are aligned with yours. I've heard a whole host of reasons for a lack of proposal in friends' relationships, but sometimes it just seems like the guy wants an easy out from the relationship just in case someone better comes along. Under the right circumstances, I think an ultimatum can work. It's like Aidan and Carrie in Sex & the City: "If you don't want to marry me right now, you won't ever want to marry me." 

Security of marriage? The divorce % rate in this country is something in the 60's. Hardly sounds secure to me!

Ultimatums generally always backfire. He will propose when he is ready.

In hindsight, I wish my ex-husband would have waited longer to propose to me. I would have realized how much of a jerk he was before I married him.

mileybangerz

OwningAHome1981 said:

thisismynickname said:

From Jezebel:

http://itheedread.jezebel.com/ladies-we-have-moved-past-marriage-ultimatums-okay-1739480100

Thoughts? The comments on the article got fairly heated. 

When I was in my mid-twenties, my boyfriend of nearly 3 years wanted to move in together. I was against living together before engagement/marriage for a variety of reasons, the primary reason being that I had seen many friends move in and out of homes with various partners. As if breaking up is hard enough, now one person's homeless, greaaat. So anyway, I gave him the marriage ultimatum: I expected to be engaged if we were to move in together. Then I relaxed to "engaged within a year of moving in together." Ultimately, we never moved in together and broke up shortly after trying to look for a place together. Now? We're both married to people who are far more right for us than we ever were for each other. 

But, I have friends who just aren't, or weren't, on the same timeline as their boyfriends and remain together. I see how frustrating it is for them. They want the security of marriage, they want to buy a home together and plan a family (not that you can't do that without marriage anyway), while the boyfriend was happy to just be a live-in boyfriend. One couple married after 10 years together and another friend is still waiting (7 or 8 years and counting). I have to be honest; I figured if you weren't on the same timeline in terms of wanting to establish a home and grow a family, that there are plenty of fish in the sea and maybe someone else was out there whose life goals are aligned with yours. I've heard a whole host of reasons for a lack of proposal in friends' relationships, but sometimes it just seems like the guy wants an easy out from the relationship just in case someone better comes along. Under the right circumstances, I think an ultimatum can work. It's like Aidan and Carrie in Sex & the City: "If you don't want to marry me right now, you won't ever want to marry me." 

Security of marriage? The divorce % rate in this country is something in the 60's. Hardly sounds secure to me!

Ultimatums generally always backfire. He will propose when he is ready.

In hindsight, I wish my ex-husband would have waited longer to propose to me. I would have realized how much of a jerk he was before I married him.

OwningAHome1981 , this thread had been "dead" for 5 days.  Why are you resurrecting it?????

KatWAG

mileybangerz said:

OwningAHome1981 said:

thisismynickname said:

From Jezebel:

http://itheedread.jezebel.com/ladies-we-have-moved-past-marriage-ultimatums-okay-1739480100

Thoughts? The comments on the article got fairly heated. 

When I was in my mid-twenties, my boyfriend of nearly 3 years wanted to move in together. I was against living together before engagement/marriage for a variety of reasons, the primary reason being that I had seen many friends move in and out of homes with various partners. As if breaking up is hard enough, now one person's homeless, greaaat. So anyway, I gave him the marriage ultimatum: I expected to be engaged if we were to move in together. Then I relaxed to "engaged within a year of moving in together." Ultimately, we never moved in together and broke up shortly after trying to look for a place together. Now? We're both married to people who are far more right for us than we ever were for each other. 

But, I have friends who just aren't, or weren't, on the same timeline as their boyfriends and remain together. I see how frustrating it is for them. They want the security of marriage, they want to buy a home together and plan a family (not that you can't do that without marriage anyway), while the boyfriend was happy to just be a live-in boyfriend. One couple married after 10 years together and another friend is still waiting (7 or 8 years and counting). I have to be honest; I figured if you weren't on the same timeline in terms of wanting to establish a home and grow a family, that there are plenty of fish in the sea and maybe someone else was out there whose life goals are aligned with yours. I've heard a whole host of reasons for a lack of proposal in friends' relationships, but sometimes it just seems like the guy wants an easy out from the relationship just in case someone better comes along. Under the right circumstances, I think an ultimatum can work. It's like Aidan and Carrie in Sex & the City: "If you don't want to marry me right now, you won't ever want to marry me." 

Security of marriage? The divorce % rate in this country is something in the 60's. Hardly sounds secure to me!

Ultimatums generally always backfire. He will propose when he is ready.

In hindsight, I wish my ex-husband would have waited longer to propose to me. I would have realized how much of a jerk he was before I married him.

OwningAHome1981 , this thread had been "dead" for 5 days.  Why are you resurrecting it?????

5 days really isn't a big deal. Why are you snarking on the knottie###s who brought it back after... gasp.... 8 days...

luckya23

5 days is still front page news these days!