Does anyone else not really have a problem with PPDs?

stantokm · July 2013

Like PPs, I have no problem with same-sex couples having a ceremony that isn't a legal marriage because they have no other choice. That's an exception to the PPD rule. As a Catholic, I give a slight pass on convalidation ceremonies.

My parents had a convalidation ceremony on their first anniversary. They originally eloped and had a JOP ceremony. Since my father was Catholic and had bypassed the Church to get married, the Catholic Church would consider the marriage invalid. My mother converted to Catholicism and they had their convalidation ceremony, making their marriage "valid" in the eyes of the Church. So, even though they were legally married, they were NOT married in their religion and this was their wedding.

Even so, their ceremony was small. The priest instructed them to each have a Catholic attendant to sign the marriage certificate (NOT the marriage license since that was done a year before), but my mom didn't wear a fancy dress and the reception was just a small party at my grandparents' home without a first dance or any dancing.

Anyway, I give a pass on convalidations if the legal marriage wasn't valid in the Church's opinion (and there are strict rules for what is "valid" versus "invalid"), same-sex marriages, and when couples have to have two religious ceremonies for their different cultures (such as the case above where a couple had to have a ceremony in India, too) if everyone knows about the first ceremony.

BarbLovesDave · July 2013

stantokm said:

My parents had a convalidation ceremony on their first anniversary. They originally eloped and had a JOP ceremony. Since my father was Catholic and had bypassed the Church to get married, the Catholic Church would consider the marriage invalid.

I've seen this error before, and offer a clarification. Lots of people get this wrong.

The Catholic Church does not consider a civil marriage "invalid". The civil marriage is just as valid as any other. If Joe gets married in a civil marriage, separates from his wife, then wants to marry another woman in the Catholic Church without having gotten a civil court divorce, the Church would send him packing. He cannot get married in the Church on the theory that the prior civil marriage was "Church-invalid" and thus in the eyes of the Church he is single.

Nope, in the eyes of the Catholic church, civil marriages are valid civil marriages.

They are not, however, sacramental marriages. Marriage is one of the seven sacraments of the church. Thus, if you want a sacramental marriage, you have to get it within the Church, officiated by a priest, following all the Catholic Church rules. They call it "convalidation", meaning, the marriage is now a sacramental marriage as well as a civil marriage.

I am not Catholic, but am a life-time Episcopalian. I know about Catholic convalidation ceremonies having attended a few and know the legalities. In the Episcopal Church, the Book of Common Prayer has a similar liturgy called "Blessing of a Civil Marriage" that does essentially the same thing. The wording "Blessing of a Civil Marriage" is a bit more straightforward than "Convalidation", and it makes it clear that the original marriage is very much valid.

+misslisa · July 2013

I've been planning my wedding since January, and it's almost here! With less than two months to go, everything's been reserved and paid for. All our Catholic marriage classes are behind us, and my MOH just sent out shower invitations. It's been a tremendous sense of relief to have everything accomplished.

Of course, a week or so ago, I hurt myself and need surgery, soon. It wouldn't have been a problem, but my almost-husband has just taken a new job, going from insurance that covered domestic partners to that which only covers spouses. Awesome timing, no? So I had two choices: either wait (and be unable to walk without pain) for months until after the wedding, or have our civil marriage as soon as possible. There was no question in my other half's mind. We're meeting with a judge and two of our friends this week.

So I guess I'll be having a PPD, so to speak. The anxiety of it all, looking like we're just playing around or somehow being frauds, has been making me slightly nauseous for days. I'm so excited to be getting married, even though it's going to be sooner than expected, but there's this constant worry about what people will think when I don the white dress for what will now be our convalidation.

Deep breaths for me and crossed fingers for my surgery. I can only hope that our loved ones will be understanding and tolerant of what will prove to be a very wedding-looking convalidation ceremony.

NYCBruin · July 2013

+misslisa said:

I've been planning my wedding since January, and it's almost here! With less than two months to go, everything's been reserved and paid for. All our Catholic marriage classes are behind us, and my MOH just sent out shower invitations. It's been a tremendous sense of relief to have everything accomplished.
Of course, a week or so ago, I injured myself and need surgery. It wouldn't have been a problem, but my almost-husband has just taken a new job, going from insurance that covered domestic partners to that which only covers spouses. Awesome timing, no? So I had two choices: either wait (and be unable to walk without pain) for months until after the wedding, or have our civil marriage as soon as possible. There was no question in my other half's mind. We're meeting with a judge and two of our friends this week.
So I guess I'll be having a PPD, so to speak. The anxiety of it all, looking like we're just playing around or somehow being frauds, has been making me slightly nauseous for days. I'm so excited to be getting married, even though it's going to be sooner than expected, but there's this constant worry about what people will think when I don the white dress for what will now be our convalidation.
Deep breaths for me and crossed fingers for my surgery. I can only hope that our loved ones will be understanding and tolerant of what will prove to be a very wedding-looking convalidation ceremony.

I'm not going to comment on the PPD and I'm sorry to hear that you were injured but I have a few questions.

1. Have you talked to your priest about this? There could be some major issues there.

2. Have you talked to the insurance company? It usually takes a while to get processed on new insurance, especially to add another person on a plan. Also, since you weren't insured at the time you were injured they might not be required to cover your surgery at all since it will be a pre-existing condition and the changes in the pre-existing condition rules don't kick in until 2014.

+misslisa · July 2013

We've talked to the deacon, who is himself fine with the situation, though he's going to do some further investigating regarding the structure of the ceremony and let us know.

My fiance' did some homework on the insurance situation and spoke with the company already, so whatever needs to be accomplished on that end appears to have been sorted.

margaretskye · July 2013

I honestly don't give a darn as long as they let people know that they are already legally married.

crunchymamaof2 · July 2013

+misslisa said:

We've talked to the deacon, who is himself fine with the situation, though he's going to do some further investigating regarding the structure of the ceremony and let us know.
My fiance' did some homework on the insurance situation and spoke with the company already, so whatever needs to be accomplished on that end appears to have been sorted.

I'm very surprised your deacon is okay with this. From what I learned on the Catholic boards Convalidations aren't something you can just get on a whim because you wanted to get married sooner. From what I understood Convalidations are for those who convert or come back to Catholicism. I also didn't think churches wanted them to be wedding like and big productions. @txkristen or @monkeysip is this correct?

[Deleted User] · July 2013

Yeah, we're going to a PPD in a few months and I am not pleased. It is going to cost us a ton of money to get there, and they're pretending they're not already married. It makes me pretty upset.

ashleyep · July 2013

I think a PPD bothers me more in theory than practice. I don't really like when a couple lies about it, and I don't like the implication that their courthouse wedding isn't "real." But I have a coworker who went to city hall with her fiance of 10 years to get married so he could get on our insurance. They're planning a full blown wedding reception next summer. Fine, whatever, doesn't really bother me, I get why you'd want to plan that day. But she hasn't even told her parents, which is really the only part that really bothers me.

crunchymamaof2 · July 2013

ashleyep said:

I think a PPD bothers me more in theory than practice. I don't really like when a couple lies about it, and I don't like the implication that their courthouse wedding isn't "real." But I have a coworker who went to city hall with her fiance of 10 years to get married so he could get on our insurance. They're planning a full blown wedding reception next summer. Fine, whatever, doesn't really bother me, I get why you'd want to plan that day. But she hasn't even told her parents, which is really the only part that really bothers me.

they waited 10 years, what's 1 more?

ashleyep · July 2013

acove2006 said:

ashleyep said:

I think a PPD bothers me more in theory than practice. I don't really like when a couple lies about it, and I don't like the implication that their courthouse wedding isn't "real." But I have a coworker who went to city hall with her fiance of 10 years to get married so he could get on our insurance. They're planning a full blown wedding reception next summer. Fine, whatever, doesn't really bother me, I get why you'd want to plan that day. But she hasn't even told her parents, which is really the only part that really bothers me.

they waited 10 years, what's 1 more?

My company pays 100% health insurance, I'm assuming that's the motivation. Not that that's a valid reason, but like I said, IDGAF. She shouldn't be hiding it from her family.

wrigleyville · July 2013

I know a couple who got married almost two years ago because he was leaving for the Navy and she didn't have a good job or benefits. They haven't told anyone. I found their marriage license in the paper under the vital statistics section. Their "wedding" is this October, and she posts Facebook updates every few days about finding her dress, the photo booth, etc, and how she can't wait to be married oh em geeeee!!! She also refers to him as her "fiance". Ugh.

It's taking everything I have to keep my mouth shut. We aren't going to the "wedding", and we're going to send them an anniversary card on their next anniversary (January). Passive-aggressive, sure, but at least I'm not telling her entire family and all of our mutual friends that she's lying to get attention and presents. She's a total AW by nature, so I can't say I'm shocked.

[Deleted User] · July 2013

So long as they're not lying about their marital status it doesn't bother me so much. FI's stepbrother and cousin both eloped and are planning PPDs later this year. We're going to both but firmly calling them vow renewals.

monkeysip · July 2013

acove2006 said:

+misslisa said:

We've talked to the deacon, who is himself fine with the situation, though he's going to do some further investigating regarding the structure of the ceremony and let us know.
My fiance' did some homework on the insurance situation and spoke with the company already, so whatever needs to be accomplished on that end appears to have been sorted.

I'm very surprised your deacon is okay with this. From what I learned on the Catholic boards Convalidations aren't something you can just get on a whim because you wanted to get married sooner. From what I understood Convalidations are for those who convert or come back to Catholicism. I also didn't think churches wanted them to be wedding like and big productions. @txkristen or @monkeysip is this correct?

Yeah, convalidations aren't easy to get, and it depends on the parish. My parish won't even do them.

I'm sure there's a priest/parish out there somewhere that will do it, but in general, the Church really doesn't like it when you "plan" to just get married out of the church, then have a convaldiation later. That's almost like sinning, knowing you can just go to confession later (which is called the sin of presumption). I'm not saying OP didn't have a good reason. I'm really not judging here, just saying that some priests won't do it unless you actually seem repentent for your decision and want to mend the situation.

If you do have a convalidation, it *is* considered your wedding day in the sense that you do truly become sacramentally married. In that sense, it is a very solemn occasion, and it's ok to invite all your family, friends, etc. and have a big celebration. At the same time, however, you shouldn't make any charade of getting married legally because you ARE already married in the eyes of the state. And since the sacrament is not about all the showy stuff, convalidations are *typically* not done with the big bridal party, big poofy dress, etc.

I mean, in some ways it is kind of like a vow renewal (fewer "bride" things), but in some ways it is an original wedding since you're receiving the sacrament for the first time. I would just suggest to men and women doing this to go ahead and invite their family/friends and celebrate, but don't act like you're a "bride and groom" all over again, if that makes sense. Keep the focus on the sacrament, not the "wedding" extras.

Also, I agree @Stagemanager about just moving up the church ceremony. If people talked to their priest to explain the situation, most of the time they'd probably agree, and would at least let you say your vows to each other during a normal mass (which is how catholic weddings used to be done anyway). Yeah, you miss out on the big shebang ceremony, but at least you got to have your sacramental wedding the first time around and don't have to plan a PPD.

+misslisa · July 2013

monkeysip said:

acove2006 said:

+misslisa said:

We've talked to the deacon, who is himself fine with the situation, though he's going to do some further investigating regarding the structure of the ceremony and let us know.
My fiance' did some homework on the insurance situation and spoke with the company already, so whatever needs to be accomplished on that end appears to have been sorted.

I'm very surprised your deacon is okay with this. From what I learned on the Catholic boards Convalidations aren't something you can just get on a whim because you wanted to get married sooner. From what I understood Convalidations are for those who convert or come back to Catholicism. I also didn't think churches wanted them to be wedding like and big productions. @txkristen or @monkeysip is this correct?

Yeah, convalidations aren't easy to get, and it depends on the parish. My parish won't even do them.

I'm sure there's a priest/parish out there somewhere that will do it, but in general, the Church really doesn't like it when you "plan" to just get married out of the church, then have a convaldiation later. That's almost like sinning, knowing you can just go to confession later (which is called the sin of presumption). I'm not saying OP didn't have a good reason. I'm really not judging here, just saying that some priests won't do it unless you actually seem repentent for your decision and want to mend the situation.

If you do have a convalidation, it *is* considered your wedding day in the sense that you do truly become sacramentally married. In that sense, it is a very solemn occasion, and it's ok to invite all your family, friends, etc. and have a big celebration. At the same time, however, you shouldn't make any charade of getting married legally because you ARE already married in the eyes of the state. And since the sacrament is not about all the showy stuff, convalidations are *typically* not done with the big bridal party, big poofy dress, etc.

I mean, in some ways it is kind of like a vow renewal (fewer "bride" things), but in some ways it is an original wedding since you're receiving the sacrament for the first time. I would just suggest to men and women doing this to go ahead and invite their family/friends and celebrate, but don't act like you're a "bride and groom" all over again, if that makes sense. Keep the focus on the sacrament, not the "wedding" extras.

Also, I agree @Stagemanager about just moving up the church ceremony. If people talked to their priest to explain the situation, most of the time they'd probably agree, and would at least let you say your vows to each other during a normal mass (which is how catholic weddings used to be done anyway). Yeah, you miss out on the big shebang ceremony, but at least you got to have your sacramental wedding the first time around and don't have to plan a PPD.

If the deacon weren't accepting of the circumstances, we would look into trying to move the date. My fiance' had a pretty good understanding of what all of this would take before he asked - he has a theological background and was a pastor before converting to Catholicism - and we're very grateful to the Church for their willingness to proceed with us. We know that these things are never a given.

It is certainly a PPD in at least one respect - it would be rough from financial perspective if we needed to scrap everything we've planned. The dress was a big deal, financially and emotionally. It's already been extensively altered. If I had no choice but to put the day away, I would, and we'd eat the deposits. Treat it as an expensive learning experience and all that. So that's the piece of selfishness that I can't pretend isn't there. There may still be things we need to change, and we're waiting for additional guidance from the deacon.

Meanwhile, we're notifying family and friends of the situation this week. I understand if anyone chooses not to attend the convalidation as a result of it all, I know it looks dodgy from the outside. I'm hoping for the best.

GypsyWife_ · July 2013

To the OP I agree with you. Here's why I don't judge others. I would love to get married legally in a catholic church. But i will probably never get legally married. So I'm having a commitment ceremony that I will be saving up for. Its a PPD but that's what my family and I want. Everyone knows so I'm not lieing about it just to clarify that. So far everyone is very excited.

NYCBruin · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

@+misslisa, my point is why isn't moving the religious ceremony your FIRST choice? Then you get to have your church wedding and be married in the eyes of God ON your real wedding day.

I'm right there with you, Stage. I couldn't imagine not "doing things the way God would want" on the day of my wedding if that was at all a possibility.

Why not get married in the church on the day you had planned to get married at the courthouse? Then have a big party to celebrate with everyone on the day you had originally planned your wedding.

ETA clarity

+misslisa · July 2013

NYCBruin said:

StageManager14 said:

@+misslisa, my point is why isn't moving the religious ceremony your FIRST choice? Then you get to have your church wedding and be married in the eyes of God ON your real wedding day.

I'm right there with you, Stage. I couldn't imagine not "doing things the way God would want" on the day of my wedding if that was at all a possibility.

Why not get married in the church on the day you had planned to get married at the courthouse? Then have a big party to celebrate with everyone on the day you had originally planned your wedding.

ETA clarity

We didn't have a whole lot of time, unfortunately. The time from scheduling surgery to having surgery is about a week and a half. Due to multiple factors in our lives, the simplest route was taken, and we're getting a judge on five days' notice. Had the Church required us to do so, we would have need to change everything, but that fortunately isn't the case

ETA formatting - missed the quote button!

happyfor25 · July 2013

An issue she might have if she had simply moved the Catholic ceremony up to an earlier date and then invited people to be guests at said ceremony, she would be required to host them after the ceremony. It would then seem really crazy to have another party in several months, not to mention really expensive.

gpeeples · July 2013

I wouldn't do it, but honestly, it doesn't offend me, as long as the couple doesn't lie about it. I know a couple that got married a few months ago and is having their "wedding" in September, since they already paid the down payment for the venue before they decided to have their spontaneous wedding. Their friends and family were actually really happy to hear that even though they were already married they were going to have a wedding for them to attend, with the ceremony and all. Again, not for me, but I'm not offended by it.

happyfor25 · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

An issue she might have if she had simply moved the Catholic ceremony up to an earlier date and then invited people to be guests at said ceremony, she would be required to host them after the ceremony. It would then seem really crazy to have another party in several months, not to mention really expensive.
This problem doesn't go away because it's at the courthouse. The couple still needs to host something for those that attend that ceremony.

You're absolutely right. I was just assuming that she wanted her guests to witness the convalidation ceremony but that if they went to the courthouse it would be private. My assumption may be wrong since she I don't think she said what her plan was for guests. If she invites guests to the civil ceremony, she will absolutely have to host them after.

Does anyone else not really have a problem with PPDs?

Re: Does anyone else not really have a problem with PPDs?

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