Man's name first on an invitation... must I?

HisGirlFriday13 · May 2014

lolo883 said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

MagicInk said:

If you just so happen to marry another chick...do you not ever get to be Mrs then? Because you can only be Mrs if you're willing to take your husband's first name as well. But if you happen to marry another chick...there is no husband.

FI was always "I'm gonna stay Ms!" and now she's all "I kinda like Mrs too". But...I'm still not a man. Even if she takes my last name.

I honestly feel like this is one of the areas where etiquette just needs some time to play catch-up with changing social norms.

What I don't get, honestly, is why it's so hard for people to just ASK what people go by. I got asked that all the time before I got married, and I still get asked it now. It's not offensive to me. It's really not.

If you ask and then ignore what I said, that's offensive and I'll be pissed. If you don't ask and get it wrong, I'll just shrug, correct it on the RSVP card, and move on with my life.

But I won't get offended if you ask me.

My only deal with this is I can't even get addresses for my dang guest list, let alone phone numbers. :-p I'll be happy if these things go out in the mail at all, titles and full names be damned. Just "whoever lives at 321 Elm Street, come to my wedding! Would you like chicken or fish? Hey, bring a guest! Why not?!"

Well, yes, that's a whole different set of problems right there! And I feel your pain.

CMGragain · May 2014

lolo883 said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

MagicInk said:

If you just so happen to marry another chick...do you not ever get to be Mrs then? Because you can only be Mrs if you're willing to take your husband's first name as well. But if you happen to marry another chick...there is no husband.

FI was always "I'm gonna stay Ms!" and now she's all "I kinda like Mrs too". But...I'm still not a man. Even if she takes my last name.

I honestly feel like this is one of the areas where etiquette just needs some time to play catch-up with changing social norms.

What I don't get, honestly, is why it's so hard for people to just ASK what people go by. I got asked that all the time before I got married, and I still get asked it now. It's not offensive to me. It's really not.

If you ask and then ignore what I said, that's offensive and I'll be pissed. If you don't ask and get it wrong, I'll just shrug, correct it on the RSVP card, and move on with my life.

But I won't get offended if you ask me.

My only deal with this is I can't even get addresses for my dang guest list, let alone phone numbers. :-p I'll be happy if these things go out in the mail at all, titles and full names be damned. Just "whoever lives at 321 Elm Street, come to my wedding! Would you like chicken or fish? Hey, bring a guest! Why not?!"

See how much easier it was in the old days when everybody was either Mrs. John Smith or Miss Mary Smith?

bouncertony · May 2014

CMGragain said:

lolo883 said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

MagicInk said:

If you just so happen to marry another chick...do you not ever get to be Mrs then? Because you can only be Mrs if you're willing to take your husband's first name as well. But if you happen to marry another chick...there is no husband.

FI was always "I'm gonna stay Ms!" and now she's all "I kinda like Mrs too". But...I'm still not a man. Even if she takes my last name.

I honestly feel like this is one of the areas where etiquette just needs some time to play catch-up with changing social norms.

What I don't get, honestly, is why it's so hard for people to just ASK what people go by. I got asked that all the time before I got married, and I still get asked it now. It's not offensive to me. It's really not.

If you ask and then ignore what I said, that's offensive and I'll be pissed. If you don't ask and get it wrong, I'll just shrug, correct it on the RSVP card, and move on with my life.

But I won't get offended if you ask me.

My only deal with this is I can't even get addresses for my dang guest list, let alone phone numbers. :-p I'll be happy if these things go out in the mail at all, titles and full names be damned. Just "whoever lives at 321 Elm Street, come to my wedding! Would you like chicken or fish? Hey, bring a guest! Why not?!"

See how much easier it was in the old days when everybody was either Mrs. John Smith or Miss Mary Smith?

But that totally negates same sex couples. Which of course, was what was done...back in the old days. When "bachelors" lived together as "roommates".

CMGragain · May 2014

Nope. No problem with Miss Jane Smith and Miss Mary Doe.
I didn't say I wanted to return to those days. I remember the Mad Men days, and the limitations on being female. But it WAS easier to address mail.

bouncertony · May 2014

CMGragain said:

Nope. No problem with Miss Jane Smith and Miss Mary Doe.
I didn't say I wanted to return to those days. I remember the Mad Men days, and the limitations on being female. But it WAS easier to address mail.

But now same sex couples are getting married. Jane and Mary are no longer Miss. Heck Mary might even take Jane's last name. Aren't they now Mrs? Even though there is no husband involved.

A previous post implied you can only be Mrs if you are taking your husband's name and being referred to as Mrs. John Smith.

And hell I know of guys taking their wives last names! Or coming up with some all together new name. Aren't their wives still Mrs if they want?

CMGragain · May 2014

Under today's rules, women can be anything they want, but if they use Mrs, Jane Doe and Mrs. Susan Jones, people will assume they are divorced, since this format is mostly used by divorced women. As other posters said, modern etiquette is evolving to meet the needs of new situations. Men have never changed their name, at least historically, with marriage. Times are changing, but with those changes comes more complicated rules, and ladies who are offended by traditional etiquette (which is still proper, by the way).

theartistformerlyknownas · May 2014

Today's rules and peoples assumptions about them are stupid.

HisGirlFriday13 · May 2014

CMGragain said:

Under today's rules, women can be anything they want, but if they use Mrs, Jane Doe and Mrs. Susan Jones, people will assume they are divorced, since this format is mostly used by divorced women. As other posters said, modern etiquette is evolving to meet the needs of new situations. Men have never changed their name, at least historically, with marriage. Times are changing, but with those changes comes more complicated rules, and ladies who are offended by traditional etiquette (which is still proper, by the way).

I disagree. I think most people will see that and think, 'Oh, HisGirl got married and took DH's last name, so she's Mrs. HisGirl DHSurname.'

Technically, according to Miss Manners, divorced women became Mrs. Maiden Married, to signify the divorce. They were Mrs. John Smith if they were married or widowed.

And quite frankly, I'm not interested in addressing things in a way that 'makes it easier,' (unless we're talking about the USPS, in which case I endorse writing in LARGE CAPITAL LETTERS because I don't trust them to be able to read and do things properly), I am interested in addressing people the way they want to be addressed and in a way that honours their relationships.

Fundamentally, as we say on the boards all the time, etiquette is about your guests' comfort, and that absolutely starts with addressing them properly.

There are lots of boxes I'm not interested in being forced into anymore, and one of them is the bullshit idea that EVERYONE of a certain station -- married, single, divorced, widowed, whatever -- has to be addressed the same way. No.

theartistformerlyknownas · May 2014

Preach it HisGirl!

Let's make up new titles. @MagicInk, what do you want to be called when you're a wife? Make it something awesome.

VulgarGirl · May 2014

lolo883 said:

Preach it HisGirl!

Let's make up new titles. @MagicInk, what do you want to be called when you're a wife? Make it something awesome.

Man...this is a lot of pressure. Ok, I'm trying to of something awesome....

HisGirlFriday13 · May 2014

MagicInk said:

lolo883 said:

Preach it HisGirl!

Let's make up new titles. @MagicInk, what do you want to be called when you're a wife? Make it something awesome.

Man...this is a lot of pressure. Ok, I'm trying to of something awesome....

I don't think we have to make up new titles, I think we just have to expand the titles we have.

It's fucking BULLSHIT to think that you can only be Mrs. DHFirst DHSurname. NO. You got married, you're a Mrs. Whether you go from being Miss Jane Austen to Mrs. Jane Austen or to Mrs. Jane Dickens or to Mrs. Charles Dickens is your choice, not anyone else's.

Your title changed. Not you. Kate Middleton became the Duchess of Cambridge -- but she's still Duchess Catherine (well, OK, I guess her name kind of changed, since they keep calling her by her full name these days, but that's a pretentious thing, not an etiquette thing. And who knows? Maybe she'd prefer to be Catherine rather than Kate. I don't know her.)

I'm HisGirl. That's my name. I'm now a Mrs., 'cause we got married, but I'm still HisGirl.

I think the only hard-and-fast rules about this are:

1. People get to decide for themselves how they want to be addressed. You may disagree with their choices privately, but you must respect them publicly.

2. You should not be afraid to ask how people are being addressed. If you do not ask, how will you know?

3. You may not get offended if someone asks how you prefer to be addressed. They're trying, so accept the good-faith gesture.

4. Elderly relatives who genuinely mean well may be forgiven for making a mistake if they haven't otherwise been informed, but they are to be corrected gently for future reference.

5. It is always acceptable to be offended if someone spells your name wrong, especially when they're FB friends with you and you have a very common six-letter first name. (I'm still shirty about this one. DH's coworker sent an invite to our house with BOTH of our names wrong. Seriously. How do you eff that up?)

mysticl · May 2014

CMGragain said:

Under today's rules, women can be anything they want, but if they use Mrs, Jane Doe and Mrs. Susan Jones, people will assume they are divorced, since this format is mostly used by divorced women. As other posters said, modern etiquette is evolving to meet the needs of new situations. Men have never changed their name, at least historically, with marriage. Times are changing, but with those changes comes more complicated rules, and ladies who are offended by traditional etiquette (which is still proper, by the way).

Actually, a lot of people I know would assume they were married or widowed. I've run into a lot of people who think "Ms." is specifically for divorced women.

CMGragain · May 2014

mysticl said:

CMGragain said:

Under today's rules, women can be anything they want, but if they use Mrs, Jane Doe and Mrs. Susan Jones, people will assume they are divorced, since this format is mostly used by divorced women. As other posters said, modern etiquette is evolving to meet the needs of new situations. Men have never changed their name, at least historically, with marriage. Times are changing, but with those changes comes more complicated rules, and ladies who are offended by traditional etiquette (which is still proper, by the way).

Actually, a lot of people I know would assume they were married or widowed. I've run into a lot of people who think "Ms." is specifically for divorced women.

Yes, I've heard that, too, and it is wrong. Just as "Miss" doesn't mean a little girl.

themuffinman16 · May 2014

Can we just get rid of Mrs., Ms. and, Miss and replace it with one title... that does not reflect our social status. The men have Mister. I am offering up Mzrs. or Thor

theartistformerlyknownas · May 2014

Technically Miss, Ms and Mrs all originated as abbreviations of Mistress; let's just go with that. Mistress Lolo sounds badass.

themuffinman16 · May 2014

. It is ridiculous that it is anyone's business how to address you based on your current marital status. If we only had one term it would make sending stationary much easier, and remove the faux pas of addressing someone in a title they do not prefer. Still waiting for Knotties to approve Thor.

KatieinBkln · May 2014

I came here to approve Thor. I will always approve of Thor. Mmm, beefy Chris Hemsworth...wait, where am I? What's going on?

Maggie0829 · May 2014

VulgarGirl · May 2014

lolo883 said:

Technically Miss, Ms and Mrs all originated as abbreviations of Mistress; let's just go with that. Mistress Lolo sounds badass.

Mistress Fiona. Oh yeah. I like that.

kitty8403 · May 2014

themuffinman16 said:
Would it be awful if I put some guests on the same lines as their mates, even though they are united through common law for 20 plus years?

I do live in a common law state. The couple may be married, but that doesn't necessarily mean she is using his last name (legally or socially). If you don't know what name she prefers to go by, you need to ask. If she isnt using his name socially, I would expect you to treat a common law couple like any other married couple where the wife has kept her name.

kitty8403 · May 2014

mysticl said:

CMGragain said:

Under today's rules, women can be anything they want, but if they use Mrs, Jane Doe and Mrs. Susan Jones, people will assume they are divorced, since this format is mostly used by divorced women. As other posters said, modern etiquette is evolving to meet the needs of new situations. Men have never changed their name, at least historically, with marriage. Times are changing, but with those changes comes more complicated rules, and ladies who are offended by traditional etiquette (which is still proper, by the way).

Actually, a lot of people I know would assume they were married or widowed. I've run into a lot of people who think "Ms." is specifically for divorced women.

^this. Until I started stalking Cranes, I was under the very strong impression that you never used Ms. except for divorcees or as a default for women of unknown marital status/history.

biggrouch · May 2014

Can we just get rid of Mrs., Ms. and, Miss and replace it with one title... that does not reflect our social status.

Wasn't that why the feminists invented "Ms." in the first place? :-/ Only I guess a lot of women never wanted that anyway.

theartistformerlyknownas · May 2014

kitty8403 said:

Would it be awful if I put some guests on the same lines as their mates, even though they are united through common law for 20 plus years?
I do live in a common law state. The couple may be married, but that doesn't necessarily mean she is using his last name (legally or socially). If you don't know what name she prefers to go by, you need to ask. If she isnt using his name socially, I would expect you to treat a common law couple like any other married couple where the wife has kept her name.

I think she means next to each other on the same line, not using the same last name.

Ms Jane Doe and Mr Samuel Smith (typically reserved for married couples with different last names)

vs

Ms Jane Doe

Mr Samuel Smith

(typically used for couples invited together who are not married)

kitty8403 · May 2014

lolo883 said:

kitty8403 said:

themuffinman16 said:
Would it be awful if I put some guests on the same lines as their mates, even though they are united through common law for 20 plus years?

I do live in a common law state. The couple may be married, but that doesn't necessarily mean she is using his last name (legally or socially). If you don't know what name she prefers to go by, you need to ask. If she isnt using his name socially, I would expect you to treat a common law couple like any other married couple where the wife has kept her name.

I think she means next to each other on the same line, not using the same last name.

Ms Jane Doe and Mr Samuel Smith (typically reserved for married couples with different last names)

vs

Ms Jane Doe

Mr Samuel Smith

(typically used for couples invited together who are not married)

---SIB!---
Interesting. Cranes still shows separate lines for married with different names, but uses the word "and." The woman's name goes first.

Either way, yeah, what I'm getting at is that a common-law marriage should be treated like any other marriage. If you live in a common-law state, or they came from one, these people ARE married. To get out, they have to go through a divorce. Follow the same rules for married couples, never unmarried couples living together.

Edit: oh shit. Caffeine is finally kicking in. Ok, so the problem here is that common-law couples often run into people who think their relationship isn't "real" and doesn't deserve the same social respect as a more traditional marriage. But they are married and you need to respect that. It's not appropriate to address a married woman as if she were single--it disrespects her relationship. (Yes, feminism, I agree, but as PPs said, we haven't caught up to either defining relationships for men or for gay/lesbian couples in forms of address, or entirely removing relationship status from women's titles.) So YES, if they have a common-law marriage, put her on the same line/use the same format you'd use for other married women! Don't risk offending a married woman by addressing her as if she were unmarried. You CAN ask if she would prefer to be addressed differently, though.

kitty8403 · May 2014

Side note: there are a couple of places where common law only comes into play for court issues. By and large, though, a common-law relationship is its own form of legal marriage in the states that recognize it.

Which is another thought for the PPDers. A wedding, even a JOP wedding, is not always a requirement for marriage. You can be married without any "wedding" at all. You can even be married by proxy, depending on where you live, meaning you can be married even without being present at your own wedding. I *think* only one state still does double proxy weddings, though (marriage in which neither party is present for solemnization--both members of the couple have stand-ins).

kitty8403 · May 2014

CMGragain said:
Common law marriage is only recognized in six states and the District of Columbia. I wouldn't address an invitation to someone incorrectly. If they want to be a married couple and they do not reside in a common law state, a courthouse solution is easy. Ask them how they prefer to be addressed.

Six states sounds low to me--I've seen lists that show more like 11? Not sure how old they were, though. Anyway, this depends on where the couple was from. If they do not live in a common-law state but previously formed a common-law marriage someplace that did recognize it, they are already married. According to my state supreme court page, all common-law marriages contracted here are still valid if the couple moves out of state. Going to the courthouse would be like trying to get married twice.

Since common-law couples don't have marriage licenses, my state allows them to file additional documentation *if they want to* that can save them paperwork hassle in dealing with large agencies, insurance companies, etc. But it is entirely optional and doesn't reflect on the validity of the original marriage.

If they don't live in a common-law state and never did, then yes, they'd have to go to the courthouse if they want legal recognition of their relationship.

Edit: little story. I was visiting a girl I knew from high school a few years ago, shortly after she'd had her second? Third? child by the same man. We got to chatting and I was a dummy and asked whether they were thinking about getting married. She looked shocked and said, "We ARE married! We have a common-law marriage." Her partner confirmed this in a later random conversation.
Point being, OP, common-law couples take their marriages seriously. If you're asking how to address them, do them the courtesy of treating their marriage like it's a marriage.

wandajune6 · May 2014

I grew up in a family of serious feminists and opinionated women.

When I was learning the different between Ms., Miss, and Mrs., my grandmother's response was that it was society's way of telling women that we're defined by our marital status. She also explained that changing your name is the traditional way of showing that you're property.

I believe that things have changed since then. However, I will still always be Ms. Why? Because it's my choice. Will I be offended if you use the wrong title? Not unless I've previously shared my opinion with you.

That said, I'd be a bit offended if I get addressed as Mrs. FI'sFirst FI'sLast. Besides being incredibly formal, it defines me through him. That's not ok.

I addressed my STDs and intend to address invitations as:
Ms. HerFirst HerLast and Mr. HisFirst and HisLast
Kids names

We're not using inner envelopes so I'm still struggling on how to give plus ones to truly single friends. I just seems odd to send something to "Ms. HerFirst HerLast and Guest"!

CMGragain · May 2014

Sorry, my mistake. Here are the states that allow common law marriages:
Common law marriage can still be contracted in Alabama, Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, the District of Columbia.

poodledoodleooo · June 2014

I follow this guide: http://www.emilypost.com/forms-of-address/titles/96-guide-to-addressing-correspondence

Man's name first on an invitation... must I?

Re: Man's name first on an invitation... must I?

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