Update the talk happened. I need some serious advice from strangers.

luckya23 · February 2015

novella1186 said:

ShesSoCold said:

ohannabelle said:

SJM7538 said:

I'm about to just lose it. I made a post a few days ago about changing my mind on kids and within that post I mentioned H and I have had a really rocky year but things were getting better. or so I thought... you guys I think he has a profile on Ashley Madison. I'm not 100 percent sure but there are things that I feel like are way to coincidental. when I was at work on Thursday he made a phone call to some random toll free number. I just got this weird feeling so I googled it... Customer service for Ashley Madison. so thinking maybe it was a wrong number and he called back (that happens right ?) checked his phone and nope he called it. 4 minute phone call. so I searched the site and found a user that lives in our town, has the same age height and wieght as H and his birthday is part of the username. Idk what to do. I mean obviously I think this is him. but I am not 100 percent sure. do I admit I looked at his cell phone bill and found this info without knowing 100 percent sure. I am wreck. I'm going to just try to nap now I think. and if that doesn't work... drink .

I'd catfish him, or get a close friend to do it. See if that Ashley Madison profile guy sends a picture or sets up a meeting.

If he's a liar or cheater, there's absolutely no point in asking him, because liars will simply lie their way out of it, and you still don't know, and now you've tipped them off so they can be even sneakier.
Catfish him. Not from your own phone or IP address.

If you're wrong, you can get busy working on your trust issues.

I don't know if this is what a therapist would say is the right thing to do, but this is what I would do too. If this is him, he'd likely lie to get out of it. If he goes to meet up with some chick and it turns out to be you in the hotel room, you have proof. This entire situation NEEDS to be addressed, whether he's cheating or not.

Regardless, I'm so sorry you're going through this and I'm sending hugs.

Even then, it's not proof. I've known guys like this, and they'll lie as much as they need to to avoid taking any accountability. I'd almost bet he would say he KNEW it was his wife talking to him online all along, so that's why he met up with her.

The further you go for "proof," the more you've violated their trust and privacy, so now you're committing the same wrong that you're angry at them for. It's best (I think) to just be straight-forward, cut the bullshit, and have a very honest conversation.

I strongly disagree with this! And how is it not victim blaming?

KatieinBkln · February 2015

themosthappy91 said:

tcnoble said:

melbenso said:

photokitty said:

Do you have access to his phone? I would imagine he has the app on his phone if he has an account. I would want o find out as much as I could before I confronted him for fear of him wiping all the evidence and telling me I was paranoid.

I'm so sorry you are going through this.

Speaking as someone who once went through a SOs phone when I thought he was cheating on me. Don't do it. Invading his privacy and betraying his trust isn't right, even if he is betraying your trust in another way. It ruined my relationship. (He wasn't cheating, that I ever discovered, but the damage was done when I went through his stuff.) I know its hard not to skulk around and try and find evidence while being sneaky, but it really is better if you confront him. If you aren't comfortable doing it on your own, maybe go see a couples counselor? I'm sorry that you have to go through this.

This. The invasion of privacy on either end is just enough to make everything go haywire. Your trust in him was in jeopardy the second you felt you had to go looking around.. and his trust in you will be broken because you snooped and didn't talk to him about it.

What he has to say may not be what you want to hear, but it will (truthfully) feel SO much better once you get it all out there. It's better than walking on eggshells and wondering. Hugs to you!!!

The thing is, it seems like she HAS tried to talk to him about it. She specifically says she's tried to talk to him about it and he just shuts down. It's all well and good to say "you need to talk this out" or "you should look into couple's counseling" but that doesn't really apply when he's clearly unwilling to participate.

She's said that if he's cheating she's done with this relationship, so I would snoop in her shoes because I don't think she's likely to get a satisfying answer she can base her decision on if she doesn't. Catfish him, look through his phone, whatever- the point is you need to know the truth and I doubt you're going to get it if you sit down to talk to him without any evidence to force it out of him. He's just going to brush you off like he has before.

I just think maybe other people on here recommending talking to him straightaway and "getting it all out on the table" don't realize how unrealistic that is if someone is a cheater and a liar. He will deny deny deny, and then delete all the evidence. And in the (extremely unlikely, in my opinion) event that he really isn't hiding anything? He needs to understand that his behavior and unwillingness to talk has in part driven you to this point and take responsibility for that be agreeing to see a counselor to work on your issues.

But if you get that sense, then you've STILL found out what you need to find out. Like, are you (general now, not just OP) totally comfortable being with a person you can't fully trust? Sure, you didn't "definitively" find out if he was cheating, but you found out that he's being shady and callous of your feelings.

Straight up, if I found something weird on our bill and confronted FI about it, he'd probably go, "Wait, what?" look at the bill, then laugh and tell me the weird story. If he started getting mad that I dared look at the phone bill and "snoop" on him, then I would be very concerned.

It isn't the cheating. It's the trust, people. A straightforward conversation might not illuminate the truth of what he's doing, but it will absolutely illuminate the truth of the relationship itself. If you say "I'm afraid of what I'm seeing and I don't know what to do" and your partner dismisses you, it doesn't matter whether he's cheating.

novella1186 · February 2015

luckya23 said:

novella1186 said:

ShesSoCold said:

ohannabelle said:

SJM7538 said:

I'm about to just lose it. I made a post a few days ago about changing my mind on kids and within that post I mentioned H and I have had a really rocky year but things were getting better. or so I thought... you guys I think he has a profile on Ashley Madison. I'm not 100 percent sure but there are things that I feel like are way to coincidental. when I was at work on Thursday he made a phone call to some random toll free number. I just got this weird feeling so I googled it... Customer service for Ashley Madison. so thinking maybe it was a wrong number and he called back (that happens right ?) checked his phone and nope he called it. 4 minute phone call. so I searched the site and found a user that lives in our town, has the same age height and wieght as H and his birthday is part of the username. Idk what to do. I mean obviously I think this is him. but I am not 100 percent sure. do I admit I looked at his cell phone bill and found this info without knowing 100 percent sure. I am wreck. I'm going to just try to nap now I think. and if that doesn't work... drink .

I'd catfish him, or get a close friend to do it. See if that Ashley Madison profile guy sends a picture or sets up a meeting.

If he's a liar or cheater, there's absolutely no point in asking him, because liars will simply lie their way out of it, and you still don't know, and now you've tipped them off so they can be even sneakier.
Catfish him. Not from your own phone or IP address.

If you're wrong, you can get busy working on your trust issues.

I don't know if this is what a therapist would say is the right thing to do, but this is what I would do too. If this is him, he'd likely lie to get out of it. If he goes to meet up with some chick and it turns out to be you in the hotel room, you have proof. This entire situation NEEDS to be addressed, whether he's cheating or not.

Regardless, I'm so sorry you're going through this and I'm sending hugs.

Even then, it's not proof. I've known guys like this, and they'll lie as much as they need to to avoid taking any accountability. I'd almost bet he would say he KNEW it was his wife talking to him online all along, so that's why he met up with her.

The further you go for "proof," the more you've violated their trust and privacy, so now you're committing the same wrong that you're angry at them for. It's best (I think) to just be straight-forward, cut the bullshit, and have a very honest conversation.

I strongly disagree with this! And how is it not victim blaming?

I'm sorry did you seriously just throw out victim blaming? Really?

luckya23 · February 2015

Yes, saying someone who discovers evidence of cheating and then wants to find out more is on the same level as a cheater? Umm, no.

I would not be happy about my SO going through my phone, but at the same time, I'm accountable for what I do, whether I shared it with him or not.

ETA: I found an ex's emails to another girl... Guess who then changed their password after they were confronted. I didn't NEED more evidence, but I wasn't wrong for coming across the emails in the first place. I didn't expect him to do it in the first place, so obviously I didn't expect him to volunteer the information.

novella1186 · February 2015

luckya23 said:

Yes, saying someone who discovers evidence of cheating and then wants to find out more is on the same level as a cheater? Umm, no.
I would not be happy about my SO going through my phone, but at the same time, I'm accountable for what I do, whether I shared it with him or not.

I did not say it's the same as cheating, did I? I said violating trust is violating trust. If she violates his trust then she violated his trust, so she did a thing that he did, which was violate her trust.

And even by your poor interpretation, that's STILL not victim blaming. Not in any way. Not at all. So you can drop that bullshit right now.

theartistformerlyknownas · February 2015

themosthappy91 said:
The thing is, it seems like she HAS tried to talk to him about it. She specifically says she's tried to talk to him about it and he just shuts down. It's all well and good to say "you need to talk this out" or "you should look into couple's counseling" but that doesn't really apply when he's clearly unwilling to participate.

She's said that if he's cheating she's done with this relationship, so I would snoop in her shoes because I don't think she's likely to get a satisfying answer she can base her decision on if she doesn't. Catfish him, look through his phone, whatever- the point is you need to know the truth and I doubt you're going to get it if you sit down to talk to him without any evidence to force it out of him. He's just going to brush you off like he has before.

I just think maybe other people on here recommending talking to him straightaway and "getting it all out on the table" don't realize how unrealistic that is if someone is a cheater and a liar. He will deny deny deny, and then delete all the evidence. And in the (extremely unlikely, in my opinion) event that he really isn't hiding anything? He needs to understand that his behavior and unwillingness to talk has in part driven you to this point and take responsibility for that be agreeing to see a counselor to work on your issues.

My feeling is if you approach your spouse - the person you're supposed to have the most open, honest relationship with - about very real concerns of mistrust, and he shuts down, dismisses your feelings, calls you crazy, throws other accusations in your face, etc... that's all the proof I would need that the relationship is toast. Even if he isn't cheating, he also isn't holding up his end of this marriage and I'd be calling the nearest Holiday Inn.

FiancB · February 2015

I just can't think of a possible explanation for this, except maybe the disputed charges one, in which case I would think he'd tell you about it. If it was something in his browser history I could see more possibly of someone else borrowing his stuff or something, but I think a 4 minute phone call is pretty incriminating.

I'm sorry. Even all this aside, it sounds like things are not going well for the two of you.

KatieinBkln · February 2015

luckya23 said:

Yes, saying someone who discovers evidence of cheating and then wants to find out more is on the same level as a cheater? Umm, no.
I would not be happy about my SO going through my phone, but at the same time, I'm accountable for what I do, whether I shared it with him or not.

ETA: I found an ex's emails to another girl... Guess who then changed their password after they were confronted. I didn't NEED more evidence, but I wasn't wrong for coming across the emails in the first place. I didn't expect him to do it in the first place, so obviously I didn't expect him to volunteer the information.

I think the point is that "coming across" emails is one thing. But then orchestrating an elaborate scheme to uncover what's really going on? That's dishonest. I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as cheating is (and I did not get the sense that Novella said that, either), but it's still the kind of behavior that illuminates just how far gone both parties are from the kind of implicit trust that characterizes a healthy relationship.

If you feel like it's time to catfish, then the relationship is already over, in my opinion.

luckya23 · February 2015

KatieinBkln said:

luckya23 said:

Yes, saying someone who discovers evidence of cheating and then wants to find out more is on the same level as a cheater? Umm, no.
I would not be happy about my SO going through my phone, but at the same time, I'm accountable for what I do, whether I shared it with him or not.

ETA: I found an ex's emails to another girl... Guess who then changed their password after they were confronted. I didn't NEED more evidence, but I wasn't wrong for coming across the emails in the first place. I didn't expect him to do it in the first place, so obviously I didn't expect him to volunteer the information.

I think the point is that "coming across" emails is one thing. But then orchestrating an elaborate scheme to uncover what's really going on? That's dishonest. I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as cheating is (and I did not get the sense that Novella said that, either), but it's still the kind of behavior that illuminates just how far gone both parties are from the kind of implicit trust that characterizes a healthy relationship.

If you feel like it's time to catfish, then the relationship is already over, in my opinion.

I would be done before I put the effort into catfishing too, personally, but I don't think jumping on alerting a possible offender is necessarily the best course of action either. I don't think checking someone's phone is violating their trust, unless you for some reason have an agreement that these things (on a shared bill?) are off limits. It is showing that you have doubts, in this situation, which seems totally reasonable to me.

tpwkalyn · February 2015

Hi, first off I am SO sorry you're having to go through this & I am sending lots of virtual *hugs*.

This is coming from someone who "snooped".

About 6 months before FI & I got engaged, I had noticed he'd been really weird about where & if he left his phone lying around. I didn't think it was carnal "cheating", but I did suspect he'd been looking at porn (we had many many discussions on this topic, and he had promised me that he hadn't looked at porn since we'd been together, and at this time, we'd been together for a little over a year & a half). I worried because his two brothers both had very very bad addiction problems. I know it's not technically 100% genetic, but if you've lived around someone like that for so long, it kinda gets hard-wired in your brain.

His phone was practically glued to his hands & he never left it unattended. One day, I asked him if I could borrow his phone to look something up (I think we were at the movies & I didn't have my phone with me), and he did (surprise!) and I noticed that his entire browser history had been erased.

This really raised some questions, but I didn't really know how to bring it up. So, as we were driving home I asked him to be honest with me, and then proceeded to ask him if he had been looking at porn throughout any time in our relationship. He said no (lie), so I trusted him & let it go because I could tell he was getting frustrated with me accusing him of such a thing.

About a week later, FI (then boyfriend) left his phone unattended with me in the room, and I (embarrassingly & admittedly) snooped. Guess what. I found porn. It fucking hurt so bad. Snooping sucks, BUT I called him out on it, and at first he tried to deny it, but I had straight up cold, hard, evidence in my hands that he couldn't wiggle his way out of. He eventually totally confessed that he had a real problem & had been lying to me for our entire relationship.

I was totally broken, but we then agreed to handle this with an internet accountability program, and some help from our church leaders/professionals. I hate that I snooped, but I'm glad I found out about his problem before we got married. Snooping didn't technically "fix" or "save" our relationship, but I'm guessing that if I hadn't have snooped, it would still be going on today & I'd have no idea.

FI ended up not even mentioning the fact that I "snooped" because he knew he was completely in the wrong.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, if he won't talk to you after you've asked him plenty of times with plenty of reason, snoop. If you find something, bring it up to him. If you don't find anything, don't bring it up. Simple. You have some sort of evidence to use, and a perfectly good reason WHY you have that evidence.

Once again *HUGS* to you.

Edited: words are hard

hellosweetie1015 · February 2015

luckya23 said:

novella1186 said:

ShesSoCold said:

ohannabelle said:

SJM7538 said:

I'm about to just lose it. I made a post a few days ago about changing my mind on kids and within that post I mentioned H and I have had a really rocky year but things were getting better. or so I thought... you guys I think he has a profile on Ashley Madison. I'm not 100 percent sure but there are things that I feel like are way to coincidental. when I was at work on Thursday he made a phone call to some random toll free number. I just got this weird feeling so I googled it... Customer service for Ashley Madison. so thinking maybe it was a wrong number and he called back (that happens right ?) checked his phone and nope he called it. 4 minute phone call. so I searched the site and found a user that lives in our town, has the same age height and wieght as H and his birthday is part of the username. Idk what to do. I mean obviously I think this is him. but I am not 100 percent sure. do I admit I looked at his cell phone bill and found this info without knowing 100 percent sure. I am wreck. I'm going to just try to nap now I think. and if that doesn't work... drink .

I'd catfish him, or get a close friend to do it. See if that Ashley Madison profile guy sends a picture or sets up a meeting.

If he's a liar or cheater, there's absolutely no point in asking him, because liars will simply lie their way out of it, and you still don't know, and now you've tipped them off so they can be even sneakier.
Catfish him. Not from your own phone or IP address.

If you're wrong, you can get busy working on your trust issues.

I don't know if this is what a therapist would say is the right thing to do, but this is what I would do too. If this is him, he'd likely lie to get out of it. If he goes to meet up with some chick and it turns out to be you in the hotel room, you have proof. This entire situation NEEDS to be addressed, whether he's cheating or not.

Regardless, I'm so sorry you're going through this and I'm sending hugs.

Even then, it's not proof. I've known guys like this, and they'll lie as much as they need to to avoid taking any accountability. I'd almost bet he would say he KNEW it was his wife talking to him online all along, so that's why he met up with her.

The further you go for "proof," the more you've violated their trust and privacy, so now you're committing the same wrong that you're angry at them for. It's best (I think) to just be straight-forward, cut the bullshit, and have a very honest conversation.

I strongly disagree with this! And how is it not victim blaming?

I'm curious how it is. I don't see any victim blaming here.

Nowhere has anyone said it's her fault her H is/may/could be doing what he's doing. Her actions prior to, including, and, at least to this point, after looking into the issue with the phone bill have fuck all to do with her husband doing what he's doing. However, once she crosses the line from happening upon the information, into actively fishing for information, that becomes the problem. Just like if FI found an incriminating text on my phone while looking for something completely unrelated, versus him picking up my phone when I wasn't paying attention and thumbing through it actively hunting something incriminating.

(ETA: There isn't anything incriminating on my phone! I promise!)

Obviously violating a spouse's trust via going through their phone is a lot different than violating their trust by CHEATING on them. However, I think it's best to not violate, if possible, just on the extremely off chance that it's a coincidence or a misunderstanding or something. Say something, certainly, tell him how YOU are feeling - one time when it's good to use a lot of pronouns like "I"s and "my"s and "me"s as opposed to "you"s and "your"s. If he's not willing to try counseling to help you both move forward out of your rough patch, or if he isn't even receptive to trying to work for your relationship, I think you know where you need to go from here.

ETA x2 and if you do get some level of proof that he's cheating, or if you feel you can't return to where you were with him before, I don't think it's fair to either of you to keep on with it. You'll both be miserable if you do that.

Again, all of the hugs to you.

KatieinBkln · February 2015

luckya23 said:

KatieinBkln said:

luckya23 said:

Yes, saying someone who discovers evidence of cheating and then wants to find out more is on the same level as a cheater? Umm, no.
I would not be happy about my SO going through my phone, but at the same time, I'm accountable for what I do, whether I shared it with him or not.

ETA: I found an ex's emails to another girl... Guess who then changed their password after they were confronted. I didn't NEED more evidence, but I wasn't wrong for coming across the emails in the first place. I didn't expect him to do it in the first place, so obviously I didn't expect him to volunteer the information.

I think the point is that "coming across" emails is one thing. But then orchestrating an elaborate scheme to uncover what's really going on? That's dishonest. I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as cheating is (and I did not get the sense that Novella said that, either), but it's still the kind of behavior that illuminates just how far gone both parties are from the kind of implicit trust that characterizes a healthy relationship.

If you feel like it's time to catfish, then the relationship is already over, in my opinion.

I would be done before I put the effort into catfishing too, personally, but I don't think jumping on alerting a possible offender is necessarily the best course of action either. I don't think checking someone's phone is violating their trust, unless you for some reason have an agreement that these things (on a shared bill?) are off limits. It is showing that you have doubts, in this situation, which seems totally reasonable to me.

I mean, I think this is interesting, philosophically. For me, it ultimately comes down to the "checker's" motives. Would I peruse FI's phone looking for a photo or use it to look something up or open Google maps? Yep. If I saw something suspect while I was in there, I would definitely look a little closer.

But checking his phone for bad news as a matter of course? Nope. I think that crosses a line that should be crossed with words, adult to adult.

In OP's case, I don't think she crossed a line at all by looking at the phone bill. She had a reason to look in the first place that had nothing to do with suspecting her H (they kept going over their data plan).

But now that she has uncovered something fucked up, I cannot see the harm in having a direct conversation about it. She doesn't need to jump to any conclusions or have a dramatic accusation-fest. But saying "I found this thing, can you explain it? It's scaring me and I need to know if I should be scared" opens the door. The "right" response from her H would be "Oh my god, this is a huge mistake, I am SO SORRY to make you feel this way, but X Y and Z happened and I wanted to get it taken care of right away, but now I see I should have told you about it ahead of time." Anything else, including some overly-slick explanation that doesn't include the "I'm so sorry I freaked you out" acknowledgment, is a bad answer, and one that provides enough information to act on.

themosthappy91 · February 2015

KatieinBkln said:

themosthappy91 said:

tcnoble said:

melbenso said:

photokitty said:

Do you have access to his phone? I would imagine he has the app on his phone if he has an account. I would want o find out as much as I could before I confronted him for fear of him wiping all the evidence and telling me I was paranoid.

I'm so sorry you are going through this.

Speaking as someone who once went through a SOs phone when I thought he was cheating on me. Don't do it. Invading his privacy and betraying his trust isn't right, even if he is betraying your trust in another way. It ruined my relationship. (He wasn't cheating, that I ever discovered, but the damage was done when I went through his stuff.) I know its hard not to skulk around and try and find evidence while being sneaky, but it really is better if you confront him. If you aren't comfortable doing it on your own, maybe go see a couples counselor? I'm sorry that you have to go through this.

This. The invasion of privacy on either end is just enough to make everything go haywire. Your trust in him was in jeopardy the second you felt you had to go looking around.. and his trust in you will be broken because you snooped and didn't talk to him about it.

What he has to say may not be what you want to hear, but it will (truthfully) feel SO much better once you get it all out there. It's better than walking on eggshells and wondering. Hugs to you!!!

The thing is, it seems like she HAS tried to talk to him about it. She specifically says she's tried to talk to him about it and he just shuts down. It's all well and good to say "you need to talk this out" or "you should look into couple's counseling" but that doesn't really apply when he's clearly unwilling to participate.

She's said that if he's cheating she's done with this relationship, so I would snoop in her shoes because I don't think she's likely to get a satisfying answer she can base her decision on if she doesn't. Catfish him, look through his phone, whatever- the point is you need to know the truth and I doubt you're going to get it if you sit down to talk to him without any evidence to force it out of him. He's just going to brush you off like he has before.

I just think maybe other people on here recommending talking to him straightaway and "getting it all out on the table" don't realize how unrealistic that is if someone is a cheater and a liar. He will deny deny deny, and then delete all the evidence. And in the (extremely unlikely, in my opinion) event that he really isn't hiding anything? He needs to understand that his behavior and unwillingness to talk has in part driven you to this point and take responsibility for that be agreeing to see a counselor to work on your issues.

But if you get that sense, then you've STILL found out what you need to find out. Like, are you (general now, not just OP) totally comfortable being with a person you can't fully trust? Sure, you didn't "definitively" find out if he was cheating, but you found out that he's being shady and callous of your feelings.

Straight up, if I found something weird on our bill and confronted FI about it, he'd probably go, "Wait, what?" look at the bill, then laugh and tell me the weird story. If he started getting mad that I dared look at the phone bill and "snoop" on him, then I would be very concerned.

It isn't the cheating. It's the trust, people. A straightforward conversation might not illuminate the truth of what he's doing, but it will absolutely illuminate the truth of the relationship itself. If you say "I'm afraid of what I'm seeing and I don't know what to do" and your partner dismisses you, it doesn't matter whether he's cheating.

I think that's a really good point and rationally makes complete sense. But I also think it's a lot harder in practice to get up the nerve to end a relationship based on a "sense" that's something is shady but you don't quite know how bad it is, versus having proof in hand. A good liar is going to be able to plant that seed of doubt that it's all in your head that will make it hard to pull the trigger, and since she has stated this is the end of the relationship if he's cheating I think it's worth it to try to get to the bottom of it.

luckya23 · February 2015

I think once the seed of doubt has been planted, by the weird phone number, and the corroborating evidence she has found (and the previous problems), that she is not violating his trust at all by following up on it and not asking a potential liar to magically come clean, and then delete any evidence she could have found.

As soon as you say something, you only have their word to go on, because they're going to learn real quick to cover their tracks better.

I don't even think catfishing him is violating his trust, because if he wasn't looking, he wouldn't be able to be catfished, right?

Whatever OP decides to do with this information, I don't think it's fair to fault her whatsoever, and it's also not stooping to his level or anything. So that's why I say don't blame the OP for whatever she feels she has to do to have peace. But like I said in a PP, I don't think looking through someone's phone is violating their trust unless they've given you a reason to think so.

Checking someone's phone or email or credit card bill is not "committing the same wrong" as cheating. I think it's a little silly to go so far as to catfish someone, but it's still not nearly the same, IMO.

Dreamergirl8812 · February 2015

OP, you need to find out the truth. However, please don't catfish him. What if the profile you found isn't him? That means you went and met up with someone else's husband. Regardless of your intentions or motive, that is fucked up.

luckya23 · February 2015

KatieinBkln said:

luckya23 said:

KatieinBkln said:

luckya23 said:

Yes, saying someone who discovers evidence of cheating and then wants to find out more is on the same level as a cheater? Umm, no.
I would not be happy about my SO going through my phone, but at the same time, I'm accountable for what I do, whether I shared it with him or not.

ETA: I found an ex's emails to another girl... Guess who then changed their password after they were confronted. I didn't NEED more evidence, but I wasn't wrong for coming across the emails in the first place. I didn't expect him to do it in the first place, so obviously I didn't expect him to volunteer the information.

I think the point is that "coming across" emails is one thing. But then orchestrating an elaborate scheme to uncover what's really going on? That's dishonest. I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as cheating is (and I did not get the sense that Novella said that, either), but it's still the kind of behavior that illuminates just how far gone both parties are from the kind of implicit trust that characterizes a healthy relationship.

If you feel like it's time to catfish, then the relationship is already over, in my opinion.

I would be done before I put the effort into catfishing too, personally, but I don't think jumping on alerting a possible offender is necessarily the best course of action either. I don't think checking someone's phone is violating their trust, unless you for some reason have an agreement that these things (on a shared bill?) are off limits. It is showing that you have doubts, in this situation, which seems totally reasonable to me.

I mean, I think this is interesting, philosophically. For me, it ultimately comes down to the "checker's" motives. Would I peruse FI's phone looking for a photo or use it to look something up or open Google maps? Yep. If I saw something suspect while I was in there, I would definitely look a little closer.

But checking his phone for bad news as a matter of course? Nope. I think that crosses a line that should be crossed with words, adult to adult.

In OP's case, I don't think she crossed a line at all by looking at the phone bill. She had a reason to look in the first place that had nothing to do with suspecting her H (they kept going over their data plan).

But now that she has uncovered something fucked up, I cannot see the harm in having a direct conversation about it. She doesn't need to jump to any conclusions or have a dramatic accusation-fest. But saying "I found this thing, can you explain it? It's scaring me and I need to know if I should be scared" opens the door. The "right" response from her H would be "Oh my god, this is a huge mistake, I am SO SORRY to make you feel this way, but X Y and Z happened and I wanted to get it taken care of right away, but now I see I should have told you about it ahead of time." Anything else, including some overly-slick explanation that doesn't include the "I'm so sorry I freaked you out" acknowledgment, is a bad answer, and one that provides enough information to act on.

I do see your point too. I personally would have liked more closure than I got in my situation, with more evidence, rather than the lame excuses and changed passwords. Clearly I left him anyway, but it's still something I wonder about nearly a decade later.

themosthappy91 · February 2015

Dreamergirl8812 said:

OP, you need to find out the truth. However, please don't catfish him. What if the profile you found isn't him? That means you went and met up with someone else's husband. Regardless of your intentions or motive, that is fucked up.

I mean I am assuming if she met up with the guy and he turns out not to be her husband she would just say she made a mistake and leave... I don't really see how that's fucked up.

theartistformerlyknownas · February 2015

Dreamergirl8812 said:

OP, you need to find out the truth. However, please don't catfish him. What if the profile you found isn't him? That means you went and met up with someone else's husband. Regardless of your intentions or motive, that is fucked up.

Or you go to some sleazebag motel expecting your H to walk in, and instead you get some scary guy fully expecting you to put out. Um, giant no thank you, please.

I wouldn't let any "catfishing" go further than requesting a picture of him. But then you run the risk of him finding out that now you're on the site, and explaining that one away (especially if it turns out that it wasn't him). Still comes back to the lack of trust being the issue to solve.

photokitty · February 2015

themosthappy91 said:

tcnoble said:

melbenso said:

photokitty said:

Do you have access to his phone? I would imagine he has the app on his phone if he has an account. I would want o find out as much as I could before I confronted him for fear of him wiping all the evidence and telling me I was paranoid.

I'm so sorry you are going through this.

Speaking as someone who once went through a SOs phone when I thought he was cheating on me. Don't do it. Invading his privacy and betraying his trust isn't right, even if he is betraying your trust in another way. It ruined my relationship. (He wasn't cheating, that I ever discovered, but the damage was done when I went through his stuff.) I know its hard not to skulk around and try and find evidence while being sneaky, but it really is better if you confront him. If you aren't comfortable doing it on your own, maybe go see a couples counselor? I'm sorry that you have to go through this.

This. The invasion of privacy on either end is just enough to make everything go haywire. Your trust in him was in jeopardy the second you felt you had to go looking around.. and his trust in you will be broken because you snooped and didn't talk to him about it.

What he has to say may not be what you want to hear, but it will (truthfully) feel SO much better once you get it all out there. It's better than walking on eggshells and wondering. Hugs to you!!!

The thing is, it seems like she HAS tried to talk to him about it. She specifically says she's tried to talk to him about it and he just shuts down. It's all well and good to say "you need to talk this out" or "you should look into couple's counseling" but that doesn't really apply when he's clearly unwilling to participate.

She's said that if he's cheating she's done with this relationship, so I would snoop in her shoes because I don't think she's likely to get a satisfying answer she can base her decision on if she doesn't. Catfish him, look through his phone, whatever- the point is you need to know the truth and I doubt you're going to get it if you sit down to talk to him without any evidence to force it out of him. He's just going to brush you off like he has before.

I just think maybe other people on here recommending talking to him straightaway and "getting it all out on the table" don't realize how unrealistic that is if someone is a cheater and a liar. He will deny deny deny, and then delete all the evidence. And in the (extremely unlikely, in my opinion) event that he really isn't hiding anything? He needs to understand that his behavior and unwillingness to talk has in part driven you to this point and take responsibility for that be agreeing to see a counselor to work on your issues.

DH and I have an open phone policy. I feel like if your SO won't let you look at their phone they are hiding something. I have nothing to hide. If he won't let you look at his phone I personally consider that a red flag.

Seeing as how he feels about therapy and refused to go with you, even when he acknowledged there was an issue, I don't see how asking him directly is going to solve anything. Best case scenario, he tells you he is cheating. Otherwise you have to blindly trust him - can you ver do that?

Personally, I would buy some credits on Ashley Madison and see what the charges show up as - see if they match any of his.

I strongly suggest once again that you go talk to therapist or counselor. You need a support system. I would not go to family with this theory, you can't take back words or opinions, unless you decide to leave him.

luckya23 · February 2015

themosthappy91 said:

Dreamergirl8812 said:

OP, you need to find out the truth. However, please don't catfish him. What if the profile you found isn't him? That means you went and met up with someone else's husband. Regardless of your intentions or motive, that is fucked up.

I mean I am assuming if she met up with the guy and he turns out not to be her husband she would just say she made a mistake and leave... I don't really see how that's fucked up.

What if her pants fall off simultaneously?

themosthappy91 · February 2015

luckya23 said:

themosthappy91 said:

Dreamergirl8812 said:

OP, you need to find out the truth. However, please don't catfish him. What if the profile you found isn't him? That means you went and met up with someone else's husband. Regardless of your intentions or motive, that is fucked up.

I mean I am assuming if she met up with the guy and he turns out not to be her husband she would just say she made a mistake and leave... I don't really see how that's fucked up.

What if her pants fall off simultaneously?

I do want to add that for her safety I would definitely STRONGLY advise she have another person/other people present because it does seem dangerous to run the risk that another man might show up and get angry when she tried to back out. But still- it's not really "fucked up" of her to unknowingly meet up with someone else's husband in this scenario...

novella1186 · February 2015

luckya23 said:

I think once the seed of doubt has been planted, by the weird phone number, and the corroborating evidence she has found (and the previous problems), that she is not violating his trust at all by following up on it and not asking a potential liar to magically come clean, and then delete any evidence she could have found.
As soon as you say something, you only have their word to go on, because they're going to learn real quick to cover their tracks better.
I don't even think catfishing him is violating his trust, because if he wasn't looking, he wouldn't be able to be catfished, right?
Whatever OP decides to do with this information, I don't think it's fair to fault her whatsoever, and it's also not stooping to his level or anything. So that's why I say don't blame the OP for whatever she feels she has to do to have peace. But like I said in a PP, I don't think looking through someone's phone is violating their trust unless they've given you a reason to think so.
Checking someone's phone or email or credit card bill is not "committing the same wrong" as cheating. I think it's a little silly to go so far as to catfish someone, but it's still not nearly the same, IMO.

Going through someone's phone/computer/whatever behind their back for the SOLE PURPOSE of trying to gather "evidence" against them is a violation of trust. FI grabs my phone sometimes to look stuff up, and I couldn't care less. But if I caught him reading through every text message I had just to check on me, I'd be pissed.

The thing is, she already found something (the weird phone call) and she already found corroborating evidence (the profile on the site that seems to be her husband). How much further do you think she should go? What else could she plausibly find without going so far as catfishing? What more does she need? When is the amount of evidence going to be enough? And even if she finds something more, her husband could lie about that just as easily as he could lie about the stuff she has already found. As I said in an earlier post, even if she does catfish him and catch him red-handed, he could STILL try to lie his way out of it by saying he knew it was her all along so he went with it.

And. Again. I did not fault the OP for anything she has done. And I did not blame her-- in any way-- for the situation she is in. What good would it do her to intentionally violate his trust, given what I said above? It would just give him some fuel to place blame back on her. By looking at their phone bill she did NOT violate anything, but if she takes it a lot farther, then I think she's crossing a line that shows that there is obviously some severe problems in the relationship because she chose to be sneaky rather than go to him with the evidence she already has on hand. As PPs said, his reaction to that will speak volumes, and will tell her exactly where their relationship is at.

photokitty · February 2015

The more I think about it, I don't see how anyone could accidentally call Ashley Madison. If their billing is discreet and anonymous, then it can't even be bc he saw a charge on his credit card for it and went "WTF??" and called to have it taken care of. Not to mention, most people would call their credit card directly bc they didn't authorize the charges.

Even if it was a correct a situation that was by no fault not his, why would he not have told you? "Honey, you won't believe what happened...I got an email asking me to activate my Ashley Madison account. WTF? So messed up, I called them and told them to delete my email! Can you imagine??" I would sure as hell have brought something as absurd as needing to call a company whose motto is "life is short, have an affair" to my spouse's attention.

I think you need to stop, talk to someone (counselor/therapist) and think about how you want to proceed. Can you ever trust him again? What needs to happen for you to trust him - open phone policy? Open social media? Couples counseling? Can you come back from this? You need to know what you need from him to move forward int he marriage. Will him denying the accusations be enough?

I find Ashley Madison to be the most despicable of companies. Knowingly helping and encouraging cheaters, devising ways to hide it from your spouse and profiting off of it - sounds a damn lot like a prostitution ring to me.

Again, I'm so sorry!

climbingsingle · February 2015

OP I'm sorry you're going through this. I wish I had some great advice. But I really don't know what I would do in this situation. Have you ever in the past felt that he was lying to you or that you couldn't trust him?

jdluvr06 · February 2015

Op I'm really sorry you're going through this. (((Hugs))). I don't think you should "catfish" him but at the same time I can't see how trying to talk to him would be beneficial since he just shuts down any attempts anyway. So I got nothing.

ETA: I lied. I do have some advice. Based on your previous post about your H's behaviour I really think, for me anyway, it would ultimatum time. Tell him that either he agrees to counselling, to be completely honest about everything, and to try to work through it or your done. Of course you can't do this unless you mean it through. Usually I wouldn't recommend something like that but sometimes people really need a kick in the ass to realize what the consquences of their behaviours are.

SJM7538 · February 2015

thank you everyone for all of the sound advice! I really don't want to catfish him. I just don't have the patience or emotional capacity for that. but I also don't want to be lied to. I haven't talked to H yet but I plan to at some point tonight. I'm just still processing everything. I keep thinking the phone call could be some kind of mistake but the profile... so much of the info matches up to a description of him and this is the part that is tearing me apart and makes me think I wouldn't believe him if he told me I made a mistake.

climbingsingle · February 2015

Well, I think his reaction when you confront him will be very telling. Please keep us posted.

FiancB · February 2015

Oh crap I missed the part about the profile. Jeez. Well... good luck, and definitely take what he says with a big pile of salt : / I wish I could say something more comforting than that but that does sound bad.

esstee33 · February 2015

SJM7538 said:

thank you everyone for all of the sound advice! I really don't want to catfish him. I just don't have the patience or emotional capacity for that. but I also don't want to be lied to. I haven't talked to H yet but I plan to at some point tonight. I'm just still processing everything. I keep thinking the phone call could be some kind of mistake but the profile... so much of the info matches up to a description of him and this is the part that is tearing me apart and makes me think I wouldn't believe him if he told me I made a mistake.

The bolded is very concerning, even if he's not cheating.

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

hellosweetie1015 · February 2015

jdluvr06 said:

Op I'm really sorry you're going through this. (((Hugs))). I don't think you should "catfish" him but at the same time I can't see how trying to talk to him would be beneficial since he just shuts down any attempts anyway. So I got nothing.

ETA: I lied. I do have some advice. Based on your previous post about your H's behaviour I really think, for me anyway, it would ultimatum time. Tell him that either he agrees to counselling, to be completely honest about everything, and to try to work through it or your done. Of course you can't do this unless you mean it through. Usually I wouldn't recommend something like that but sometimes people really need a kick in the ass to realize what the consquences of their behaviours are.

I generally don't agree with ultimatums, but I do think that now - if you'll stick to it - would be a good time for it. Either he gets his shit straight in the relationship, or you get your shit straight out of it, you know?

Update the talk happened. I need some serious advice from strangers.

Re: Update the talk happened. I need some serious advice from strangers.

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