Pope's comments on marriage prep and declarations of nullity

GulfCoaster

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110122/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_marriage;_ylt=Ak5izDENrEAE4cr7J7iz0bNvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTJnM3FxaHVoBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMTIyL2V1X3ZhdGljYW5fbWFycmlhZ2UEcG9zAzcEc2VjA3luX21vc3RfcG9wdWxhcgRzbGsDcG9wZW1hcnJpYWdl

Thoughts?

[Deleted User]

I agree with him.

ootmother2

 there's not enough to agree or disagree on.  The article was very poorly placed and misinterpertations resulted

mica178

I agree with what the article says he said, mostly.  There's a thin line between trying to impress upon people the importance of marriage and alienating people from the church.

MeepWedding

Yahoo news has the magical ability to skew news stories.

However, I do find it really interesting that this is on the table between the Pope and the annulment tribunal posse. I mean, I'm not done RCIA yet and not officially Catholic yet, so I hate to judge, but it does seem dicey that getting an Annulment isn't that big of a deal. Depending on who you talk to, of course.

I do hope this doesn't mean that pre-cana gets an addition of something pointless and filler. If they do add or extend it, I hope it is meaningful and not just adding something to say that a band aid like an extra hour of counseling fixes everything and will decrease Annulments.

GulfCoaster

<p>In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_popes-comments-marriage-prep?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:9d3c67f2-2ed3-41b2-9b73-b681e3687660Post:c50eb5b7-5802-44a6-bff2-a92b7c38c05d">Re: Pope's comments on marriage prep and declarations of nullity</a>:
[QUOTE]Yahoo news has the magical ability to skew news stories. Posted by MeepWedding[/QUOTE]

Well, this was the AP version of the story, not Yahoo's version in particular.  I do agree with you that the AP often doesn't do a great job with religious stories, but this was the only version that I could find when I posted the link originally.  Even today, almost everything I can find is simply a reprint of the AP article.  There's also a short AFP story out there, but that has even fewer details.  The AFP one did select a different quote, though:  "The Pope stressed his wish to break "the vicious circle between quasi-automatic admission to marriage, without adequate preparation and serious examination ... and equally easy judicial declarations" which end marriages just because there is a problem between the couple."  <a href="http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/pope-takes-aim-at-divorcees/story-fn6s850w-1225993039086">http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/pope-takes-aim-at-divorcees/story-fn6s850w-1225993039086</a>

Your point about adding just another hour of something meaningless and filler is a good one.  When we went through Pre-Cana several years ago, it was basically a joke.  We had a 6-hour session one Sunday, and only 4 hours of that was actual sessions related to marriage.  The sessions were generally just vague pablum, admonitions to "talk about things" and stuff like that.  It was not helpful at all and did not offer any concrete skills or deepen anyone's understanding of the sacrament they were about to enter.  I actually wrote a very nice letter to the bishop of the diocese later re: our experience, though I never did get a response.

So, more of that level of "preparation" really isn't going to help anyone, you're right.  The unfortunate thing is that most couples don't get much preparation beyond that... and many of us come from families that don't have great examples of marriage (and the secular world today is less than supportive of sacramental marriage), so we might need some good preparation.  I guess the question is, like Mica said, where is that line between trying to prepare people appropriately for marriage and impress upon them its importance, or discouraging them?</p>

mica178

I agree that more intensive marriage prep is probably a good thing for most people.  And I agree that adding on an hour or two isn't going to achieve much, good marriage prep requires the couple to spend their time really thinking about and discussing pertinent issues that could impact the quality of their marriage.  I think that one on one time with a priest would do more than an extra hour of group stuff, but that requires a really open-minded priest.

I'm not sure how "easy" it is to get an annulment.  Some of the people of this board describe nullification taking over a year.  One of our EE leaders went through a marriage nullification that took nearly two, and he suffered severe depression going through it because it was rather grueling.  I think it should be grueling to some extent because if that individual intends to marry again (and have a successful second marriage), he/she should hopefully have learned what went wrong in the first marriage.  But I also worry about people deciding to leave the church because they cannot remarry.  If we believe that God has infinite grace, then we should also believe that we humans should be willing to forgive others.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_popes-comments-marriage-prep?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:9d3c67f2-2ed3-41b2-9b73-b681e3687660Post:967db0ed-29eb-4022-8664-147f156ecccd">Re: Pope's comments on marriage prep and declarations of nullity</a>:
[QUOTE]I  But I also worry about people deciding to leave the church because they cannot remarry.  If we believe that God has infinite grace, then we should also believe that we humans should be willing to forgive others.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

Mica, I'm not sure what you mean by this...

If you mean the church should "forgive" first marriages and let people get married a 2nd time anyway, because they might leave the church, well, I completely disagree with that.

It's a person's choice to leave the church, and it might well be over the fact that the church believes, as Christ does, that there is only one marriage until death. The church holds marriage very highly, and doesn't compromise it...why should somoene not have to honor their promises they made before God (if they are indeed valid)?

MeepWedding

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_popes-comments-marriage-prep?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:9d3c67f2-2ed3-41b2-9b73-b681e3687660Post:fad02a2d-6e55-4e92-900f-965df9e567cd">Re: Pope's comments on marriage prep and declarations of nullity</a>:
[QUOTE]Your point about adding just another hour of something meaningless and filler is a good one.  When we went through Pre-Cana several years ago, it was basically a joke.  We had a 6-hour session one Sunday, and only 4 hours of that was actual sessions related to marriage.  The sessions were generally just vague pablum, admonitions to "talk about things" and stuff like that.  It was not helpful at all and did not offer any concrete skills or deepen anyone's understanding of the sacrament they were about to enter.  I actually wrote a very nice letter to the bishop of the diocese later re: our experience, though I never did get a response.
Posted by GulfCoaster[/QUOTE]

<div>This just makes me think about what I can do to get more out of the pre-cana process.</div><div>
</div><div>Does anyone know of any good Catholic reading suggestions or book lists?</div><div>Thanks!!</div><div>
</div><div>(edit) Regarding marriage, I mean.</div>

agapecarrie

Yup

Christopher West
"Theology of the Body for Beginners"
"Good news about sex and marriage"

Christopher also has a specific marriage prep dvd/workbook series..available at Ascension press. If its not affordable for you, see if a parish in your diocese has it, or the diocese office itself.

Fulton Sheen
"Three to get married"

Also, see if you can both take the myerrs briggs temperament, and read up on the differences in communication. Marriage prep people here think it is one of the most useful things.

If the priest has you go on an engaged encounter, also ask about a mentor couple. There is nothing to say you can't do both.. you can meet with the couple as much as time allows, you don't have to stop even after marriage.

MeepWedding

Agape, thank you so much for your reading recs.

There is actually a couple that would possibly be a decent mentor couple, but I work with the husband. Not sure if it would be awk because of that. I don't know. FH is finicky about who we talk religion with, even when we're in RCIA class together, he likes to hold cards close.

The couple I mentioned said that Engaged Encounter was really bad in our parish, so I'm inclined to skip that and just do Pre-Cana. I'm still not sure. I need to do more research on it all.

Calypso1977

i think this further drives home my point that i mention frequently that lay persons should NOT be providing marriage prep to couples.  if the sacrament and religious component is to be stressed and given importance, couples should be receiving instruction and guidance from the priest or other clergy.  not from persons who are divorced, on multiple marriages, or who openly practice and condone IVF and/or support abortion. 

too many couples are being misled, to their detriment, during the marriage prep/pre-cana process.

Calypso1977

i think this further drives home my point that i mention frequently that lay persons should NOT be providing marriage prep to couples.  if the sacrament and religious component is to be stressed and given importance, couples should be receiving instruction and guidance from the priest or other clergy.  not from persons who are divorced, on multiple marriages, or who openly practice and condone IVF and/or support abortion. 

too many couples are being misled, to their detriment, during the marriage prep/pre-cana process.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_popes-comments-marriage-prep?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:9d3c67f2-2ed3-41b2-9b73-b681e3687660Post:6dca144f-f955-4636-a856-9aa6a13b7246">Re: Pope's comments on marriage prep and declarations of nullity</a>:
[QUOTE]i think this further drives home my point that i mention frequently that lay persons should NOT be providing marriage prep to couples.  if the sacrament and religious component is to be stressed and given importance, couples should be receiving instruction and guidance from the priest or other clergy.  not from persons who are divorced, on multiple marriages, or who openly practice and condone IVF and/or support abortion.  too many couples are being misled, to their detriment, during the marriage prep/pre-cana process.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]


While I agree that many marriage prep programs leave a lot lacking, I don't agree that its because lay people are doing the preparation, per se. They get the authority to do so from the priests. I know many priests who are liberal and others that don't put as much emphasis on good preparation as the lay people that do it. I'm one of the lay people that helps with marriage prep and teaching TOB.

Instead, what is needed is good training, good evaluating of the leadership, and priests faithful to the magisterium.

bibliophile2010

I know many lay people who are as well-educated in theology as many priests. I don't think the mere fact that they are lay people is what makes or breaks marriage preparation. I also think married couples can provide a lot of insight into marriage (and the struggles that can come in it as well) that a priest has not experienced first-hand.

Instead, I agree with Agape that care needs to be made to ensure that the teachings and insights that are provided to and by whomever is supervising Marriage Prep is aligned with Church teachings. FWIW, the sum total of my marriage prep has featured 7 lay couples, a lay minister with a Masters in Theology, and 2 priests (one spoke and heard confessions at one of our classes; one is the friend who is marrying us and talks Marriage Prep sometimes when we see him). Not one of them has said something that is contrary to the Church's teaching, unless it was to point out how wrong they were early in their marriage and how living Church teaching has strengthened their marriage.