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Second Weddings
M&Mf4me
member
Waiting for Marriage???
Okay, I know this is probably not very common now a days but my fiancee and I are waiting til the wedding night for making love. When it is a second marriage that seems a little odd to most people. It is due to religious belief and that this is a very special gift to each other.
Just wondering if we are the only ones still out there?
BTW we still CAN'T set a wedding date because we are waiting for a Catholic Annulment, which is adding to the frustration.
Shell
Just wondering if we are the only ones still out there?
BTW we still CAN'T set a wedding date because we are waiting for a Catholic Annulment, which is adding to the frustration.
Shell
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Waiting for Marriage???
However, my fiance & I have not waited.
Shell,
You are not the only ones. I have wondered the same thing. It's nice to know there are others who feel the same way and have made the same choice. It's been a challenge, but with our wedding date in sight (33 days to go!), I'm so glad we've waited. I know it will be more than worth it!
Yes, to whomever asked we will be married by a priest.
I understand your belief that waiting is not a good idea, and that has crossed my mind, but here is the rub I've decided I am NOT getting married for the sex! I am getting married to my best friend. Do I know if he "fits" or moves just so, well no I won't, HOWEVER I do know there is chemistry, TRUST ME on this one! It has been VERY difficult to wait. In fact I wouldn't even get close to dating him until my annulment was thru, his was supposed to take 4 weeks due to a legality, and here we are 18 months later.
Right now chastity is no problem as he is deployed and I won't see him until a LONG time (for OPSEC reasons I will not post more).
Handfast, I've always felt you were a great resource. I'd be hoping that you would give me a touch of respect!
Thanks all,
Shell
Shell.
FI and I have had our share of physical tension as we're getting closer and I know that we share the same views on sex and what a functioning sexual relationship is. Do I get dangerously close to ripping his clothes off? Sometimes
I'm just saying...waiting doesn't mean you're going to end up with sex problems that can never be fixed.
I do agree that needs to be discussed!
Shell
After 15 years of mediocre and bad sex with my ex, there was no way I was going to wait with my fiance...no way I was going to get stuck with a so-so to nonexistant sex life again. Glad I didn't...what we have going on more than makes up for all that.
However, to each his/her own, and I respect your decision. I'm not that strong, but at this point in my life I don't really want to be, either...lol.
I sincerely hope it pays off. Good luck.
RealWedding-
For someone like me, divorce was a last result and very painful. It's not what God intends for any marriage; however, He allows for it specifically in cases of adultery. God (and hopefully churches - Christian, Catholic, or otherwise) recognizes that people are not perfect and we make mistakes. He loves us anyway and extends us His grace. It's possible the OP found or renewed her faith after her divorce. Either way, it's very possible to believe that divorce is wrong and be divorced anyway.
So here's my viewpoint. I was Catholic- but since I have remarried, I no longer practice. Annulment was not a choice I made. I tend to take a more sociological view of religion. As such - for example: the Catholic rule against artificial birth control measures - came about because Catholics were a minority, and if Catholics were forbidden to restrict births, there'd be a bunch more Catholics to populate the world. So, again, in my opinion, the prohibition on sex stemmed from a desire to prevent humans from spreading disease and from having multitudes of children born into situations where society had no provision to support them. Therefore, having no risks from either of those two negative possibilities, I personally think the prohibition of sex outside of marriage is archaic, and I chose not to follow it. It seemed unnatural and unnecessarily frustrating. And just to further stir the pot-- the Catholic faith also opposes masturbation. So- are you seriously telling me that over these YEARS neither one of you has required or sought sexual release?? Again, to me-- I'd be very worried about a partner who professes to not need a sexua outlet for a period of years. On the other hand, if we were both going to be taking matters into our own hands- we are till breaking the rules, so we might as well develop that component of our relationship.
To the OP, I don't disrespect your decision, its just certainly not one I would make. Deployment makes the decision a whole bunch easier (although adds its own concerns). And not only do you not have a bio- but when I click on your name I get an error message. That looks fishy, but maybe just a glitch. ~Donna
Well, to all I will say I have had lots of problems with my profile over the last couple of months, and I've even tried to resolve them with an e-mail address at the knot, to no avail. I've recently tried to change it again. and I've been unable to I don't know how to fix it because as far as I know there is no "real person" to troubleshoot for me. IF any one has any suggestions I'd love them.
Onto the original reason for the post, Yes, I am Catholic, I actually came to my Faith 3 years after I was married. We had problems from 2 months in! And lots of them were sexual, if not most of them. I never left my Faith and had faced the fact that I may never be able to marry again if I could not get an Annulment. I was successful, as I thought I would be and received an annulment over 2 years ago. My X was totally unable to commit to the SACRAMENT of Marriage, AS WAS I. HUGE difference, from the civil marriage for 18 years. I left as a VERY last resort with 5 kids in tow. I left thinking I would NEVER remarry, only to find the gentleman I am dating at Church. We are waiting for his annulment.
I have never waivered in my Faith, I know it seems counter intuitive but my experience in my first marriage brought me to this decision. I have grown more ways, not just spiritually, through this amazing journey. I am educationally, and career wise in a TOTALLY different place. I have to say that the divorce and annulment opened my eyes to so much of the negatives AND positives in my Faith community AND the secular world which has challenged me to love without bounds.
I could not possibly explain this choice, I am not that good in writing toward theological or moral perspectives. My decision is based on John Paul II's Theology of the Body. If you were to google it I am sure you would get a few hits that would explain.
I do not judge anyone else, but I tread on such thin ice in the hopes that I would find a couple or two who shared our commitment to abstaining before marriage. I have never bashed anyone else's choices in this forum, and I am not threatened in concept or personally by any of your comments. I know from whence they come, because I lived that way until about 10 years ago. Most of my life was lived from a different perspective. Some people invert into their spirits to find the Truth, that is what I have done.
Blessings All,
Shell
I think you DID take a risk putting feelers out to see if anyone else shares your beliefs. Idon't, however, believe that by doing so on a national, public message board, it is legitimate to expect that such a controversial topic would not be debated. And from what you have written, you are aware that such a view would be controversial. I happen to enjoy debate and discussion. My disagreement is with the position, not the poster. I hope you are able to hear that.
In addition, I gave this topic more thought. My understanding is that the granting of an annulment is just an "official" decision that a marriage, which is a joining that can only be granted by God, never actually took place. It is NOT an un-doing of that joining. And it is not a human decision, but rather an interpretation of God's view, as you said, "the Truth" about the marriage. So then, my question is this- why wait for it?? If in fact, the marriage never existed, the couple were never actually joined, and only God has the authority/knowledge to recognize that -- what is the delay for? God has known it all along. In His eyes, you were having sex with someone who you were never actually married to to begin with. So....if you have in fact left that relationship,found the one true love with whom you can truly become one in marriage with--why wait for a bunch of men to read all the dirt and decide that yep, you in fact are free to marry? Men, even priests, are fallible. They could make the wrong decision. The partners and witnesses could lie, and give them misinformation, leading them to the incorrect answer. Only God knows and He has known all along. I know this is your belief system, and again, I am not bashing it, I just am not able to balance these two disparate concepts in my mind. ~Donna
I can tell you are not judging me, but you are judging my choices. I guess I was missunderstanding the general idea here. Does everyone have to understand the basic moral concepts of one's choices here? If you or anyone else does, that would mean that we are answerable for every decision. I did not ask in my OP for any discussion as to my choices validity I only asked if there were any others out there that were choosing the same thing. There are many posts that many people will not agree with but I don't post to every one. It seems to me that sex seems to be a hot button, and rightly so. That is because it strikes at the core of our spiritual beings, hence my respect for the conjugal act.
YES! Men who are priests are fallible, in fact I've known many priests which I do not agree with, not in their moral understandings, or in their application of our Faith. I also know a priest or two I would argue is not very virtuous. My Faith leads me to understanding all of our failings, and to be compassionate with them.
Your understanding is absolutely correct, the annulment is the statement that a marriage never existed. In the case of a court of law there is an assumption of innocence, and the same happens in the Eccleastical courts that state that the marriage is assumed valid until the court declares that it was not. Just as you and most people respect the court system in their authority, I respect the Church's Authority. Do I believe they, the church court or the judicial court are ever wrong in their judgement, ABSOLUTELY! However that is a basic fallibility by ANY man, and I believe there must be some authority in my Faith or there will be nothing but total disorder in the Faith economy. There seems to be a basic dichotomy to me, I must respect something. As to my country, see that my fiancee is deployed, as to my Church, I rely on their authority.
I can see that this is not your belief system, but it is mine.
I hope that I have clarified my motives, and understandings. If you would like to discuss it via private message feel free.
Shell
As to the scandals, I will send you a PM if you would like.
And here's the deal with judgement. You may feel that I am judging your decision. You get to feel whatever you like. But you are also in charge of making your own decisions. I have no stock in that decision, am not affected or impacted by your decision. I disagree with that decision- for me. In fact, I feel judged for disagreeing with you by your statements: I have never bashed anyone else's choices in this forum, and I am not threatened in concept or personally by any of your comments. I know from whence they come, because I lived that way until about 10 years ago. Most of my life was lived from a different perspective. Some people invert into their spirits to find the Truth, that is what I have done. However, in reading it carefully, I think you are merely defending your position. I respect that, and have to deal with my own feelings as anyone of us does. You disagree with the choices I have made (not seeking an annulment, choosing a sexual relationship prior to marrying) but Iexpect that you disagree with them for you. Only if you disagree with them for me do we have a problem.
I think that you and I also are diametrically opposed in our understanding of the workings of these boards. Having posted here for over 5 years, there has been plenty of debate & discussion on the boards- about topics wedding related, political, religious, sexual, etiquette and much more. That's why I still read/ post 4 years after I got married. There are plenty of posters who think like you do- that a post is under the control of the OP. That the OP gets to decide what is pertinent discussion and what is out of bounds. But the truth is, on any public message board, as people add to the conversations, the topic bobs and weaves. The most interesting posts have more than one or two replies. I pretty much skip the posts that are "validate me please" posts, there's nothing of interest there for anyone other than the OP.
I prefer public debate to PM. There are a multitude of interesting intelligent and "other thinking" women on this board. I'd rather shine the light of day on the debate and let anyone else chime in - if they care.
When I was actively Catholic, my priest (Fr. S) - who is an enigma in the Church, spoke about annulment. Part of his discussion was just what I wrote to you, that God is the decision maker, not man. He spoke to situations where it may be too dangerous, either physically, mentally or emotionally for a person to seek an annulment. His advice to that (hypothetical) person was that if they could face God & know that His decision would be to say the marriage was not sacramental and not valid- they should not endanger themselves, and should consider the marriage annulled- by the only true judge. And that they should freely enter into a true marriage (still needing a civil divorce, of course). He cautioned against using what he was saying as a get out of jail free card, of course.
He also brought a young Irish priest (Fr. P) to our parish, as part of Fr. P's healing, to describe the sexual abuse he had suffered as a young man at the hands of more than one priest. It was one of the most painful, and uplifting, sermons I have ever heard. To have an entire church leave their pews to hug this sobbing young man who was just learning that telling his "secret" would not make people hate him, but love and support him was an experience I will never forget. Fr. S also brought a alcoholic priest (Fr. R) to live in our parish (Fr. S. was a recovering alcoholic) so he would have constant support for his sobriety. You see Fr. R. was also a Marine chaplain, and the horrors of Iraq and Afghanistan had broken him. He later became the parish priest at the parish, when Fr. S was moved by the Bishop. Without Fr. S's support- unfortunately, Fr. R. jumped off the Newport bridge and died. So I have seen "scandal" and its victims up close. The Catholic church has no more propensity to scandal than any other other large organization. What it does have is a code of silence / cover up and denial that has perpetuated the victimization of the vulnerable. ~Donna
I just wanted to let you know that my FI and I are also waiting. This will be a second marriage for both of us. He is 47, I'm 46. Waiting is very difficult but I would have it no other way.
I can understand many of your points, and feel I don't have enough time to adequately address all of them.
You are correct that the "light of day" is a better place, I hadn't thought of it that way. It however brings further challenges to me, as I must be extremely careful in what I may say. Not everyone has the same open mindedness that you have displayed. Some who are more delicate in their understanding, and personal worth can take things out of perspective, so therefore I usually personally address each situation individually, tailoring my response to their individual style and concerns. I view the boards as a place to connect, I do not need a "yep, good decision" type of post back. In all honesty I was thrilled that anyone actually READ it, and that anyone agreed or had pursued the same course of action. I personally know of only one other couple who has.
As I said in a previous post I know from whence you came, as only recently have I grown "mature" in my self-esteem, and groundedness (see reasoning in previous paragraph for private discussion). To some degree you are right to read that I judge your decisions, as I do not believe they are "right" in the truth for anyone, see I don't believe in Relative Truth, I honestly believe that there is a right and a wrong. Do I judge the person, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!! I can tell you that because if I were to judge the value of the person I would judge my own worth as WORTHLESS as I lived in a "different value basis" and choice of mindset. Everyone's value is NOT in their choices, that is an extremely utilitarian view of a person's worth. I do not subscribe to that mindset. I have come to understand that a person's worth is in the basic preciousness that God gave each of us.
The reason that you and I have problems with the Church scandals is that value of the victim was placed on his ability to the offendor to use them. That is what makes it so amazingly offensive. I personally have lived being sexually used, that is exactly what made my first marriage so hurtful.
This is an exchange with a personal friend, I have edited it to some degree for public reading to take out personal names etc.
****************************************************
Good to hear from you. Hope you and your family are well besides the
sickness from Church scandals. I am always up for a pep talk, anytime.
You are not alone. We have had long conversations with friends, relatives, and some of our kids about this very subject.
Remember, first and foremost, that Jesus chose the weakest of
his disciples, Peter, to lead the other disciples, and to lead the
Church as it's first Pope. Peter, at the time when Jesus most needed
him, during the hours of his agony in the garden, fell asleep, and left
Jesus alone during the most trying time any human being has ever faced.
Any human being in history. He had to steel himself to face
unimaginable torture, even though He was the most innocent of all human
beings, and He had to do so WILLINGLY. Just a short time later, while
Jesus was facing physical and emotional abuse after he was captured,
Peter denied three times that he even knew Jesus, all while he was
watching the Man he adored and loved as no other, be brutalized for
nothing.
Knowing that Peter is an example of ALL MEN, not just men in the
Church, and how Jesus' faith in Peter never wavered, it is easy to
maintain faith in our current Church leadership. Jesus told us that
the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church, yet he did
say we would suffer many persecutions for our faith, which is exactly
what we are facing now. Weak men within the Church - which has ALWAYS
contained weak men - have allowed the Church to suffer, just like the
first weak men in the Church allowed an entirely innocent Jesus to
suffer. That is something we will always have to live with as
Christians.
I do not doubt Pope Benedict's strict adherence to Church teachings in
any way. Not even a little. That said, he is still a man, and is
subject to all the failings of mortal men, except, when speaking Ex
Cathedra in concert with the Magesterium on matters of faith and morals within the Church. Then and only then, does the Church decree that he is infallible in his pronouncements. He is still a flawed man, but in
those instances, the Holy Spirit speaks to the faithful through him as
the Vicar of Christ. No other faith can come close to claiming
the Apostolic succession that the Catholic Church has, because on
matters of doctrine the Catholic Church has always stayed firm, because
the Popes have all shared the gift of the Holy Spirit when teaching on
these matters.
For two thousand years, in the face of far worse scandals and
persecution, the Popes have all stood firm on doctrines which have
become unpopular with the faithful and un-faithful alike. Yet they
have never wavered. It is not the Church as an institution that protects bad priests, it is bad priests WITHIN the institution that protects bad priests. The fact
the then Cardinal Ratzinger decided not to defrock an aged, dying
priest who had been accused of abuse decades prior, shows his merciful
disposition, not his acceptance of the priest's prior crimes. Since
the Church's mission is to bring people closer to God, and help them
get into Heaven, it would make sense for a Cardinal in the Vatican to
try and help this sick, dying, demented priest save his soul too.
Remember, Jesus didn't hang out with the righteous and worthy, he hung
out with the sinners and tax collectors, and one of the three people
who stayed by his side at the foot of the cross - one of the few BRAVE
people who risked their lives to be there with him, when they knew the
persecution they would face - not Peter or most of the other disciples,
but a repentant, former adulterous (prostitute?) named Mary Magdalene.
Why does the Church hold up a prostitute as a Saint? Why did Jesus
pick his weakest disciple to lead the Church? Why do we have weak,
sick, demented men as priests?
Because, every one of us is a sinner, some more, some less, but none
sinless, except Jesus, and his Mother. What was good enough for them -
weak, sinful men and women in the Church - is good enough for us.
Remember, he who is without sin can cast the first stone at Cardinal
Ratzinger or anybody else in the Church who makes a questionable
decision. (Don't even rush to judgment on the Pope for those
decisions, because you don't know what he knew, nor do you know what
counsel the Holy Spirit might have given him through prayer.)
All I know is that Christians, and especially Catholics, have always
suffered for their faith in different ways. Why would we be willing
now to refuse to suffer for the Church. Is public embarrassment really
too great a suffering? Is self-pride more important than faith in the
one, true Church? The problems with abusive priests are history now.
Pope Benedict is cleaning out the seminaries.
By the way, I think the priests who abused kids should be killed, but
God didn't leave me in charge, so I will submit to those he did leave
in charge.
These problems within the Church are out in the open and because of
that they will finally be corrected and eliminated once and for all.
PB16 is going to be relentless in this. He has never tolerated
deviance, nor will he now.
By the way, if you do some research you will find that this isn't a
Catholic problem. It is equally rampant in every other faith. The
Baptist minister down the street from us was arrested last year for
molesting young boys in his church. A famous black gospel singer wrote
a book about how he was molested in every Baptist church he attended,
all through his childhood. The Catholic Church is the one true Church,
and has and will always face the wrath of the devil, who will try to
bring it down.
*****************************************
I tried to capture the essence of your concern. I took out lots that was erroneous to the discussions of this particular scandal otherwise I'd be here every day with a new defense of my Faith. Because you have no idea how much my mind and meditations have to do with so many of these core decisions that I made and continue to make. I am no blind sheep here.
I typed this response since last night in between Daily Mass, ballet class for my youngest, TaeKwonDo for my youngest boy, prom preparations for my oldest, a trip to the grocery, a heart to heart with my oldest boy, and Skyping with (if my hopes pan out) Fiancee.
Needless to say this was a great effort and at this point I really need to refocus on my online college class and lots of other important family buisness.
All the best,
Shell
from the original poster, in a subsequent post: "It seems to me that sex seems to be a hot button, and rightly so."
Really? Uh, no. Sex should NOT be a hot button. (I'm going to ignore any and all possible double entendre:-) It is a normal, wonderful part of life. And that is one of the many reasons why I am a Pagan. Because so many Christian and other churches, and therefore in this largely Christian country, have made it a dirty, nasty, wrong and horrible thing, then we have issues like this, and pedophilia is made possible through these attitudes. The whole idea of sex being wrong makes the child feel like THEY have sinned even though they were helpless in these situations. And lots not even mention the attitude of the middle East and female circumcision.
If we could be open about sex, and discuss it without all this religious stuff coming in, then the entire country and world would be better off. It would be seen as a normal part of everyone's life, and then prevention of disease and unwanted pregnancy would also be part of the paradigm of normalcy. We even have "the great rite" in some parts of Paganism. That's how normal it is--it's a part of the entire celebration of life, nature, and what the Goddess and God has given us.