RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope

DramaGeek · March 2012

I posted this once, but TK ate it, so I thought I'd repost.

I know we have differing views on horomal birth control (and birth control in general) around here. The Catholic Church's official stance is that hormonal birth control is not ok but natural BC (such as abstaining) is. I believe they still are also against barriers and spermicide/VCF.

Recently the Pope had what some are calling a rant against IVF and IUI, saying that the only acceptable way to conceive a child is through sex.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/pope-faces-backlash-over-rant-against-ivf-treatment/story-fn7x8me2-1226281993953

My personal thoughts on IVF and IUI are really hypocritical since I don't believe in either one but I'm perfectly ok with hormonal birth control. I do think if the church is against BC to control conception, then it needs to be against scientific means to aid in procreation as well.

Thoughts?

fpaemp2011 · March 2012

I don't have any issues with IUI, since there are no "extra" embryos created. I do have issues with IVF, since many "extra" children are destroyed or donated. There is a family in our church who did embryo adoption and have a beautiful 2 year old girl. It's actually one of the less expensive adoption routes, depending on which agency you go through. In their case, the biological parents were still involved in choosing who could adopt their embryos. I don't know the name of the organization, but I do know they're Christian.

ravenray · March 2012

Why don't you agree Dram greek?

I am slightly torn on this issue. For me as long as other embroys aren't being destoryed I don't have any problem with that. However if that is the case then I would be against it.

sessionswedding · March 2012

As someone who will most likely end up needing fertility treatments if I ever do decide to have children, I have never had any problem with IVF or IUI. In fact, I respect the procedures as a way for infertile couples to have a child of their own. If I ever end up going through IVF and there are "extra" embryos, I simply put them up for embryo adoption.

agapecarrie · March 2012

The Catholic Church is about keeping sex and babies linked. Artificial birth control separates that link (sex without babies). IVF separates it (babies without sex).

This does not mean that every sexual act should try to result in conceiving, but that each sexual act is sacred (an image of the trinity), and should not be intentionally sterilized (what we do with the body is what we do with the soul). Therefore, NFP (not rhythm method, but symptom checking so a couple knows when they are fertile and can choose to abstain or not) is acceptable way of spacing pregnancies. Every child has a right to be conceived from a loving marital act (again, the image of Christ's love for His church).

More info: Contraception, why not?

http://www.janetsmith.excerptsofinri.com/

Theology of the Body for beginners and Good news about sex and marriage

both by Christopher West

drama1308 · March 2012

I guess I never really formed an opinion of IVF. I agree with the use of BC to prevent pregnancies you aren't ready for. I don't have the time or patience to do NFP or anything simular, and H and I can't get pregnant right now if I want finish school. (I can't give birth in the middle of student teaching). We have agreed that once I get off BC I'm not getting off it and babies will come when they come.

IMO birth control and family planing are personal decisions that are to be made between you and your spouse/significant other.

agapecarrie · March 2012

Just to clarify....NFP doesn't take any time or patience. I started charting 10 years ago for my health, found health issues I didn't know I had, it was completely empowering to me to learn how my body worked...and made me in awe of God even more becuase I saw how he designed women to work.

It's a basic part of personal hygiene that takes 2 seconds each time I use the restroom.

drama1308 · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_rp-controversial-thoughts-from-the-pope?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:62f51183-7526-4757-927c-4a3032bd7e09Post:4669e445-deed-4983-960d-93b4ea953b8b">Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope</a>:
[QUOTE]Just to clarify....NFP doesn't take any <strong>time or patience</strong>. I started charting 10 years ago for my health, found health issues I didn't know I had, it was completely empowering to me to learn how my body worked...and made me in awe of God even more becuase I saw how he designed women to work. It's a basic part of personal hygiene that takes 2 seconds each time I use the restroom.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

<div>It requires you to wake up around the same time and take your temperature every morning. It also dictates when you are able to have sex or else you have to use a barrier method. It's not right for us, but I'm not saying it's not right for others. </div>

drama1308 · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_rp-controversial-thoughts-from-the-pope?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:62f51183-7526-4757-927c-4a3032bd7e09Post:10137e53-b23c-4c0c-a5d7-d7e599bfbca1">Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope : I figure if you can't get pregnant, you weren't meant to have kids. Like I said, super hypocritical since I'm totally ok with using birth control to prevent kids. Then again, I've never felt the desire to hve a child so I don't understand the drive to have a biological child. In my completely non-maternal brain, <strong>if you can't have your own kid, you should adopt one of the thousands that the biological parents didn't want.</strong>
Posted by DramaGeek[/QUOTE]

<div>I actually agree with this and I have a maternal brain. I would love to have children of our own, but if that isn't possible I would rather adopt.</div>

agapecarrie · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_rp-controversial-thoughts-from-the-pope?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:62f51183-7526-4757-927c-4a3032bd7e09Post:edb94d4c-ff5c-4af8-9177-055b7a047984">Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope : It requires you to wake up around the same time and take your temperature every morning. It also dictates when you are able to have sex or else you have to use a barrier method. It's not right for us, but I'm not saying it's not right for others.
Posted by drama1308[/QUOTE]

<div>Actually, that's only one method of 4 reliable methods. Creighton, Marquette and Billings methods, there is no temp taking.</div><div>
</div><div>It really doesn't take any effort or patience. That's all I'm saying.</div>

ochemjenn · March 2012

Agape, can you explain what you said about sex and the trinity? I don't understand how they're connected. Can you point to some Bible verses that explain the Catholic Church's teachings about contraception?

The article says that contraception excludes God from sex: "Church objects to contraception because it refuses to let God perform his creative act in the arena in which he chose to do it." Birth control does not always work - I truly think that if God REALLY wants a couple to have a baby, it will happen. Birth control or not. So I just don't understand that argument. I haven't finished the article yet, but I was wondering if there was some sort of Biblical support for the argument.

I guess I'm trying to separate Bible teachings (which I try to follow) and Papal decrees (not a Catholic so not something I try to follow but something I would like to understand).

agapecarrie · March 2012

I'll try to get a basic gist, however, the books I recommend are really easy reading, funny, and explain way better than I can. Those books explain JP II's Theology of the Body in a pretty easy way. First off, papal writings are all based on Scripture. Nothing in papal writings conflict with scripture.

(As an asideI know people also disagree what the story of Onan was about- people argue it was about disobedience, but the punishment did not match one for disobedience. BUt there's a minor Scriptural reference)

God created us in His image. Because we believe in the resurrection of the body, our bodies are not shells but they manifest our inner souls. What we do with our body expresses our very self--- our innermost being.

God is an eternal communion of persons. The love of the Father and Son is so complete that it begets a 3rd person, the Holy Spirit. So as the love of husband and wife is complete in self-giving, it results in a 3rd being. He wants us to share in the exchange of the trinity. Our bodies reveal that we are called to be in communion with each other. In EPH 5, we see that marriage is supposed to image Christ's love for the Church. Complete self giving, not partial self giving. A complete surrendering of oneself.

Here's a quote from the TOB West book:

"God imprinted in our sexuality the call to participate in a "created version" of his eternal "exchange of love". In other words, God create us male and female so that we could image his love by becoming a sincere gift fto each other. This sincere giving establishes a "communion of persons" not only between the sexes but also-in the normal course of events-- with a "thrid" who proceeds from them both. In this way, sexual love beomces an icon or earthly image in some sense of the inner life of the Trinity."

God could have given us powers to create mountains, or trees, or an ocean, but those are nothing compared to eternal living soul. Instead, He gave us the power to create, decide when another human being will come into existence, and give them a name. He designed how that creation process takes place. When using Contraception, this procreative element is sterilized. It's only a partial self giving. It says "I love every part of you, except your fertility". You wouldn't cover your face during sex, why put a barrier up on other parts of the body?

So, anyway, I encourage reading those 2 books. Changed my life.

agapecarrie · March 2012

I think its also worth mentioning, that until 1930, all Christian religions were adamantly against Artificial birth control. The connection with sex and procreation was so linked up and obvious at the time that even non-Christian philosphers, etc spoke out against contraception.

Humane Vitae, a document written in the 60s by Pope Paul VI predicted the serious moral problems we are experiencing today.

ochemjenn · March 2012

Thanks, agape. I wasn't trying to insinuate that the Pope would say something in contradiction to scripture - I just didn't know what parts these papal writings are based on. I'm working on a paper so I'm in everything-must-have-a-citation mode.

I get that a marriage between a man and a woman is supposed to be like Christ's love for the church (intense imagery, isn't it?). I guess I look at it as Christ giving himself up for the church because that's what's needed. If neither husband nor wife wants a child, then to me, offering that fertility doesn't make sense because it's not what either needs.

Neither the local nor my school library has those books.

I'll have to see if my church or B&N has them.

musicalsunlight · March 2012

I'm not Catholic so I don't really have an opinion from that POV. I am fine with hormonal BC and IUI and IVF. I have no idea if I would choose to do either if I was unable to conceive naturally because that hasn't been something I have been faced with. But I do not judge others who do because conceiving is such a deeply personal thing and I do not feel it is my place to tell somoene else how to have a kid or not.

agapecarrie · March 2012

You can get the books at amazon

GJones27 · March 2012

My hurried two cents:

-My priest in the Orthodox Church said that sex doesn't have to be just for having having kids. He even quoted something from the Bible that seems to suggest that, but I forget what it was.

-I would imagine that whatever procedure it is where they fertilize an egg and implant it isn't inherently wrong unless they destroy fertilized eggs in the process. Since it's extremely expensive, the standard procedure is to fertilize more than one egg. That is where it becomes a problem. I wonder if it would be okay if you only fertilized one egg and you took that risk financially wise? I'd have to ask my priest.

-That fertility treatment where they try to stimulate production of eggs has one concerning drawback... you might end up like Kate Plus Eight. That has some ethical considerations, especially considering how there are many children needing adoption. Perhaps this is why there is concern about it.

agapecarrie · March 2012

The Catholic church does believe that sex is for unity and procreation, but that you can't separate them. This does not mean that every single sexual act has to intend for conception to occur. Sex during the women's infertile time can be both unitive and procreative (ordered towards procreation because the couple isn't doing anything to intentionally thwart the procreative aspect).

sessionswedding · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_rp-controversial-thoughts-from-the-pope?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:62f51183-7526-4757-927c-4a3032bd7e09Post:7de74beb-9426-4671-8cef-885a9bfa7272">Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope : I actually agree with this and I have a maternal brain. I would love to have children of our own, but if that isn't possible I would rather adopt.
Posted by drama1308[/QUOTE]
DH and I have pretty much agreed that if we can't have a baby of our own - even through fertility treatments - we'll just go childless. Adoption is not for us. Neither is NFP, which isn't right for everyone and does take tremendous time and effort. Not to mention abstinence. I had enough of that on the other side of the altar, thank you very much.

In any case, I've been on BCP for 8 years to treat PCOS. The only other real treatment is to REMOVE the ovaries. Yeah, I think I'll keep taking the pills.

agapecarrie · March 2012

Again, NFP is easy, and does not take time or much effort. If it is hard in the beginning because of crazy cycles, well, that's telling you there is a health issue that should be looked into.

The pill doesn't really treat PCOS, it covers up the symptoms. PCOS is connected to insulin resistence, and the treatment for it is metformin. This actually treats the problem, not the symptoms. You can find more about it at NAPRO technology

http://www.naprotechnology.com/

This is used with the creighton method-- I charted, my doc diagnosed my issues from my charts, treated my PCOS with metformin. Also discoverd I was low progesterone from my charts and I take a natural progesterone at the right time of the cycle.

mrandmrsbrist · March 2012

As someone who's dealing with IF crap right now, I don't really want to get into the debate. But Sessions, you probably will have to chart your cycles (hello NFP!) in order to concieve due to PCOS. Just throwing that out there.

FaithCaitlin · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_rp-controversial-thoughts-from-the-pope?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:62f51183-7526-4757-927c-4a3032bd7e09Post:bd9525a9-1fd8-4bc2-92ac-aa1c94c57abc">Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope</a>:
[QUOTE]I guess I never really formed an opinion of IVF. I agree with the use of BC to prevent pregnancies you aren't ready for. I don't have the time or patience to do NFP or anything simular, and H and I can't get pregnant right now if I want finish school. (I can't give birth in the middle of student teaching). We have agreed that once I get off BC I'm not getting off it and babies will come when they come. IMO birth control and family planing are personal decisions that are to be made between you and your spouse/significant other.
Posted by drama1308[/QUOTE]
This this this this.

agapecarrie · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_rp-controversial-thoughts-from-the-pope?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:62f51183-7526-4757-927c-4a3032bd7e09Post:65f93b04-ccca-43d3-af11-9299799abb2d">Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope</a>:
[QUOTE]Agape, I've never done NFP and only heard information from girls on other boards. Which method do you use and what info do you have to collect, what do you chart, etc.? Also, how did your charting help you determine you had low progesterone?
Posted by naomikb[/QUOTE]

<div>I've been charting creighton method for 10 years--- started it when I was single for my health.</div><div>
</div><div>It is cervical mucous observation---standardized teaching method, with scientific observation. Creighton method is connected to Napro technology, which uses the information from the charts to help Napro docs diagnose issues. Small issues like constant cm can indicate a cervical eversion (Which I had, then was treated and cured of). Short luteal phases, no build up to ovulation, spotting at different times, variable length luteal phases, no peak type symptoms, etc can all indicate minor to major problems. It's amazing that one little observation can tell you so much. </div><div>
</div><div>I had spotting during ovulation, and tail end brown. Both symptoms can indicate low progesterone or pre-cancerous issues. I had an ultrasound and blood tests to confirm low progesterone. I also had anxiety, irritibility, couldn't sleep, depression and several other things that I finally connected to the cycle. (at first, I went to get anti-depressant---was going to medicate the symptom, then figured out I wasn't actually treating the issue, just covering it up). Once I started a natural progesterone (which helps the body make more of its own) , all those things cleared up. There are many women on anti-depressants who could just be taking a natural progesterone to fix the issue.</div>

agapecarrie · March 2012

I also just want to mention...people often underestimate themselves with "controlling themselves". We are definitely called to self mastery (fasting being an example). We all work on controlling what we eat and exercise...so self mastery should be part of everything in our lives.

If you can't control yourself, does sex really mean something then? If you can't say no, what does your yes mean? When one part of a couple gets sick, has kids that need lots of attention, visit the in-laws, these are all reasons to control oneself. Why not in order to avoid the natural outcome of sex, which is children?

The courtship/honeymoon phases that NFP makes a couple take every month can show where the relationship flourishes and needs work. When avoiding pregnancy, and the "urge" comes, people reevaluate their needs to avoid children. This fosters communication every month to talk about where they are emotionally and financially, etc . Just like scripture says a couple can abstain for a time to focus on prayer. It can help make sure that a couple is solving their problems, not just relying on sex to keep them closer, but look for other ways to show affection and be intimate.

One more thing..its also worth noting that every single type of hormonal birth control has potential to be abortive.

fpaemp2011 · March 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_rp-controversial-thoughts-from-the-pope?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:62f51183-7526-4757-927c-4a3032bd7e09Post:c44cc8df-f415-4e00-9cce-45fba3b1aa2c">Re: RP - Controversial thoughts from the Pope</a>:
[QUOTE]The courtship/honeymoon phases that NFP makes a couple take every month can show where the relationship flourishes and needs work. When avoiding pregnancy, and the "urge" comes, people reevaluate their needs to avoid children. This fosters communication every month to talk about where they are emotionally and financially, etc . Just like scripture says a couple can abstain for a time to focus on prayer. It can help make sure that a couple is solving their problems, not just relying on sex to keep them closer, but look for other ways to show affection and be intimate. One more thing..its also worth noting that every single type of hormonal birth control has potential to be abortive.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]<div>This exactly. I will say that we are not Catholic, and do not believe that intimacy while abstaining from intercourse is wrong. However, when we were TTA with NFP, we found that coming back together after 7-10 days "without" was amazing. We usually end up with a dry week or so a month, anyways, usually because one of us gets sick for 3 days, and then the other one wakes up with it. Joys of marriage and working with kids.

</div>

BMcLeodTeam · March 2012

I have never really developed an opinion on IVF or IUI. As someone who is unable to have children before even getting married (thank you ovarian cancer) I know FI and I have talked pretty seriously about it and we're going to be adopting... its something we both feel strongly about and after a lot of prayer we both believe is the right choice for us. That being said, that doesn't mean its the right choice for everyone... every couple should talk and make the right choice for them.

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