Moms and Maids

Under 21 Bridesmaid problems... Vent...kind of long

Maybe a little advice, maybe I just need to vent, but here's my deal..

I am hosting a bachelorette party for my best friend this Saturday with another of our girlfriends, and let me tell you, its been frustrating. 

The sister of her FI is 19, and she's got the TOTAL 19 year old mentality.  She is one of the bridesmaids, and she has been a pain from start to finish, whether picking out bridesmaid dresses, to complaining who she's walking down with (direct quote about brides 30 something brother- "OMG not the old guy! he's gonna like totally rape me!:) ugh.  So, in the planning of the party, she's been b*tching and moaning about being under age, and we have done our best to try to accomodate her.  What we all had, and especially the bride, wanted to do was either a pedal pub around town, or do a wine tasting tour in a limo.  Well, she can't attend things like that, and after asking her if she'd just be okay with going out to dinner, and then meeting up with us afterward, ya know, cuz its her FSIL's party, not hers, she snots around and pouts and says no, she wants to be in on it.  Bride doesn't want to p/o the family, so we just go with it.

SO fine, we plan on going out around downtown here, being in a hotel room, then going out to dinner. Then going back and maybe have a wine tasting (bah, not as fun as a limo) and playing some games.   We wouldn't have gotten this hotel room (we're all local) if not for her on the off chance we do decide we want to go out, at least she'll still be "there" when we get back.  So its an extra expense for all involved. 

It might sound a little lame, but to try and at least have a little bit of the bachelorette party experience Bride wants out and about.  I offered to talk to this girl, and/or the mother, but Bride said she'd handle it, and this is the solution we came up with.  I'm not about to start arguing with OTHER people's mother in laws... ha. 

So, to make this long enough story a little short, Bride saw her yesterday, and she was STILL snarky about the off chance that we'd go out on the town for a while without her.  Bride told her she doesn't really want her to drink at the hotel, either, and she gets even angrier, saying she has a right to, etc etc.  We don't want to get in trouble for having a minorr consuming alcohol.

It has all just turned into a big bummer and its sad to say that I am just waiting for it to be over with. I know some sparks are going to fly on Saturday, and I just dont know how we should handle the snarky comments and eye rolls that we're all going to deal with throughout the evening.  Any advice on how to deal with this child? Thanks

Re: Under 21 Bridesmaid problems... Vent...kind of long

  • Simply FatedSimply Fated member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_under-21-bridesmaid-problems-ventkind-of-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:8b2724d5-def6-4c3e-9706-3b028fac549bPost:35a78111-1b2c-470d-84fc-9fb5f5317490">Under 21 Bridesmaid problems... Vent...kind of long</a>:
    [QUOTE] So, to make this long enough story a little short, Bride saw her yesterday, and she was STILL snarky about the off chance that we'd go out on the town for a while without her. <strong> Bride told her she doesn't really want her to drink at the hotel, either, and she gets even angrier, saying she has a right to, etc etc.  We don't want to get in trouble for having a minorr consuming alcohol. </strong>It has all just turned into a big bummer and its sad to say that I am just waiting for it to be over with. I know some sparks are going to fly on Saturday, and I just dont know how we should handle the snarky comments and eye rolls that we're all going to deal with throughout the evening.  Any advice on how to deal with this child? Thanks
    Posted by Bridgebo117[/QUOTE]

    No, she doesn't have the right to. Is it illegal for her to drink where you are going to be? Then you all will get arrested, not her. What does he rmother say about this?

    It sounds like she is going to whine no matter what you do unless she is completely involved.
    So your options are to completely involve her or let her attend for part of the evening.
    If you want to completely involve her, I suggest scrapping the limo, wine tasting, bar hopping and going somewhere where those who can drink, can and those who can't, can't. You can take a limo to get there and back, so you won't miss out on that experience. There are also tons of things you can do that don't involve alcohol. Are you guys dead set on drinking that night?
    Or you can put your foot down and split the night up. It's not really fair to exclude her, though. Maybe you guys can go out drinking on a different night?

    On a side note.... The comment about the 30 year old guy raping her makes her sound like a 12 year old, not a 19 year old. And she thinks she has a right to drink?
    image
  • Bridgebo117Bridgebo117 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Oh I know, right!?!  That comment is one of many gems that have been spouted from her mouth this past year of planning...

    She'd like to think she's got a right to drink, because she's the queen of the world and all, but the rest of us really aren't OK with that on the off chance something happens and she gets caught and we all get into trouble.

    We decided against the limo and pedal pub etc etc because of her, and ended up getting a hotel room downtown here so we can just do dinner and then hang out back there.  The bride isn't a HUGE drinker and rarely cuts loose, and kind of wanted to do that for the party.  I'm just getting nervous of the ensuing arguments about if we end up hitting up a bar or two after dinner and she just waits for us back at the room...  To be honest, i look forward to sneaking away for a couple hours and having an "adults only" thing.  Woulda been nice for her to take a backseat and be the bigger person, and just let us throw her a 21st bday party
  • SarahPLizSarahPLiz member
    10000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_under-21-bridesmaid-problems-ventkind-of-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:8b2724d5-def6-4c3e-9706-3b028fac549bPost:4ebeabba-30ab-4e8b-a868-5db4739f2984">Re: Under 21 Bridesmaid problems... Vent...kind of long</a>:
    [QUOTE]The bride gets to choose her bridesmaids.  If you are planning a bachelorette party, all the bridesmaids should be included, including any that are underage.  No alcohol.  Or os there a venue that she can attend and NOT drink alcohol (sodapop?), but has games or dancing, live music, etc.?  You are not responsible for her attitude, but you are responsible for including her anfd choosing a venue that will be legal for her to attend.
    Posted by CMGr[/QUOTE]

    I respectfully disagree. As long as part of the evening includes her, the rest doesn't have to. They can drink at the hotel and the restaurant in her presence without her partaking.

    This would be like saying that if your kid can't come with you to a family party because people will be drinking. That's a load of crap. Underage people are invited to parties where drinking occurs ALL THE TIME. This doesn't give them the right to drink. If she would rather not go, then that is her perrogative.
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  • Bridgebo117Bridgebo117 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    CMgr: Agreed.. we are going to try to get into 18+ clubs too while we're out, but me and the other girl trying to plan this have been checking in with the bride and everything as to waht to do, and she's basically been the person behind the plans. 

    We're having dinner together at a restaurant first, and hopefully that'll just run long, and we can go back to the room and play some games etc etc.  She just thinks she gets to get drunk off our dime in a public place, (we didn't suggest that) and she is mad now that she can't even do THAT, too. 
  • Bridgebo117Bridgebo117 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011

    If she had politely said "Hey i'll go out to dinner, then see you gals later! Have fun!" everything woulda been great.  Its just we're catering to her SO much, its getting un-fun.  And the 18+ clubs are all underagers, so it'l be a bunch of late 20's people in the 18 yr old club. haha. 

  • Simply FatedSimply Fated member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_under-21-bridesmaid-problems-ventkind-of-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:8b2724d5-def6-4c3e-9706-3b028fac549bPost:e947505e-3b68-44cb-8736-a35d7ed29a9d">Re: Under 21 Bridesmaid problems... Vent...kind of long</a>:
    [QUOTE]Oh I know, right!?!  That comment is one of many gems that have been spouted from her mouth this past year of planning... She'd like to think she's got a right to drink, because she's the queen of the world and all, but the rest of us really aren't OK with that on the off chance something happens and she gets caught and we all get into trouble. We decided against the limo and pedal pub etc etc because of her, and ended up getting a hotel room downtown here so we can just do dinner and then hang out back there.  The bride isn't a HUGE drinker and rarely cuts loose, and kind of wanted to do that for the party.  I'm just getting nervous of the ensuing arguments about if we end up hitting up a bar or two after dinner <strong>and she just waits for us back at the room</strong>...  To be honest, i look forward to sneaking away for a couple hours and having an "adults only" thing.  Woulda been nice for her to take a backseat and be the bigger person, and just let us throw her a 21st bday party
    Posted by Bridgebo117[/QUOTE]
    lol, you're going to ditch her at the hotel? She'll have to just sit there in the room by herself while you guys go out? Hmm... maybe someone can come pick her up or you guys can take a limo to take her home before you head out?
    I mean, I know she is a brat, but even I wouldn't want to sit alone in a room while everyone else goes out. Actually, no, that isn't true, I'd just bring along a book to read to entertain myself, but that's just me...
    image
  • Bridgebo117Bridgebo117 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011

    No, the sister is saying she wants to get drunk on our dime, like we'd just supply her w/ booze later. Which is a no- no. And the bride isn't really being a bridezilla, she's just trying to make everyone "happy" without stepping on toes.  We just ran things by her to make sure she'd really like that....we wanted the feedback.  There's still surprises for her and everything..but she's gotta know what to wear/where to meet and the rough outline... in my opinion

  • Bridgebo117Bridgebo117 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    she's a poor college student! ha...she can watch free cable and have a soak in the hottub..what better! lol
  • SarahPLizSarahPLiz member
    10000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_under-21-bridesmaid-problems-ventkind-of-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:357Discussion:8b2724d5-def6-4c3e-9706-3b028fac549bPost:29532dc4-c668-4181-98a1-136b0b1b66d5">Re: Under 21 Bridesmaid problems... Vent...kind of long</a>:
    [QUOTE]If YOU are hosting the bachelorette party, then YOU get to plan it.  The bride does NOT get to plan the party.  She is not the host.  By suggesting that she want to get drunk on your dime, she is being tacky.  It sounds to me that the bridezilla is the real problem here.
    Posted by CMGr[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>I think that you are forgetting that while the bride doesn't get to plan or host the b-party, her preferences for activities should be considered. You wouldn't want to host a party for her that only YOU would enjoy! DUH!</div><div>
    </div><div>I don't see the bride as a bridezilla at all from this post At All.

    </div>
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  • Simply FatedSimply Fated member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    It sounds like the bride wants her there, but wants to drink, but doesn't want this bridesmaid to drink?
    I think you and the bride needs to get on the same page, lol. Although you are planning the party, you want to make sure it's something the Bride will enjoy. Surely there is a way to compromise.... somehow, lol
    image
  • Bridgebo117Bridgebo117 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Yea exactly.  She wants the best of both worlds, but we aren't going to have that. Oh well...grin and bear it...eh?

    SOOO...it'll either turn out super awesome and she'll check her attitude for the night and be willing to sacrifice a couple hours for her FSIL, OR she'll piss and moan and someone will have a few cocktails and tell her off... hopefully the latter. And then we can go have a jolly good time.
  • sarah42ndsarah42nd member
    1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    why don't you guys throw two parties .lol. One where she there and one where she is not ( or you can just accidently all show up  somewhere all at the same time without her .lol )
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  • edited December 2011
    Can you do drinks at a restaurant so the FSIL can attend?  She also might be able to go to wine tastings.  My sister and BIL's are newly 21 and almost 21, and they've both been able to go to wineries with our families.  They just don't get to actually taste the wine. 

    There was only one time where it was an issue, at a tasting room in California that had an odd liquor license which specifically didn't allow anyone under 21 to be on the property.  Otherwise, they were usually just given crackers or pretzels to munch on.
  • edited December 2011
    Mom here.  She's underage...end of story.  With her attitude, I would not be willing to take responsibility for someone who could get me thrown out of someplace...or worse.  Leaving her alone in a hotel room that you are responsible for is also a bad idea, especially if she is spoiled or mad.  Either pick something that is not acohol centered, or make sure that someone who can control her and take responsibility for her is along for the ride.  There is nothing more dangerous than a spoiled, mad teenager!
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  • trix1223trix1223 member
    5000 Comments 25 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    Muffin's mom clearly and succintly summed up the situation and what needs to be done.  Well said Mama Muffin!
    "Trix, it's what they/our parents wanted. Why so judgemental? And why is your wedding date over a year and a half ago? And why do you not have a groom's name? And why have you posted over 12,000 posts? And why do you always say mean things to brides?" palegirl146
  • MairePoppyMairePoppy Connecticut mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 5000 Comments 500 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    Another mom weighing in: Keep this party simple, like dinner out or mani/pedis and cancel the hotel room.That can be the 'official' bachelorette party.

    If the bride wants to do a pub crawl, do it on another night. Don't mention it to the FSIL.
                       
  • Starlight KelStarlight Kel member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Why can't you guys just suck it up, do dinner somewhere (Those who can drink can have a few) and then another night go out dancing and drinking?  Don't treat the night out drinking as a bach party, just some girls out having fun.  Everyone pays for themselves and everyone is happy!  Would that work? 
  • edited December 2011
    bride does not have ANY say in what will go on at the bachelorette party of what they will do etc.  She is not planning the party, she needs to stay out of it
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  • Starlight KelStarlight Kel member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Maybe they are nice bridesmaids and asked her?  I know i'd rather spend my money on something the bride really wants.
    ll6747
  • edited December 2011
    It is rude to leave out members of the bridal party esp one that is underage and wouldn't be able to attend.. so doing a dinner or shopping day or something should be done to allow everyone to attend and be involved with. If the bride wants a crazy drinking night, she can do it another time with the other BM's.
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  • Bridgebo117Bridgebo117 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    We had thought about having two seperate things, but one of the BM's is from out of town, and we are just trying to do it all in one shot.  (we ran it by the sis in law, too, and she didn't want to be unincluded on that party, either...soooo... bah).  The way I see it, we are sick of this girls bs in the first place, and we've already changed plans for her.  We've made it so she'll be out and about for dinner, and we've researched 18+ clubs etc for the chick to get into, and if nobody else will go in there, then I guess I'll suck it up and go into the teeny bopper club and let the Bride go do her bachelorette stuff with her other g/f's.   The whole point here is that we just wanted to do something fun for my girlfriend, something that SHE wants to do, and the sis in law in being a snark at every turn.  I'll turn my happy face on.  

    I really don't understand why people want to make bachelorette parties such a secret from the bride.  I'm getting married next year, and when friends decide to plan it, I'd like to at least know the rough outline of the night.  I dont know ALL of the ladies going, ie her work friends, so, I dont know what THEY are like or if they even have budgets to do things like a limo or pedal pub thing like we had thought of.  I dunno... I just don't see why its such a big deal to run it by her first.  Me and the other BM planned it together, just asked a few questions to see if she'd dig it or not. 

    This is a first time planning this for me, and the Bride, obviously, is new at this too.  This is the way it worked for us, so I guess to each her own on how to involve teh bride or not, but she wanted to have a little bit of an idea of what was going on, and I am glad she did.


    Ha I guess I should have posted this earlier...  lots of good ideas on here. The Evits and FB messages have already been sent out for the other ladies, so looks like we gotta stick to this plan..  Hopefully we'll just have a suuuper duper time at dinner and go back to the room and play games..quietly ;)   Thanks ladies!
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_under-21-bridesmaid-problems-ventkind-of-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:8b2724d5-def6-4c3e-9706-3b028fac549bPost:662be4d5-50c3-4c30-8fda-61af4b5f16a0">Re: Under 21 Bridesmaid problems... Vent...kind of long</a>:
    [QUOTE]We had thought about having two seperate things, but one of the BM's is from out of town, and we are just trying to do it all in one shot.  (we ran it by the sis in law, too, and she didn't want to be unincluded on that party, either...soooo... bah).  The way I see it, we are sick of this girls bs in the first place, and we've already changed plans for her.  We've made it so she'll be out and about for dinner, and we've researched 18+ clubs etc for the chick to get into, and if nobody else will go in there, then I guess I'll suck it up and go into the teeny bopper club and let the Bride go do her bachelorette stuff with her other g/f's.   The whole point here is that we just wanted to do something fun for my girlfriend, something that SHE wants to do, and the sis in law in being a snark at every turn.  I'll turn my happy face on.   I really don't understand why people want to make bachelorette parties such a secret from the bride.  I'm getting married next year, and when friends decide to plan it, I'd like to at least know the rough outline of the night.  I dont know ALL of the ladies going, ie her work friends, so, I dont know what THEY are like or if they even have budgets to do things like a limo or pedal pub thing like we had thought of.  I dunno... I just don't see why its such a big deal to run it by her first.  Me and the other BM planned it together, just asked a few questions to see if she'd dig it or not.  This is a first time planning this for me, and the Bride, obviously, is new at this too.  This is the way it worked for us, so I guess to each her own on how to involve teh bride or not, but she wanted to have a little bit of an idea of what was going on, and I am glad she did. Ha I guess I should have posted this earlier...  lots of good ideas on here. The Evits and FB messages have already been sent out for the other ladies, so looks like we gotta stick to this plan..  Hopefully we'll just have a suuuper duper time at dinner and go back to the room and play games..quietly ;)   Thanks ladies!
    Posted by Bridgebo117[/QUOTE]

    I would say that bride can have somewhat of a say.. like say you guys can afford a restaurant of $50 a head and she wants the expensive $100 a person place.. well then no, she can't have say in that.. but maybe say choose PF Changs if it's the same price of Cuba Libre or something if she prefered PF Changs.  Stuff like that.  Anyway hope all goes well and accordingly to plan with the bach.
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  • TheCranberryTheCranberry member
    1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I think it's fine to have a separate thing from the underage BM.  One of my friends had a bach party in Vegas, and I don't even think she invited her underage cousin who was a BM.  Of course, I don't know whether the cousin was upset or not, but it didn't seem to be an issue.

    You can always do a mani/pedi then dinner and then the 21+ people go out partying while the 18 year old goes home.  It sucks that she can't come, but she gets to participate in some of the festivities and the bride gets to do what she wants for her bach party.
  • filawfilaw member
    Ninth Anniversary 100 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    Bridgebo, what you're running into here from some posters comes from a history of responding to brides that come here and complain, "My BM's aren't throwing me the super expensive party I wanted!  Aren't they lame!"

    They aren't saying that you should keep it a secret, I think they're just reacting to a general aversion to a bride that appears to be "meddling" too much in throwing the parties when the BM's don't want it.

    That's clearly not your case tho, as you have stated multiple times that you *asked* for her help and opinions.  And that you *all* want a night out on the town and it's just the 19 yr old sister that is the problem.

    I don't know what to tell you to do.  Leaving her alone sounds like it might be asking for trouble.  It really seems like the best way would be to try to swing sepearte nigths or something?  I dunno, the 19 sis is being difficult.
  • superjules916superjules916 member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    My MOH is only going to be 17 at the time of the wedding (Comment if you must but she is my baby sister and best friend) She figured from the beginning, as did I, that my b-party would start out as a dinner or something with all of us and then a 21+ bridesmaid would take the reigns as an "honorary MOH" for the night and plan the rest of it. It was never even suggested that my sister should be involved in the whole thing. Maybe you could do that with her and then take the bride out another night without calling it a "b-party." You all would know what it was but when asked could play the "friends taking her out to destress" card. Better still if you invite non WP women too. 
  • Bridgebo117Bridgebo117 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Hey there...

    Just in case anyone cared, just a quick debreif from last Saturday, which, I must say, was a successful bachelorette party, all things considering...

    Everything went wonderfully with everyone, most of the girls didn't know eachother that well, but we all (minus 1...ha) got along great, the bride had a great time out and about, and we all made it from point A to B safe and sound, which was also one of my bigger fears...

    Under 21-er, tho, did exactly as suspected.  She shows up late at the hotel, WET HAIR, no makeup, nothing ready, and takes her sweet time getting ready.  She was fine at dinner, but made sure to mention how much it sucked not being able to drink at the restaurant.  Went back to the room, played some games, and were in there until around midnight. Well, some of the ladies that were going home that evening thought it'd be fun to get Bride a shot or two and dance, so, as we had planned, we headed out and specifically said we'd keep it to the closest bar, and only be gone for an hour.  Another BM who is preggo stayed with her, and they were going to maybe order a PPV movie and play a couple games. Well, we get down to the bar, Bride gets a call, and under 21 BM is whining saying how its not fair she can't go with, so she and preggo BM were leaving.  Bride cries, we console, go back to the room for her to say goodbye, and under 21-er huffs out.  Bride cries again. 

    BUT, after a bit of rallying the bride up, we made it out to the bar, which turned out to be AMAZINGLY fun for the bride, she was a big hit in her outfit, ran into some old High School teachers actually, haha, who bought her a drink. We danced and had a great time.  She kind of knew it would happen with the girl, but she got over it, and we pulled it together for her and she really enjoyed it.

    Thanks to everyone who posted comments on here. Its good to hear points on both sides of the situation and get some feedback. Really appreciate it
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_moms-maids_under-21-bridesmaid-problems-ventkind-of-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:357Discussion:8b2724d5-def6-4c3e-9706-3b028fac549bPost:ab62554b-3a02-4154-abd1-d54c4488e9e2">Re: Under 21 Bridesmaid problems... Vent...kind of long</a>:
    [QUOTE]Hey there... Just in case anyone cared, just a quick debreif from last Saturday, which, I must say, was a successful bachelorette party, all things considering... Everything went wonderfully with everyone, most of the girls didn't know eachother that well, but we all (minus 1...ha) got along great, the bride had a great time out and about, and we all made it from point A to B safe and sound, which was also one of my bigger fears... Under 21-er, tho, did exactly as suspected.  She shows up late at the hotel, WET HAIR, no makeup, nothing ready, and takes her sweet time getting ready.  She was fine at dinner, but made sure to mention how much it sucked not being able to drink at the restaurant.  Went back to the room, played some games, and were in there until around midnight. Well, some of the ladies that were going home that evening thought it'd be fun to get Bride a shot or two and dance, so, as we had planned, we headed out and specifically said we'd keep it to the closest bar, and only be gone for an hour.  Another BM who is preggo stayed with her, and they were going to maybe order a PPV movie and play a couple games.<strong> Well, we get down to the bar, Bride gets a call, and under 21 BM is whining saying how its not fair she can't go with, so she and preggo BM were leaving.  Bride cries, we console, go back to the room for her to say goodbye, and under 21-er huffs out.  </strong>Bride cries again.  BUT, after a bit of rallying the bride up, we made it out to the bar, which turned out to be AMAZINGLY fun for the bride, she was a big hit in her outfit, ran into some old High School teachers actually, haha, who bought her a drink. We danced and had a great time.  She kind of knew it would happen with the girl, but she got over it, and we pulled it together for her and she really enjoyed it. Thanks to everyone who posted comments on here. Its good to hear points on both sides of the situation and get some feedback. Really appreciate it
    Posted by Bridgebo117[/QUOTE]
     
    Okay everything seems fine except the bolded part.  If under 21 and preggo want to leave, then so be it.  Let them.  They aren't required to hang around and stay and it's nothing to "cry" over.  You didn't even have to say good bye.  They could have just left and that was that.  End of story.
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