S/O Gender Neutrality and Children

heyimbren · June 2011

I know we already talked about the "genderless baby".

And along the same lines, I just read some articles this morning about a school in Sweden where they're trying to make the preschool entirely gender neutral. They don't allow gender specific pronouns, toys, and they carry over the same idea into family ideals (such as the stories allowed in the preschool): according to the Daily Mail, all the books with have either homosexual parents, single parents, or adopted children.

Another example used by the Daily Mail article is when they're playing house, instead of fighting over who gets to be the mom, they suggest having two or three moms instead.

Thoughts on this? Do you think we can go too far with this attempt at inclusion? Where's the line drawn?

Daily Mail article here

MSN Blog Article on it here

[Deleted User] · June 2011

To me, this is going too far. It is my belief that inclusion should not be defined as excluding the opposing view. If the school wants to promote gender acceptance I think that is wonderful, but to go so far as to say there should be no distinction between genders is a bit much. Why can't the school simply introduce the idea that there are a variety of genders & family set-ups?

heyimbren · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_gender-neutrality-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:bab9107e-42d4-48d4-9abc-1232ef64dfddPost:ce791b41-1cec-4b36-8a75-198548feb710">Re: S/O Gender Neutrality and Children</a>:
[QUOTE]To me, this is going too far. It is my belief that <strong>inclusion should not be defined as excluding the opposing view</strong>. If the school wants to promote gender acceptance I think that is wonderful, but to go so far as to say there should be no distinction between genders is a bit much. Why can't the school simply introduce the idea that there are a variety of genders & family set-ups?
Posted by allusive007[/QUOTE]

That's exactly what I don't like about it as well, Allusive. I especially noticed that with the storybooks and the families and how they were purposefully excluding the more "traditional" family models.

I'm not really sure I understand the point about using gender neutral pronouns.

[Deleted User] · June 2011

I always love your thought provoking questions on here Bren! Really gets people to think about what they truly believe.

This one is a toughie for me! I agree that I don't like the exclusion of traditional family models. I realize that we need to find ways to incorporate more variety in regards to the ideas of family and gender - but I certainly don't want anyone to tell me that I shouldn't identify myself as female/feminine or that I shouldn't aspire to be a mother or a bride or whatever someday. I think we have to be careful that we are allowing children to tell us who they really are without shaping their ideas of right and wrong one way or the other.

tricky, tricky.

Beads921 · June 2011

I feel this is going too far as well. I feel like they're actually excluding the more 'traditional' family - a family with 2 parents (a male and a female), and their biological children. Being inclusive has to INCLUDE everybody, in this case, all different kinds of families.

I also disagree with gender neutrality at the degree this school is doing it. Again, acceptance is fine, but there is a line. Gender identity is important.

kellyt89 · June 2011

There was a quote in that article about how gender are not the problem, it's saying that one gender role is better than another. The same goes with family setups. I think that acting like gender doesn't exist for a few years in preschool is sort of pointless because they're going to go to an elementary school, middle/high school, college, job and life where gender WILL matter.

This is going to sound reeeeally hokey, but I think that the idea should be to embrace people's differences, not pretend they don't exist.

cu97tiger · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_gender-neutrality-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:bab9107e-42d4-48d4-9abc-1232ef64dfddPost:ce791b41-1cec-4b36-8a75-198548feb710">Re: S/O Gender Neutrality and Children</a>:
[QUOTE]To me, this is going too far. It is my belief that inclusion should not be defined as excluding the opposing view. If the school wants to promote gender acceptance I think that is wonderful, but to go so far as to say there should be no distinction between genders is a bit much. Why can't the school simply introduce the idea that there are a variety of genders & family set-ups?
Posted by allusive007[/QUOTE]

<div>Allusive, I think you said this really well. It clearly is not inclusive if they've left out the family situation that the majority of children grow up in (I'm guessing it's the majority, but single parenting might be a close second?). </div><div>
</div><div>Regardless, I think raising a child genderless might be very detrimental to the child. It will help those children that eventually have gender issues, but may hurt the children who do not. In the case of children with gender issues, I think the PARENTS should be the ones to address it, helping the child to determine what they want to wear, what toys they want to play with, etc. And I'm guessing they don't even know they have a question about their gender until they're out of preschool... </div><div>
</div><div>PS Clearly teachers should let boys play with dolls and girls play with trucks at any age. But our society is so touchy about that subject, that we pigeon-hole kids super early. I think if WE just relaxed a little, we'd be fine, instead of having to go to the extreme of genderless schools. Great question Bren!</div>

caitlin.cave · June 2011

I agree that ALL types of family should be represented. This means not having only books about traditional families, but it also means not excluding them. I can see what they're trying to do by not allowing gender specific pronouns because children take their attitudes about what is acceptable for them from which gender they identify with, but I don't think it's doing anything to have this policy at school. Chances are that mom and dad have already told Sally she's a girl.

I definitely think that kids should be encouraged to play with whatever they want, but I think the way to do that is to aviod saying things like "boys don't wear pink!" and "trucks are for boys."

KatyRoseM · June 2011

This is going way too far. Genders exist so pretending like kids won't notice them is insane. We also life in the world where there is still a traditional family, ignoring it is insane. Having non traditional families too is fine, but what they are doing here is saying homosexual couples with kids should be normal, but a two parent household with a mom and a dad is not. Sorry, thats not good either. I don't get how toys are not gender neutral. I honestly don't. Is there a toy out there that won't work if its used by a girl? A kitchen set is a gender neutral toy if boys get to play with it too. Gender is normal, and people in society have different roles, often that falls along gender lines but it doesn't have to. Acting like there is no gender won't make those issues go away, but understanding that no gender is better and that its ok if you want to fill a different gender's role will help kids.

ravenray · June 2011

<p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="line-height:115%;font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';color:#1f1f1f;font-size:9.5pt;">In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_gender-neutrality-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:bab9107e-42d4-48d4-9abc-1232ef64dfddPost:436bbb9b-9795-4a32-8ddc-c5cbb4562c75">Re: S/O Gender Neutrality and Children</a>:
[QUOTE]This is going way too far. Genders exist so pretending like kids won't notice them is insane. We also life in the world where there is still a traditional family, ignoring it is insane. Having non traditional families too is fine, but what they are doing here is saying homosexual couples with kids should be normal, but a two parent household with a mom and a dad is not. Sorry, thats not good either. I don't get how toys are not gender neutral. I honestly don't. Is there a toy out there that won't work if its used by a girl? A kitchen set is a gender neutral toy if boys get to play with it too. Gender is normal, and people in society have different roles, often that falls along gender lines but it doesn't have to. Acting like there is no gender won't make those issues go away, but understanding that no gender is better and that its ok if you want to fill a different gender's role will help kids.
Posted by KatyRoseM[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you. I really can’t write about this subject because I know I will offend someone.<span> </span>So I will just agree with Katy.<span> </span>:) </span></p>

desertsun · June 2011

Ugh, this kind of thing drives me crazy. There are PHYSIOLOGICAL differences between males and females. Fact.

So pretending like those don't exist is just stupid.

Plus, I think it's very confusing for children to pretend that their different bodies don't make them different. Children are not stupid. They notice from a very young age that males and females are different. Pretending they aren't is just confusing, and IMO, detrimental to children. It will only lead to more confusion and angst.

I am not at all saying we need gender-specific toys or roles. I'm just saying that I think artificially DEconstructing gender is potentially just as harmful, IMO, as sexist gender roles.

Blue & White · June 2011

I agree with allusive's initial comment that you really don't want to be excluding the opposing view as well.

I think that encouraging boy or girl children to do what makes them happy is a lot more productive than encouraging boys to play with trucks and girls to play with dolls. But I want all my children, regardless of gender, to realize that education is paramount. And that math is cool.

I'm one of those girls who kicked all the boys' butts in math and science. I'm totally okay with that. I'd do it again. (It drives me CRAZY when people say girls can't do math or science...which yes, happens all the dang time. Trust me, we can. Not all of us like it, but we can.)

bethsmiles · June 2011

I would not be sending my own children to a place like that. I agree with all the PPs that this is just way too far. Just let kids be kids, they don't need all this crap. These are issues ADULTS have, not children. Why can't we just teach kids to be nice to everyone and not enforce traditional gender roles. They are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

jaycee7389 · June 2011

I agree with allusive. How would excluding traditional families be anymore helpful than excluding non-traditional families. It seems to me they are missing the point of their own "experiment" or whatever you'd like to call it. They are still singling out a certain family dynamic and making children believe it is wrong or different.

And also, as desert said, males and females are physiologically different. I think encouraging males and females to try the same things and go outside of the box in what "we" have decided is socially acceptable for each gender. Children should be able to make their own choice. Taking away what we now consider normal choices would not really be giving them one.

Sparrow87 · June 2011

I agree with Allusive- a truly balanced classroom needs to have all views and opinions included in order to be truly beneficial for the children.

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