Interesting Opinion Piece on IVF and the church

Karen's MOH · May 2011

CNN had this opinion piece from the father of that IVF embryo mixup and his take on the Church's teachings on IVF. I thought it was pretty interesting and thought this board might as well:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/10/my-take-catholic-church-should-reverse-ivf-opposition/?hpt=C2

caitriona87 · May 2011

I can feel some sympathy for their situation--I have not experienced infertility but I know from talking to people who have that there are a lot of common feelings with my situation (death of my first child.-)--of course they are different but at the same time there are some overlapping experiences. However, I really have to vehemently disagree with almost everything he said. I think he (perhaps understandably so, I don't know) taken things personally which really aren't against HIM at all. A person and their actions are not the same thing. The Church condemning IVF is not the same as condemning the people who do it. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

There was also a whole lot of "I want" "We want" "me me me." We see through JPII's Theology of the Body the concept of the gift--God to us, us to God, each of us to our spouses, etc. Something can't be a gift if we snatch it up for ourselves. God is the author of life, not us. We cannot see all ends and the crosses we are given to bear have a purpose for our lives and those of others.

It also seems to conflate the issue of treatment for infertility with procedures like IVF. IVF doesn't treat the cause of infertility so these are fundamentally different things whereas this writer treats them as if they are the same thing.

All in all, the Church is unbelievably consistent with regard to sexual and reproductive issues and the reason is this--all of Her teachings on these matters stem from the theology about the nature of God and the relationship between the three Persons of the Trinity and about the relation of God to us. These teachings all hang together like a house of cards, and to reject one is ultimately to reject all, as well as to espouse incorrect ideas about the nature of God. None of that is going to change. It is the very foundation of the Faith. It is not possible. The Church lacks the authority to change it. She can only transmit what She has been given by Christ.

catarntina · May 2011

When a fertility center made a critical error by transferring another couple's embryos to my wife, we were thrust into an unusual pregnancy and eventually found ourselves at the center of an intense media storm. On September 24, 2009, the day Carolyn gave birth to a very loved baby boy, who was immediately turned over to his genetic parents, the Catholic Diocese of Toledo released a statement to The Toledo Blade condemning IVF as "morally unacceptable."

I am from Toledo, OH. I was married in Toledo, OH. The priest who performed my ceremony knew this couple personally.

This priest is very liberal (compared to the priests in Colorado where I now live). At our very first meeting with him, he asked DH and I, "Do you want children?" "Yes." "Great! So what happens if you find out you are unable to have children?" We both answered, without any thought, "We'd adopt."

He was very pleased with that answer, and then told us this story about this very couple.

I don't think he was condenming them. It's just a horrible story that he'd rather not see happen again.

I don't think the church should change their stance on IVF. This family already had 2 children, and they wanted a 3rd. God said they couldn't have a 3rd, so they took God out of the equation. That may sound horrible for me to say, but as Caitriona said, there is a "me me me" attitude, and I want it now.

Riss91 · May 2011

Is it lazy to just say "ditto" to caitriona?

I think it's difficult because how can you tell those that are dealing with infertility "Hey, it's just not in the cards for you?". It's a really big deal and once you've exhausted treatments to help your fertility so that you can conceive naturally, the only alternative is adoption. Though I would see adoption as an equal blessing, I know it must be hard to digest not having another option.

I think what pp said about the crosses we are given to bear is really important. We are meant to sacrifice and suffer in small ways and big ways. It's a really hard concept to accept and embrace. It comes down to trusting in God.

I whole-heartedly agree that the Church should not change its stance on this issue. You cannot change one argument without degrading the others.

I also think the author twisted the Church's views a bit and I think he attacked the whole Church rather than the actions of the one Church that spoke out about IVF in a poorly chosen manner. I wish the spokespeople for the Church were better at communicating.

Riss91 · May 2011

The Church condemned the ACT, not the COUPLE. I think that is something the author twisted for sure. But, there are nicer ways of expressed the views of the Church and I don't believe the Church should be radically denouncing this kind of stuff at inopportune moments. It puts the focus on the Church's method of communicating and NOT on the underlying belief, which should be the focus.

Calypso1977 · May 2011

i read the book that just came out recently, written by this couple. a very moving story and you couldnt help but feel for both couples.

that said, throughout the book, they stated in several places that they knew IVF was against church teaching. they found every excuse in teh book to try to justify it - the most common being (and we've seen this here) "god gave us this science and assistance with having children. if he didnt want us to have this science, he wouldnt have created it". my first thought when i hear that is "god allowed abortion to be created, but he sure as heck doesnt want us to use it!".

i think teh diocese had to make that formal statemetn, knowing that it would be all over the media that this was a catholic couple.

Riss91 · May 2011

I think the Church has to make a statement, but I usually think the statements are poorly worded and make the Church look bad. Plus, media will do anything it can to make the Church look bad anyway!

The whole "God created science" excuse is so tired. God created us and gave us the ability to determine right and wrong. He also tests us. And when we choose science over God's will, we have failed the test.

catarntina · May 2011

I don't really think the Church's message was poorly worded. To the Church, it is morally unacceptable to have IVF, especially when you know it goes against Church teaching.

I think it should also be known that 'Savage' is a very prominent name in the Toledo area. The Savage family donated a very large sum of money to the University of Toledo for a basketball stadium. The have councilwomen, etc in the city. Everyone knows who the Savages are. To me, they were throwing money at the situation.

"In their 16 years of marriage, the Savages have endured 20 ovarian stimulation cycles, 3 in vitro fertilizations (IVFs), 2 frozen embryo transfers, and 4 miscarriages in 12 years."

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2011/04/07/Couple-in-embryo-mixup-annouce.html

It's a shame they lost all those children, but I have trouble feeling sympathy for them. Instead of putting their trust and faith into God, they took it out of God's hands. On more than one occassion, apparently. How much does IVF cost? $10k for 1 treatment?

Calypso1977 · May 2011

yes, they went through extensive IVF. the one silver lining is that they always went to someone who did not believe in selective abortion. therefore, each time they were only implanted with 2-3 embryos. but of course, those were lost lives each time the pregnancy didnt take - or in the case of their daughter, only one took so she was a single birth rather than a twin birth.

their story was so baffling to me. they seem pretty devout, very involved with their church and HUGELY against abortion (thus their selective choice of IVF providers). yet, they chose IVF.

i cant help but wonder if deep down they knew it was inherently wrong, but were so overcome with the desire for a child that they blocked it out. being a person who is not desperate to be a parent, i just cant relate.

professorscience · May 2011

Yes, adoption is a wonderful option for the couples who decide it's right for them, but adoption should never be forced on anyone.

Adoption wasn't forced on them. They had two children naturally. I don't pretend for a second to know the mindset of someone who wants children and is unable, but seriously. God gifted you with two wonderful, beautiful children. Now return his kind favor by giving the gift of a family to some wonderful, beautiful, orphaned children.

Grr.

clearheavens · May 2011

From the article: "But to state that a child born of IVF is less perfect than a child created through sexual intercourse is absurd. Is the church truly claiming that our beautiful and innocent daughter, conceived through an IVF procedure, is somehow "less" because of how her physical life began? In her, Carolyn and I see God's precious creation."

The couple in the article is misinformed when they claim that the Church views their children as "less pefect." All human life, no matter the way they were conceived, are equal. All children are created in the image of God.

Not a single one of us would be here if God did not will for us to exist. That doesn't mean God will us to use technologies that removes Him. But He allows us to use those technologies, which is beauty of free will that He gives us, even when free will is used to make wrong choices. But it is His will that as soon as sperm meets egg, even if it's in a petri dish, He is there to create an immortal soul.

The Church teaches that a child born of IVF is not "less perfect" than a child created through sexual intercourse. It's that every child deserves to be created through the loving union of sexual intercourse between husband and wife.

That's when some people ask, "What's the big deal, it's just sex?" Humanity's great dignity is found in our imaging of God. Love is our origin, vocation, and end. Human dignity demands that a child be conceived through the act of love that images God. This is the marital love and its defining expression is the embrace of husband and wife in one flesh.

I remind people who say that the Church is against sex, that on the contrary, it honors and upholds sex to the greatest dignity.

There are other reasons why IVF is an immoral no matter the circumstance or motive. This is just one point I decided to single out from the article. Every lady on this board would recommend reading books on Theology of the Body by Christopher West for more info.

rombacja · May 2011

clearheavens - to your point, I think the church does believe that all lives are equal, HOWEVER it does not surprise me that the couple were either told or led to believe that their child is less perfect than naturally conceived children. I've heard a priest call IVF babies "not made in God's image and likeness" during a homily. Perhaps it's a scare tactic. Tell people God doesn't love IVF children and then maybe people won't do it.

Riss91 · May 2011

That disgusts me that priests make such statements. It's those type of statements that discredit the faith to the outside world.

doctabroccoli · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_interesting-opinion-piece-ivf-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8bbfebbe-181c-4c86-b664-cf292055b66fPost:ba8c4ca0-01bb-48d3-b85e-67f844ed89be">Re: Interesting Opinion Piece on IVF and the church</a>:
[QUOTE]That disgusts me that priests make such statements. It's those type of statements that discredit the faith to the outside world.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

I completely agree.

As a side note, my view on this whole situation (and life in general) is that people can do what they want with their own lives, and I will not judge them for their decisions.

mica178 · May 2011

rombaja -- wow, that's just wrong. I can't imagine a priest using scare tactics like that, and I hope I never encounter it. There are reasons why the church is against IVF, but the way to teach the congregation is through loving explanation and opportunity for discussion, not through lies and fear.

rombacja · May 2011

Completely agree with everything said above. It is disheartening to hear priests give their opinions during sermons and try to pass them off as doctrine. It is those kinds of statements that push people away from Catholicism.

bibliophile2010 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_interesting-opinion-piece-ivf-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8bbfebbe-181c-4c86-b664-cf292055b66fPost:d3b77e5c-416b-4cf4-a911-eb65e1381c29">Re: Interesting Opinion Piece on IVF and the church</a>:
[QUOTE]rombaja -- wow, that's just wrong. I can't imagine a priest using scare tactics like that, and I hope I never encounter it. There are reasons why the church is against IVF, but the way to teach the congregation is through loving explanation and opportunity for discussion, not through lies and fear.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

This.

monkeysip · May 2011

I ditto pretty much all the PPs... I really disagreed with this article, although of course I feel bad for any couple that struggles with infertility.

I'm not married yet, but I have huge maternal instincts. I really want lots of babies, and I can't wait to be pregnant, breastfeed, all of that.

But I also am dying to adopt. And not just infants, but older children. I made the mistake of going to a website that actually shows pictures and gives the bios for older children who need foster or adoptive parents in my area. I got through 3 photos before I almost burst out crying. I couldn't stand the idea that these beautiful children... of all ages and races... would grow up without a family. And most of them will. I wanted to adopt them all right now.

I know that if I have fertility problems, I'll really miss the ability to have my own kids and do the pregnancy thing. But I will also feel like God is specifically calling me to adopt. I'm not saying adoption is for everyone. But I feel like society doesn't currently promote adoption as much as it should. And here people are, speding thousands of dollars to artificially create new children in a petri dish when there are so many kids who will never have homes... and 4,000 babies aborted every day. *Sigh*

MopsieB · May 2011

I do not think the Church should change its stance on this at all. IVF, fertility treatments, sperm donation, egg donation, surrogate mothers ALL fly in the face of God's will for us. One could argue that we routinely accept other forms of "artificial" interference, such as bypass surgery or tumor removal, but the big difference in those is that we are SAVING lives with these actions, not attempting to CREATE it. Only God creates life. For us to try is to completely disregard God's intentions for us. What troubles me most about contemporary society is that the focus seems simply to be on what people "want" as opposed to making the most of what they already have. We probably won't have children. We're open to it, but we're not planning on it. I don't personally believe that God expects everyone to have children. As it is, the world is overpopulated and underfed. Fertility treatments are not good for women. You should not force your body into something God did not intend for you. If it is meant to happen, it will and if it isn't, then you are meant to do something else with your life. Why can't anyone be happy anymore for being who they are?

agapecarrie · May 2011

overpopulation is a myth. http://overpopulationisamyth.com/

but to the original subject...its the other side of the coin.

Babies without sex (ivf)
Sex without babies (contraception)

caitriona87 · May 2011

See also:

http://pop.org/about/faq

as well as the documentary Demographic Winter.

Starvation almost always comes as a result of despotic goverments and has nothing to do with food production. Look at the massive amounts of food (and clothes/furniture/what have you) we throw away in the West.

"The bread which you hold back belongs to the hungry; the coat, which you guard in your locked storage-chests, belongs to the naked; the footwear mouldering in your closet belongs to those without shoes. The silver that you keep hidden in a safe place belongs to the one in need." St Basil

ootmother2 · May 2011

You ladies may all enjoy overhashing this particular couple to death, but have you ever had to sit through dinner with 6 jesuits and a lector of the church, and his date(me)?

If I do survive and don't say anything that gets me tossed out, I will tell you alll I learn on Mondy night

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