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Jewish Weddings

Ketubah approval

Just a bit of background before I get to my concern/question:My shul is affiliated conservative, though in practive in is quite Orthodox - not regarding seating but certainly as far as those allowed to be on the bimah, reading the Torah, etc.We have a good relationship with our rabbi, who was raised Orthodox but certainly came to the shul with an idea in mind of wanting to do things differently and the synagogue at that point had the Conservative affiliation for at least two+ years.I recently sent him a link of the ketubah we like (which we'll get no matter what), and potential language.  He emailed back that it was unacceptable because it was egalitarian.  I didn't see that being the case when I reread it, but okay.  I emailed back and said that I'd be okay with the Hebrew being the traditional Aramaic - after all, neither of us read Hebrew that well and really, we'd only see it as part of tradition.  Our main concern would be the English, as this is what we'll see everyday and what is more meaningful for us.  I've been urging that we need to sit down to start talking about the wedding, just in case we hit some snafus (such as this).  Perhaps this will get the ball rolling.  But I have to say I was a bit disappointed, as I wasn't expecting him to shoot down the language.Just curious if anyone else ever had any initial problems regarding their ketubah.  I'm sure we'll come up with something suitable to all of us; as long as I get the English text that not so one-sided sounding, I'm okay with everything else.I only hope there aren't any other issues, like needing to do certain ceremonial things that neither of us intend to do (FI doesn't want to wear a kittel, but would be okay if he had to wear his tallit, etc.).  Glad I still have a few months to plan.  :)

Re: Ketubah approval

  • RachiemooRachiemoo member
    Tenth Anniversary 500 Comments Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    Just thought I'd give you my experience: Our Rabbi is conservative, though on the more traditional end. We had the orthodox aramaic text with the addition of the Lieberman clause (this is what the Rabbi was comfortable with - he actually required the Lieberman clause). We only had like one or two lines at the bottom in English, we did not have a complete English translation at all. It is my understanding that as long as the Aramaic is okay then what the English says does not really matter - but I'm not a Rabbi so don't quote me on this. If your Rabbi is not okay with an Egalitarian "translation" in English, maybe you could have two Ketubahs, one with the traditional aramaic and another with whatever translation you choose. (btw - you wouldn't need to buy two expensive ketubot, you could easily just have a very plain one for the aramaic and then a nicer one with the english). Good luck on working it out!
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  • edited December 2011
    Thanks Rachel, I'm glad that to hear it worked out for you.  I realized that the Hebrew portion I sent, though Conservative, I guess was problematic for our Rabbi.  It's just strange to consider yourself "Conservative" and yet want the Orthodox Aramaic text.  But I'd be okay with that so long as the English is more to our liking.  If this is the only issue we have, then it should be a good wedding.  I guess I didn't think this would be a big deal so I'm hoping now that there won't be any other wedding snafus I hadn't thought of.  :)Btw, I met Steve of Main Event last week and it went great.  I hope the food and service is just as good; just talking about the menu had me salivating!
  • RachiemooRachiemoo member
    Tenth Anniversary 500 Comments Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    Steve is a funny guy! Don't worry I'm sure the food and service will be amazing! What did you decide to do for the main course choices?
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  • silversparkssilversparks member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    We had a very traditional Conservative wedding. We opted for the traditional Aramaic text with an egalitarian English "translation" which was just fine for our rabbi. Many Conservative rabbis will not officiate without a Lieberman clause in the ketubah, or the signing of a separate "tanaim" ("conditional") document where the groom guarantees he will give you a get (though obviously we hope you'll never need one!) You absolutely MUST get your ketubah text checked by the rabbi - what the ketubah companies label according to denomination may very likely be unacceptable/incorrect (our rabbi told us stories of having to call ketubah companies to tell them what the text of the Lieberman clause actually is).Absolutely sit down with your rabbi ASAP to discuss other potential snafus: kosher reception requirements? who's giving or receiving rings? men and women sayin sheva brachot? Wearing a kittel or tallit is only a tradition, so I doubt your rabbi will have a halachic issue, but it doesn't hurt to ask...
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  • edited December 2011
    Not only is he funny, I just felt I had good rapport with him from the get-go.  We were on the same page and he listened to all my ideas and had great suggestions to make. Ultimately, it made more sense to go with the duet dish - who doesn't love meat - and have a fish and vegetarian option for those that would want it.  Very relaxing meeting; he certainly made me the most exciting for the reception so far! 
  • RachiemooRachiemoo member
    Tenth Anniversary 500 Comments Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    glad you went with the duet... i love meat!!! :D
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  • MoFreeMoFree member
    Seventh Anniversary 10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Can I just ask why "egalitarian" is a bad thing and would prevent a rabbi from approving a ketubah?
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  • RachiemooRachiemoo member
    Tenth Anniversary 500 Comments Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    MoFree - because the [Orthodox] Ketubah is about the responsibilities of the Groom to the Bride and not visa versa.
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  • MoFreeMoFree member
    Seventh Anniversary 10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    It's odd that egalitarian to me is a very positive thing but not so to some people in certain situations.
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  • RachiemooRachiemoo member
    Tenth Anniversary 500 Comments Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    MoFree (and anyone else looking for an interesting read about Women in [traditional/orthodox] Judaism) - I've been reading this book which was given to me by a convert who read it as part of her prep for converstion and I think you might find it useful in answering a lot of questions you've been posting. Its called To Be A Jewish Woman by Lisa Aiken http://www.amazon.com/Be-Jewish-Woman-Lisa-Aiken/dp/1568211538
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  • edited December 2011
    For me, I just found the dichotomy strange given that my shul is Conservative and while on the traditional side, we do talk often about balancing the roles of women.  I didn't expect my rabbi to have an issue with the text choice I presented. Again, for me, if the only requirement is that it be in the traditional Aramaic language but I can have the English as chosen, then I'm okay with that.  The reality is, at least for us, it's just tradition.  Last I checked, no dowry or other money was exchanged, etc. 
  • edited December 2011
    I definitely had issues with our Ketubah wording.  I grew up reform, but FI is not Jewish.  he is basically not religious at all.  So we are having a (somewhat) traditional Jewish wedding.  Our Rabbi would not even allow any egalitarian language.  We had to use a secular humanistic language.  I wasn't too happy about it.  In the end, i'm okay with the wording, but not what i really preferred.  It can be frustrating, but maybe you can talk to him about how you really feel about it so he understands.
  • edited December 2011
    Thanks Amy and everyone for your views.  This was the second time I emailed requesting that we come up with a time when we can all meet to discuss wedding plans.  Perhaps because his family and hers planned their wedding, he doesn't realize that there are time constraits at play.  I have times and other things in mind, and I'd like to meet as soon as possible, especially if we are going to run into difficulties. I told him that I'm okay with the traditional Aramaic but want the English as we see it reflects our views.  If, after we meet, this is our only sticking point, then if we have to we'll have to ketubahs, with the one I want being the expensive one and the one we'll display in our home. My shul has lots of issues going on right now and although we are affiliated Conservative, the identity of the shul is far from known to even its own members.  I know you should pick your battles but this is my wedding and ketubah and if I am willing to be flexible on the Aramaic, I don't see why he can't on the English.  Certainly, he doesn't even need to sign the English portion - if that's an issue, I'll just remove a rabbi line from that side of the ketubah. I may see him tonight on an unrelated matter; I know the holidays are pretty much here, but I want the wedding details to be close to done by the middle of January (certainly the time line anyway, as I have to finalize my invitations and go over planning with my vendors).  Ugh, weddings are stressful enough; I hope this is the only snafu we are going to encounter.  FI and I are certainly not doing other traditional aspects, so if that's an issue too, we may just have to find another rabbi to come into our shul for our wedding (can you imagine that).  :)
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