Let's talk about senseless violence

lalaith50 · December 2012

When did human life become worth so little?

I think everything is all tied up with the increasing lack of commonly accepted "morality" in our country... acceptance of birth control, abortion, assisted suicide, constant violence on tv and video games numbing our experience of violence....

I keep thinking about this thread that I saw recently on (ahem, another) wedding board, and the question was something like, "If you were in a burning building and could only save EITHER your beloved dog/cat/whatever, OR your friend's infant, which would you save?" And no less than 1/4 of the people said they would save the ANIMAL. Disgusting. Some of the responses were soooo upsetting, ("But my animal IS my 'baby'...", "Babies are just so annoying... it could grow up to be a terrible person, but my animal never will.") I can't believe I live in the same world as some of these people. But I think it's all tied together.... Another school shooting should come as no shock when so many people don't even value the life of an innocent baby. (I'm sure that 100% of those saying they would save the animal have no problem with abortion, but I digress...)

Calypso1977 · December 2012

wow, everyone close to me knows ive pretty much humanized my cat to the point of absurdity, but even id pick the infant over the cat. also from a pure logical standpoint the cat may very well survive and/or find its way out on its own. an infant cant walk on its own.

Riss91 · December 2012

We just need more love in this world. We all need to be more loving and caring towards one another.

s-aries8990 · December 2012

I'm more upset about the shooting in Sandy Hook, CT

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/sandy-hook-elementary-school-shooting_n_2300831.html

and the stabbing in China

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school.html

Hypotheicals are terrible, as are frivilous abortions and the acceptance of violent video games, but when a child is here today and gone tomorrow because of some mad man, that is a more pressing issue.

Riss91 · December 2012

syd... I am pretty sure lala started this thread in response to these awful attacks. She just referenced other related topics as well....

s-aries8990 · December 2012

Oh, it's just been blowing up all of my feeds and when I didn't see it referenced in the OP I thought it was an unrelated rant.

I didn't even get through to the bottom.

Riss91 · December 2012

no worries! I see your from CT... I'm not far from Newtown myself. I hope and pray everyone you know is safe!

s-aries8990 · December 2012

I'm actually from MA, but signed up for TK when I was at school in CT- I know people from the town and have so many connections there. For miles that's all thats on my FB & twitter accounts. It's terrible

chelseamb11 · December 2012

As a teacher, this is my absolute worst nightmare. I can't even imagine what it would be like.

Those people that would save their pet over a human are disgusting. It scares me how numb our society has become to violence.

All I keep thinking after this shooting is what would I do in this situation now? Before I got pregnant, of course I would throw myself between a gun and any one of my students. But now what? I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing I let a student die so my baby could live. But I can't even imagine killing my baby so a student could live.

Which is a really stupid way to be reacting to this, I know.

Ciardasully · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:3347fe76-b80e-494c-a2ac-85568548e184">Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]When did human life become worth so little? I think everything is all tied up with the increasing lack of commonly accepted "morality" in our country... acceptance of birth control, abortion, assisted suicide, constant violence on tv and video games numbing our experience of violence.... I keep thinking about this thread that I saw recently on (ahem, another) wedding board, and the question was something like, "If you were in a burning building and could only save EITHER your beloved dog/cat/whatever, OR your friend's infant, which would you save?" And no less than 1/4 of the people said they would save the ANIMAL. Disgusting. Some of the responses were soooo upsetting, ("But my animal IS my 'baby'...", "Babies are just so annoying... it could grow up to be a terrible person, but my animal never will.") I can't believe I live in the same world as some of these people. But I think it's all tied together.... Another school shooting should come as no shock when so many people don't even value the life of an innocent baby. (I'm sure that 100% of those saying they would save the animal have no problem with abortion, but I digress...)
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

I really don't like this question because I would want to save both and if I could only save one, I would agonize and never forgive not saving the other one. But I do think there is a link to the fact that we allow abortion and that we allow so many animals to get killed in shelters because as a whole, society doesn't care about life in general. And seeing things happen like that today doesn't have me optimistic.

femme55 · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:3347fe76-b80e-494c-a2ac-85568548e184">Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]When did human life become worth so little? I think everything is all tied up with the increasing lack of commonly accepted "morality" in our country... acceptance of birth control, abortion, assisted suicide, constant violence on tv and video games numbing our experience of violence.... I keep thinking about this thread that I saw recently on (ahem, another) wedding board, and the question was something like, "If you were in a burning building and could only save EITHER your beloved dog/cat/whatever, OR your friend's infant, which would you save?" And no less than 1/4 of the people said they would save the ANIMAL. Disgusting. Some of the responses were soooo upsetting, ("But my animal IS my 'baby'...", "Babies are just so annoying... it could grow up to be a terrible person, but my animal never will.") I can't believe I live in the same world as some of these people. But I think it's all tied together.... Another school shooting should come as no shock when so many people don't even value the life of an innocent baby. (I'm sure that 100% of those saying they would save the animal have no problem with abortion, but I digress...)
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

Actually it's true that a lot of people that want to save animals are okay with abortion (at varying stages), the logic being that animals are sentient beings (also god's creatures) who feel pain and fear, whereas a fetus (depending on where it is in development) does not feel pain and has no psychological awareness of fear. It is not a religious consideration of which has a soul, but rather, a very practical and empathetic consideration of which will suffer more.

Please don't lump together people who want to save animals and use birth control with homicidal maniacs like the evil person who killed all those people in CT. I bet a lot of those people you think don't value life because they use bc and/or want to save animals are the same people who volunteer at homeless and domestic violence shelters and tutor underprivileged kids.. A lot of my liberal (i.e. pro choice, pro birth control) friends were the people climbing 10-20 flights of stairs in power-less apartment buildings to bring meals to stranded senior citizens during hurricane sandy. I think if you could get past certain political issue labels you could find a lot of common sentiment among people along different portions of the poltiical and religious spectrum.

agapecarrie · December 2012

I don't think it's about lumping people together. It's about the slippery slope of morality. The rampant embracing of bc and abortion is the disregarding of the dignity of human life. And forgetting the sacredness of the source because the act is desecrated. And to say that abortion is a political issue one can get past is extremely offensive to me as I was mercifully spared from it by my birth mother.

femme55 · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:ee57bfaf-2b3f-4935-87ae-d1a8b33eaff3">Re:Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think it's about lumping people together. It's about the slippery slope of morality. The rampant embracing of bc and abortion is the disregarding of the dignity of human life. And forgetting the sacredness of the source because the act is desecrated. And to say that abortion is a political issue one can get past is extremely offensive to me as I was mercifully spared from it by my birth mother.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Preventing a life from coming into existence by using bc does not create a slipperly slope to the taking of existing sentient life. And I'm sure there are many women who already have as many children as they can care for who think that using bc honors and values the existing lives for which they are already responsible.

I meant abortion is a political issue one should look past in terms of not automatically demonizing people who may not be opposed to it. What happened to not judging people without knowing their souls? FWIW, I have a friend given up for adoption by her birth mother who is adamantly pro-choice.

agapecarrie · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:4c77bc1f-97d1-4efb-9a11-23614cd19e5b">Re:Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Let's talk about senseless violence : Preventing a life from coming into existence by using bc does not create a slipperly slope to the taking of existing sentient life. And I'm sure there are many women who already have as many children as they can care for who think that using bc honors and values the existing lives for which they are already responsible. I meant abortion is a political issue one should look past in terms of not automatically demonizing people who may not be opposed to it. What happened to not judging people without knowing their souls? FWIW, I have a friend given up for adoption by her birth mother who is adamantly pro-choice.
Posted by femme55@hotmail.com[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>BC most certainly does create a slippery slope. You can see all of this predicted humae vitae. People have lost the value of life because they've lost the value of the source of life, and desecrating the act that creates life. Read Humane Vitae. it's there...it couldn't be more clear.</div><div>
</div><div>This has nothing to do with judgement of a person, nor knowing souls. It's impossible to know souls, and I'm not sure why that was brought up.</div><div>
</div><div>Moral actions MUST be judged...this is scriptural. And I take it extremely personally from anyone that believes abortion is ok, becuase they are arguing for my murder.

</div>

femme55 · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:a55bbefe-ab26-41d9-80b5-cd2ffe67ae4f">Re:Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Let's talk about senseless violence : BC most certainly does create a slippery slope. You can see all of this predicted humae vitae. People have lost the value of life because they've lost the value of the source of life, and desecrating the act that creates life. Read Humane Vitae. it's there...it couldn't be more clear. This has nothing to do with judgement of a person, nor knowing souls. It's impossible to know souls, and I'm not sure why that was brought up. Moral actions MUST be judged...this is scriptural. And I take it extremely personally from anyone that believes abortion is ok, becuase they are arguing for my murder.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Well I'd like to just to point out the many countries in Western Europe and Scandanavia, for example, where the rates of bc use are very high but the rates of violent crimes are very low. So I do not think that societal use or acceptance of birth control contributes to a violent society. Whether it is against church teaching is a separate issue.

chelseamb11 · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:0d12114c-d9c2-453c-a38c-8478657501e2">Re:Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Let's talk about senseless violence : Well I'd like to just to point out the many countries in Western Europe and Scandanavia, for example, where the rates of bc use are very high but the rates of violent crimes are very low. So I do not think that societal use or acceptance of birth control contributes to a violent society. Whether it is against church teaching is a separate issue.
Posted by femme55@hotmail.com[/QUOTE]

Correlation does not mean causation in the least. I've read studies that show the exact opposite (that birth control leads to a more violent society)
More BC = More Sex
More Sex = More Babies
More Babies = More unwanted babies
More unwanted babies= more abortions
Abortion= one of the most vile and violent things on this planet
There is nothing more disgusting to me than the thought of dismembering an innocent baby in order to kill it just so you can live the lifestyle you want (general you, not you specifically)

For the record femme, you stated awhile ago that fetuses cannot feel pain, but that is not true. My baby will start to be able to feel pain in the next few weeks actually. It has been scientifcally proven. You touch a fetus's foot, it recoils. It most definitely feels.

Just like agape mentioned, when you throw birth control into the mix, you are already disrepecting the sacredness of life. And a woman who takes birth control is MUUUCH more likely to have an abortion than one who does not (funny logic isn't it?)

femme55 · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:733c4f25-054e-4d10-9b9a-9fe20fb6eb95">Re:Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE] I've read studies that show the exact opposite (that birth control leads to a more violent society) More BC = More Sex More Sex = More Babies More Babies = More unwanted babies More unwanted babies= more abortions Abortion[/QUOTE]

More bc may or may not cause more sex, but it does not cause more pregnancies/abortions because effectively used birth control prevents conception, as is its purpose!

<a rel="nofollow" href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/10/04/free-birth-control-access-can-reduce-abortion-rate-by-more-than-half/">http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/10/04/free-birth-control-access-can-reduce-abortion-rate-by-more-than-half/</a>

<p>For the study, Peipert and his colleagues recruited 9,256 women and adolescent girls, aged 14 to 45, in the St. Louis area who were at particular risk for unintended pregnancies and who <a rel="nofollow" href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/context-and-variation/2011/10/17/lbolj-plan-b/"><u><font color="#0066cc">wanted to avoid pregnancy</font></u></a> for at least a year. Those who opted to participate in the three-year study had the choice of either shorter-acting methods, such as pills, vaginal rings or patches or long-acting reversible methods, such as intrauterine devices (IUDs) or implants. The IUDs consist of a small T-shaped device that is inserted into the uterus, and the implant is a thin plastic strip that is inserted under the skin of the upper arm; both require insertion in the doctor’s office. Study participants received their chosen method (with the option to change methods) at no cost. After learning about the risks and benefits of all types, 75 percent of the women chose the longer-acting IUDs and implants (particularly because of their low failure rate and not having to rely on regular adherence and need to seek replacements).</p><p><strong>Abortion rates among study participants were below 7.6 per 1,000—less than half of the national rate of 19.6 per 1,000—even though the study participants were considered to be at higher risk than the general population. These rates suggest that the same free birth control options available nation wide would prevent one abortion for every 137 or fewer women and teens who participated, say the researchers.

</strong>As for when a fetus feels pain (i didn't say it never did, but rather it depended where it was in development), I believe the consensus is at the 7-month mark. I believe abortion in thr 3rd trimenster is illegal in every state except for the life/health of the mother.

<a rel="nofollow" href="http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain#.UM0ZJW872Ag">http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain#.UM0ZJW872Ag</a>

<span style="widows:2;text-transform:none;text-indent:0px;display:inline !important;font:15px/21px Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif;white-space:normal;orphans:2;letter-spacing:normal;color:#000000;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-size-adjust:auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;">Fetuses cannot feel pain until at least the 28th week of gestation because they haven't formed the necessary nerve pathways, says Mark Rosen, an obstetrical anesthesiologist at the University of California at San Francisco.<span class="Apple-converted-space">

<font face="Arial" size="2" color="#1f1f1f">I am just trying to throw out some evidence for understanding other people's perspectives. I think demonizing a large percentage of the female population (bc users), many of whom are devout within their own faiths and wouldn't dream of harming another person, is not productive or rational.</font>

</span></span></p>

agapecarrie · December 2012

ALL hormonal contraceptives are abortive. All of them.

NFP has an extremely higher success rate of avoiding pregnangy than any kind of birth control.

First, bc stats are way skewed, as most of the time, a woman isn't fertile, and would not have gotten pregnant anyway, so bc is getting credit for preventing pregnancy when one wouldn't have happened in the first place.

2nd, since all hormona bc are abortive, many conceptions that happen from bc failure are not even known about, as they die early on in the womb

3rd, when one follows the logic of what abc is actually doing-- it is an extremely offensive act against the human person and their dignity. It is merely using rather than self gift.

You keep saying people are being "demonized". That is not happening here, that is hyperbole. No one is being demonized. But hailing mortally sinful actions as somehow heroic is most certainly not a good thing.

chelseamb11 · December 2012

Okay femme, then explain to me the video that I watched about fetal development the other day that literally showed an 8w (? I think) fetus recoil it's hand when touched with an instrument? If it doesn't have nerves, it wouldn't feel it.

BC is not helpful in the least for a few reasons. 1) it is not100% effective. 2) People are MUCH more likely to have sex before they should because they assume they won't get pregnant. 8 out of every 100 people taking BC who are sexually active will get pregnant within a year. 3) There was an alarming statistic out there (i'll have to find it) of the number of women who take BC but not correctly, which then makes it useless.

I lost my virginity way too young. My HS boyfriend and I had to be SOOO sneaky about it because my parents were really strict. That is why I went to PP and went on the pill. I can guarantee you that if I hadn't had access to that, I wouldn't have had sex with him. The pill was my "safety net".

The CDC published a report in 2010 that said:
Contraceptive use in the United States is virtually universal among women of reproductive age… But that does not mean that contraceptive use in the United States is completely consistent or effective. One-half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended, and the average probability of an unintended pregnancy in 12 months of contraceptive use in the United States is 12%, unchanged from 1995.One half? How many women in this statistic do you think might have abstained if they didn't assume their birth control would keep them from getting pregnant.
I promise you I am not demonizing BC users. It is not up to me to judge. It is just such an inherently evil thing when you realy think about it. Birth control has created the allusion that sex doesn't need to have a purpose and that you should get sex where and when you want.

So back to my analogy before. I stand by it.

Sex creates babies. I think we all can agree on that.
1. More BC=More sex (it's just true.. if there was ZERO way to prevent pregnancy other than abstinence, people would be much more careful and aware with their sexuality.
2. More sex=More babies. It goes without saying.
3. More babies=more unwanted babies=more abortions. When a woman takes birth control, she already has it figured in her mind she does not want a baby. She is MUCH more likely to have an abortion if she were to conceive.

If we go back to the original culprit, BC, we can see that it has created a society void of taking responsibility. Our society is OBSESSED with sex. You can't watch a set of commercials without even one or two commercials that tries to use sex to sell. BC makes sex on demand and takes away its sacredness.

lalaith50 · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:18af947a-cc56-4763-9fc1-5865d9f398e2">Re: Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Let's talk about senseless violence : Actually it's true that a lot of people that want to save animals are okay with abortion (at varying stages), the logic being that animals are sentient beings (also god's creatures) who feel pain and fear, whereas a fetus (depending on where it is in development) does not feel pain and has no psychological awareness of fear. It is not a religious consideration of which has a soul, but rather, a very practical and empathetic consideration of which will suffer more. <strong>Please don't lump together people who want to save animals and use birth control with homicidal maniacs</strong> like the evil person who killed all those people in CT. I bet<strong> a lot of those people you think don't value life because they use bc</strong> and/or want to save animals are the same people who volunteer at homeless and domestic violence shelters and tutor underprivileged kids.. A lot of my liberal (i.e. pro choice, pro birth control) friends were the people climbing 10-20 flights of stairs in power-less apartment buildings to bring meals to stranded senior citizens during hurricane sandy. I think if you could get past certain political issue labels you could find a lot of common sentiment among people along different portions of the poltiical and religious spectrum.
Posted by femme55@hotmail.com[/QUOTE]<div>whoa, whoa, whoa. you are putting words and correlations in my mouth that I never said, and succeeded in turning this discussion into something that had nothing to do with the original question. ALL I said regarding birth control was that it's acceptance is one of the things in our society that demonstrates a <em>lack of morality. </em>NOWHERE did I equate BC users with homicidal maniacs, or even that people who use it don't value life! I do, however, think that people who use it are all some combination of selfish (eg, believing sex without consequences is a "right,") and naive (by thinking that BC "solves" problems instead of creating more- enabling irresponsible sex, enabling people to commit adultery or pre-marital sex without worry of unplanned embarrasing pregnancy, and not to mention the damage it does to the relationship when a married couple uses it and by using it, they are both "using" each other and it adds tension, disrespect, and mistrust to their relationship, etc, when in reality all of those actions are damaging to the human person and relationships, and our society is seeing the effects of how BC enables it with more and more unwed mothers, an incredibly high rate of divorce, etc.)

</div>

Chloeagh · December 2012

I'm not disagreeing that birth control does give people a pass to have sex earlier, because it definitely does. But I think it's important to realize people are going to have sex and unintended pregnancies anyway. I had to read a book about abortion for a class and there was mention of a women who did not have access to birth control. Instead of not having sex, she had 13 illegal abortions. A newspaper article for my school from the 1980's said that over 25% of sexually active students at the school use withdrawl, the rhythm method, or no contraception at all. The statistics are lower, but still similar for today (and this is at a really nice liberal arts school that gives away free condoms).

femme55 · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:a930acac-1f65-497b-9f3e-aa03799ffdb1">Re: Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>Okay femme, then explain to me the video that I watched about fetal development the other day that literally showed an 8w (? I think) fetus recoil it's hand when touched with an instrument?</strong> If it doesn't have nerves, it wouldn't feel it. BC is not helpful in the least for a few reasons. 1) it is not100% effective. 2) People are MUCH more likely to have sex before they should because they assume they won't get pregnant. 8 out of every 100 people taking BC who are sexually active will get pregnant within a year. 3) There was an alarming statistic out there (i'll have to find it) of the number of women who take BC but not correctly, which then makes it useless. I lost my virginity way too young. My HS boyfriend and I had to be SOOO sneaky about it because my parents were really strict. That is why I went to PP and went on the pill. I can guarantee you that if I hadn't had access to that, I wouldn't have had sex with him. The pill was my "safety net". The CDC published a report in 2010 that said: Contraceptive use in the United States is virtually universal among women of reproductive age… But that does not mean that contraceptive use in the United States is completely consistent or effective. One-half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended, and the average probability of an unintended pregnancy in 12 months of contraceptive use in the United States is 12%, unchanged from 1995. One half? How many women in this statistic do you think might have abstained if they didn't assume their birth control would keep them from getting pregnant. I promise you I am not demonizing BC users. It is not up to me to judge. It is just such an inherently evil thing when you realy think about it. Birth control has created the allusion that sex doesn't need to have a purpose and that you should get sex where and when you want. So back to my analogy before. I stand by it. Sex creates babies. I think we all can agree on that. 1. More BC=More sex (it's just true.. if there was ZERO way to prevent pregnancy other than abstinence, people would be much more careful and aware with their sexuality. 2. More sex=More babies. It goes without saying. 3. More babies=more unwanted babies=more abortions. When a woman takes birth control, she already has it figured in her mind she does not want a baby. She is MUCH more likely to have an abortion if she were to conceive. If we go back to the original culprit, BC, we can see that it has created a society void of taking responsibility. Our society is OBSESSED with sex. You can't watch a set of commercials without even one or two commercials that tries to use sex to sell. BC makes sex on demand and takes away its sacredness.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

I don't have time to respond to all the points now, but as for the recoiling, it's explained by the doctor in the discovery link I provided--it's a reflex. For example if you poke an an amoeba in a petri dish it will change its shape and move but ameobas don't have nervous systems and feelings. Nervous systems in humans are advanced enough to feel at 7 months gestation.

agapecarrie · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:4c123f63-3d0b-403f-a370-a32a390732ee">Re: Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Let's talk about senseless violence : I don't have time to respond to all the points now, but as for the recoiling, it's explained by the doctor in the discovery link I provided--it's a reflex. For example if you poke an an amoeba in a petri dish it will change its shape and move but ameobas don't have nervous systems and feelings. Nervous systems in humans are advanced enough to feel at 7 months gestation.
Posted by femme55@hotmail.com[/QUOTE]

<div>This is proven false by the very fact that there have been babies born at 23 weeks survive outside the womb. That's less than 6 months. They can feel pain. </div>

s-aries8990 · December 2012

I must agree that, at least from what I see in the US, we have deviated from a structured, moral sense of self-discipline.

But, I also agree that correlation does not mean causation. Sure, Freakonomics reports that there was fewer recorded violent street crimes about 16-20 years after abortion was legalized, but that doens't mean that it was the cause. On the flipside, the legalization of abortion and the ubiquity of bc doesn't mean that those who use those options are intrinsically bad people or that getting rid of them will make this country better.

I know bible-thumping people that are terrible humans and bc-using atheists who have bleeding hearts and help causes whenever they can. As easy as it is to pigeon-hole people, we really shouldn't.

ETA: and as for things like last week, as difficult as it is, sometimes there is just no answer. It's not God, it's not the country, it's not the morals of the group, it's one person with problems and no rhyme or reason.

agapecarrie · December 2012

http://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=18371

shawna127 · December 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_lets-talk-about-senseless-violence-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:fc1acefd-8d47-4cfa-9339-cd6887ff9f8ePost:4c123f63-3d0b-403f-a370-a32a390732ee">Re: Let's talk about senseless violence</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Let's talk about senseless violence : I don't have time to respond to all the points now, but as for the recoiling, it's explained by the doctor in the discovery link I provided--it's a reflex. For example if you poke an an amoeba in a petri dish it will change its shape and move but ameobas don't have nervous systems and feelings. Nervous systems in humans are advanced enough to feel at 7 months gestation.
Posted by femme55@hotmail.com[/QUOTE]

Honestly, the argument that because the baby isn't fully developed, doesn't feel, isn't this far along, can't survive on it's own so it's not a real person never ever made sense to me. There are people who aren't in the womb who have these same problems yet we don't go and kill them. Has anyone ever looked into how holocausts start? They start by dehumanizing the target so that it makes it "okay" to kill them because they aren't human. The exact same thing was done with the jews in Nazi Germany. So the abortion holocaust really is nothing new and you would thing that us human beings would be smart enough to stop history from repeating itself. It's just so sad.

<span class="st">"A nation that kills it's own children is a nation without hope."--John Paul II

Also, just wanted to say that I wasn't saying that you believed this. I was just saying that argument in general makes me sick.</span>

Let's talk about senseless violence

Re: Let's talk about senseless violence

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