Tuesday Questions

Resa77 · March 2013

1. Have you ever been invited to a wedding that you didn't agree with, for reasons about the relationship/age/preparedness of the couple? Did you attend or not? How did you make your decision? Did you voice concerns to the couple?
2. Have you ever been invited to a wedding that you didn't agree with for specifically Catholic reasons (such as a Catholic marrying outside the Church, or a divorced person remarrying, etc)? Did you attend, and how did you decide? Did you voice concerns to the couple?

Feel free to add!

Resa77 · March 2013

1. Yes. I tried to voice concerns to my friends whose weddings I had hesitations on, but ultimately trusted their judgment. There was only ever one wedding that, by the time the day of the wedding rolled around, I was still uncomfortable with. I decided to attend, though, because I didn't want to totally end the friendship, and I knew boycotting the wedding would have done that.
2. This has actually never really happened to me, until now. I'm invited to the wedding of a baptized/confirmed Catholic marrying a non-Catholic Christian in an outdoor Protestant ceremony. The Catholic does not consider himself Catholic, so H says we can and should go. I'm intested in hearing how others have handled this kind of situation!

Calypso1977 · March 2013

resa, ive gone to weddings of catholics that were not recognized by the Church, but in all cases the individuals were Catholic in name only and not practicing. i honestly dont think ive gone to any second weddings tho but that's because i dont think ive ever been invited to any second weddings.

Resa77 · March 2013

So Calypso, you think it's prob okay to attend since the Catholic spouse says he's not Catholic? It's not even just a not practicing thing...he has directly said, in my presence, that he is not Catholic anymore. (He's a teenager, though, so I take it with a grain of salt)

agapecarrie · March 2013

Whether they say they are catholic or not isn't the issue. The marriage is still invalid, so, in essence, you are witneses a public statement of fornication-- a public act of turning away from the church. They don't think its so, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Whether you attend or not is up to you. If your attendance in any way encourages or gives them some sort of unspoken approval, than no. But if you go in order to keep communication open, so that possibly in the future you may have influence in their faith, then that is a judgement call.

You definitely can't be an official witness or participate in any way.

Resa77 · March 2013

Carrie -- can't you become not Catholic even though you were raised Catholic? That's something that always confuses me.

I don't really have a relationship with them, but H does, and he feels it would do serious damage for him not to go. So I'm kind of letting him make the call, since I'm more or less his "plus one."

erin5286 · March 2013

My older sister got married in an Episcopal church a few years ago (she is a baptized Catholic, her husband is a baptized Christian but I'm not sure what church). There was never a question in my mind of not attending or participating in the wedding, since it was my sister.

Riss91 · March 2013

It's a really tricky topic. If you know couples that are not chaste, are living together, don't consider themselves Catholic (eventhough they are baptized Catholic) - they are already "fornicating".... though they haven't publicly committed themselves to each other for the rest of their lives.

A baptized-Catholic-but-staunchly-Athiest friend was married by a JOP. She mentioned to me before the wedding that she wasn't "naive enough to think they'd never be divorced". I actually didn't think she was picking the right person to marry and I am surprised they aren't divorced yet. She is a best friend from childhood. I wasn't in her wedding, but I did attend. I almost felt like it was better that they weren't getting married in the Church, because if they do get divorced, they'll have a short-form annulment (if she seeks one). As I said, it's awful to think that way....

I do think there is merit in attending a wedding to maintain the relationship and allow the opportunity to help them spiritually going forward.

It's a tough decision to make, one that requires prayerful consideration of all the consequences.

professorscience · March 2013

1. Have you ever been invited to a wedding that you didn't agree with, for reasons about the relationship/age/preparedness of the couple? Did you attend or not? How did you make your decision? Did you voice concerns to the couple?

A friend of mine got married just before I did, and it was because she got pregnant. She insisted that she and her now-H had been talking about marriage before they got pregnant, but a couple of us were pretty worried because they hadn't really been together all that long. I didn't really have strong reservations because 1) she's a smart, independent woman who can make her own choices; and 2) she really did seem to know what she was doing and what she wanted. In the end, they have a beautiful son and they are a great couple.
2. Have you ever been invited to a wedding that you didn't agree with for specifically Catholic reasons (such as a Catholic marrying outside the Church, or a divorced person remarrying, etc)? Did you attend, and how did you decide? Did you voice concerns to the couple?

Nope, but I'm a pretty new Catholic, so I may have attended plenty of weddings that were not following proper form and never would have known.

Resa77 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_tuesday-questions-9?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:7430b5f0-26e3-4463-bb0a-5b7a56f0d05aPost:ee32ebbe-0dda-4b7c-b9c6-057159085557">Re: Tuesday Questions</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>Whether they say they are catholic or not isn't the issue</strong>. The marriage is still invalid, so, in essence, you are witneses a public statement of fornication-- a public act of turning away from the church. They don't think its so, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. Whether you attend or not is up to you. If your attendance in any way encourages or gives them some sort of unspoken approval, than no. But if you go in order to keep communication open, so that possibly in the future you may have influence in their faith, then that is a judgement call. You definitely can't be an official witness or participate in any way.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Just reread this...I'm confused. Non-Catholics aren't bound by canonical form, so if they aren't Catholic and are getting married by a Christian minister, why would the marriage still be invalid?

Tami87 · March 2013

1. I don't think I have ever been to a wedding where I did not think the couple should be getting married. Very few of my friends are married though as we were one of the first to get married in our circle. Only one that was kind of questionable was my college roommate just because they moved fast. They were engaged after about 6 months and married after a little less than a year of being together and she was kind of young at 21. At the time of their engagement I was 19 and though it was quick but since I hadn't been in a serious relationship myself I thought maybe when you know you just know. Now after being with H for almost 5 years before we got married, I think I would be more likely to encourage a friend to have a long engagement if she got engaged that soon after dating someone. By the way college friend and husband are still together with an adorable little boy 4.5 years later. Also now that I think of it, another one was my cousin who also got married young at age 19. I was 14 at the time and attended with my family so I didn't have much of an opinion about whether she should be getting married or not. The family overall thought she was young to be getting married but her parents got married at 18 and have a very happy marriage, so no one felt like they could say something to dissuade her based solely on age and we live far away so most had not even met her fiance before the wedding. Unfortunately my cousins marriage didn't last. I believe they divorced about 2 or 3 years later.

2. Have you ever been invited to a wedding that you didn't agree with for specifically Catholic reasons.

This is likely to come up with H's cousin (and best man) in the future. Currently he is really only Catholic in name. His girlfriend (who I really like) is Lutheran and he has actually talked to H about how the family will react if they get married in her church instead. Granny was already upset when she found out she wasn't Catholic so cousin isn't expected it to go well. H feels (and I agree with him) that at this point it would be wonderful if cousin started going to any church, so if girlfriend is stronger in her faith and cousin starts going to church with her its better than what he is doing right now. Also it seems disrespectful because the Catholic wedding would just be to please the family not because it is important to cousin or girlfriend. If cousin does get married we plan on attending and H will likely be in the wedding party. H feels it is more important to keep the close friendship with cousin and lead by example and hope that he eventually comes back to the faith. Not attending or refusing to be in the wedding would likely destroy the relationship.

monkeysip · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_tuesday-questions-9?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:7430b5f0-26e3-4463-bb0a-5b7a56f0d05aPost:a5edb41f-8fe0-4cb3-b234-0ba00b89698c">Re: Tuesday Questions</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tuesday Questions : Just reread this...I'm confused. Non-Catholics aren't bound by canonical form, so if they aren't Catholic and are getting married by a Christian minister, why would the marriage still be invalid?
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

Carrie can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she's talking about Catholics who say they're not Catholic anymore. You cannot "undo" your Catholic baptism, so once Catholic, always Catholic (and therefore, bound by canonical rules for marriage).

I don't think she's talking about non-Catholics, who are obviously not bound to follow form.

Calypso1977 · March 2013

So Calypso, you think it's prob okay to attend since the Catholic spouse says he's not Catholic? It's not even just a not practicing thing...he has directly said, in my presence, that he is not Catholic anymore. (He's a teenager, though, so I take it with a grain of salt)

technically its probably not, for the reasons agape mentioned and technically, once a catholic always a catholic, but if this person truly has fallen away and isnt practicing, then i actualy wouldnt want to see in get married in a catholic church becuase he obviously wouldnt be living up to his vows. he really has no where else to get married then. so id still say its ok to go.

althoguh the fact that he's a teenager concerns me more....so young to get married!

Resa77 · March 2013

I know! I actually know quiite a few AWESOME couples who got married very young (like, 21 and younger), so I'm not someone who just right off the bat is anti-young marriage. But if you ACT like a teenager, that's a problem. This couple really does.

Resa77 · March 2013

Monkey, gotcha. I was always under the impression that there's a difference between not practicing vs denouncing the faith. If you aren't practicing, you're still Catholic, but if you actually denounce the faith, then you are no longer considered Catholic.

monkeysip · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_tuesday-questions-9?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:7430b5f0-26e3-4463-bb0a-5b7a56f0d05aPost:7f6f01b4-b53a-42ad-a84a-560a9738aadb">Re: Tuesday Questions</a>:
[QUOTE]Monkey, gotcha. I was always under the impression that there's a difference between not practicing vs denouncing the faith. If you aren't practicing, you're still Catholic, but if you actually denounce the faith, then you are no longer considered Catholic.
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

Again, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was no way to officially denounce the faith.

I agree with Calypso though that it does put you in a difficult situation since that person shouldn't be getting married in a Catholic Church in their current status, but they technically shouldn't marry outside of the Church either. *shrug*

lalaith50 · March 2013

yes, for the past couple years (since I've been thinking about this,) I still haven't been able to come to terms with the "Catholic who doesn't want to be Catholic" and where they should get married. It seems to me like they can't win. I'll be offended if they get married in a Catholic Church, since they probably have a completely different understanding of marriage than the Church does, and yet I'm not supposed to go to their wedding if it's outside the Church? Makes no sense to me, and I've even talked about it with a couple of priests.

That ties into my answer for the second question (for the first question, I can't say that I ever have,) but for the second question, for me it's illustrated by two cousins of DH's that got married last fall: One of them got married in a Catholic Church, but as far as we know doesn't practice and has no intention of practicing, and the other got married outside, and certainly doesn't even consider herself Catholic. We felt MUCH more uncomfortable at the wedding in the church! It's a tough situation, but at no time did we consider *not* going to the outdoor wedding - how would that have helped anything? They neither would have cared, nor changed their plans, knowing that we didn't consider their wedding a "marriage." (They'd long been living together.)

agapecarrie · March 2013

A catholic cannot formerly (or informally) denounce the faith. Once a catholic, always a catholic and bound by canonical form.

About them getting married in the church-- that's what marriage prep is for-- ideally, it should be evangelistic and impress upon them the importance of the promises they make. Like in Baptism, one should have a hope that the graces will work at some point and it be something to bring them back.

Resa77 · March 2013

Lalaith, that's very much how I feel. How can we say "you have to get married in the Church or else I won't go" and at the same time say "if you get married in the Catholic Church I won't go" They can't win. I think it's especially "unfair" for someone who was baptised Catholic, but wasn't really raised Catholic. It's hard to say "oh, I can't go to your wedding, because you told me once that you were baptised Catholic...but I can go to our mutual friend's JOP wedding, because she's not Catholic." I can't imagine that ever going over well!

Chloeagh · March 2013

This is really interesting to read. I've never been in a situation where I felt I shouldn't attend the wedding or I disagreed with the marriage. And I'm glad, because it sounds like a really tough position to be in. I know I've been to weddings that aren't valid (I can think of many family weddings off the top of my head where at least one spouse was confirmed Catholic, left the chuch, and had the wedding outside), but I was very young and I was not raised Catholic. But even if it was today, it's not like I'm going to tell my parents that I won't attend their wedding!

monkeysip · March 2013

I've had two weddings that I questioned since I became Catholic.

The first was FI's brother, who married a woman baptized Catholic but non-practicing. They had a JOP wedding, then a casual reception a few weeks later. We felt a little weird about it, but went since it's his brother and not going would cause a lot more problems than going, and we didn't say anything since honestly he's not that close to his brother.

The second was a friend of mine from grad school. She married a non-Catholic in a protestant ceremony because she didn't want to agree to let him raise the children Catholic. I felt uncomfortable going, and since she and I weren't that close, I didn't. I didn't say anything though since, again, we weren't that close.

I wasn't Catholic at the time, but I also attended my dad's most recent wedding. Even though he's protestant, I'm assuming it wouldn't be valid since it's a remarriage (presuming his marriage to my mother was valid). And he married a divorced Catholic woman (now my stepmom) outside the Church. So, a lot wrong with that marriage, but it's hard to say anything when it's your dad (Whom I'm not that close with), and I do like my stepmom a lot.

In a conversation with my dad, however, he said that she may have been able to get an annulment, but she didn't want to "nullify" her children. I tried to explain that that's not what annulment does, but I don't know if he ever talked to her about it.

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