annoyed with the knot's advice

LeeJane25 · August 2010

I'm annoyed with the etiquette advice I've found on the knot and other sites that say one should NOT include a deceased parent's name on a wedding invitation. WTF is that? I understand that that is not what's normally done, but that doesn't mean it's improper to do it. Whoever writes these articles clearly does not have a deceased parent. I think it's perfectly appropriate to include (and honor!) the parent by writing, "the late" before their name on the invite -- I saw this advice on one of the web sites I found while researching this topic.

People's feelings and a couple's unique situation should come before etiquette rules, I think.

kathrynhabibti · August 2010

[QUOTE]I'm annoyed with the etiquette advice I've found on the knot and other sites that say one should NOT include a deceased parent's name on a wedding invitation. WTF is that? I understand that that is not what's normally done, but that doesn't mean it's improper to do it. Whoever writes these articles clearly does not have a deceased parent. I think it's perfectly appropriate to include (and honor!) the parent by writing, "the late" before their name on the invite -- I saw this advice on one of the web sites I found while researching this topic. People's feelings and a couple's unique situation should come before etiquette rules, I think.
Posted by LeeJane25[/QUOTE]

Hmm. Which part of the invite are you referring to? If the it's "Mr or Mrs Bride's Parent requests...." part then that makes sense that you can't include them there, as deceased people cannot host.

kathrynhabibti · August 2010

[QUOTE]I definitly agree that the deceased parent's name should apear, but not in the "requesting your presence" part- it would be really confusing for people recieving the invite. I'm sure there's a way that the parent could be mentioned on the invitation in some other manner though.
Posted by AidanMarie[/QUOTE]

We did include mention of FI's late mother ("Kathryn to FI, son of father and the late mother, stepson of stepmother"), but as it was on his "side" of the invite there won't be any confusion.

I just couldn't think of any way the OP could include her late parent in the hosting portion of it. And I'm making all kinds of assumptions as to who is deceased and who is hosting and such, sorry but there's not much information to go on from the OP. It's not like the invites could read "request your presence of bride, daughter of late parent, to groom". I wouldn't think you're allowed to split up the couple on an invite.

brookelynpaisley · August 2010

I'm truly sorry for your loss, but a deceased person cannot host a party, plain and simple. You could use "along with their parents'" which would effectively include those both living and passed.

Beachy730 · August 2010

I agree that a deceased parent cannot host a wedding. I'm very sorry for your loss, but an invitation is not the place to include a deceased parent. Put the names of parents on the invite who are alive and well and hosting the event, then in your ceremony program you can make special mention of your mom.

mysticl · August 2010

Another bride here with a dead parent. I left all parents off of the invite.

However, not every invite has the parents "requesting" the guests attendance. I have seen wording such as:
Bride daughter of Mom and Dad
In which case I personally think it would be perfectly appropriate to place the deceased parent, they are still you parent.

LeeJane25 · August 2010

Clearly, a deceased parent cannot host a party. But as one poster said above, there are other ways to word an invitation that can acknowledge the parents of the bride and groom, even if they are deceased. Regardless of who is hosting, the bride is still the daughter of two people and the groom is still the son of two people, even if those people are dead. NOT to acknowledge that fact is simply inaccurate. To dictate, as the knot has, that one cannot include a deceased parent's name is illogical, not to mention close-minded and insensitive.

JenGin74 · August 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_annoyed-knots-advice?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:18c11b63-518a-4385-a667-29c9b789bf2aPost:11e66cbb-a4f4-44b3-811d-7389bb9dc335">Re: annoyed with the knot's advice</a>:
[QUOTE]Clearly, a deceased parent cannot host a party. But as one poster said above, there are other ways to word an invitation that can acknowledge the parents of the bride and groom, even if they are deceased. Regardless of who is hosting, the bride is still the daughter of two people and the groom is still the son of two people, even if those people are dead. NOT to acknowledge that fact is simply inaccurate. To dictate, as the knot has, that one cannot include a deceased parent's name is illogical, not to mention close-minded and insensitive.
Posted by LeeJane25[/QUOTE]

So just word it however you'd like. Problem solved.

skippylouwho · August 2010

FSIL's father is deceased. On the wedding invitations it says

Hermina Moosey
daughter of
Algernon and Lyric Moosey

and

Joseph Schmo
son of
Horatio+ and Davina Schmo

The + you see above is actually a small cross. They felt it was a quiet, respectful way to indicate that he is deceased. The wedding programs will have the same thing.

banana468 · August 2010

The issue is that only recently has there been the notion that people not hosting the event belong on the invitation. Old-school etiquette holds that the invitation is issued by those hosting to the event joining the couple. Because the deceased cannot host an event, the names don't belong there.

That doesn't mean that a deceased parent doesn't have a place in your heart or at the wedding. The invitation simply isn't the place for it though. You can ignore the advice on TK but this time it's well in-line with correct etiquette - the only exception is if your culture is Latin American.

To take it a step further, read below on what Crane's (the primary source for invitation etiquette) states on the same matter:

My father passed away last year and I would like to include his name on my wedding invitations. How is that done?

While wishing to include a deceased parent's name on a wedding invitation is a lovely sentiment, it is not proper to do so (except in Latin America). The essential purpose of a wedding invitation is to invite your guests to your wedding and to tell them where and when it is taking place. It lists the host or hosts of the event, what the event is (your wedding), and the date, time, and place. The only logical place to list your father's name is on an invitational line. This, however, is improper as he would be listed as one of the hosts of your wedding. Since he is deceased, he cannot be a host.

Your father's name is, of course, mentioned in your newspaper announcement and may also be mentioned in the wedding program and during a prayer said during the service. Your wedding is a joyous occasion. Reminding your guests of your father's death by adding "and the late Mr. Andrew Jay Forrester" introduces an element of sadness to an otherwise joyous occasion.

The Hispanic tradition, on the other hand, does include the name of a deceased parent. If the deceased parent is the bride's father, her mother's name appears alone on the first line and her father's name, followed by a small cross if Christian or a Star of David if Jewish, appears on line two. One note of caution: Your guests may not be familiar with this custom and may not understand the meaning of it.

http://www.crane.com/Etiquette.aspx?C=WeddingEtiquette&S=WeddingInvitation&I=Widowed_Parents

If you don't like to follow this sure go ahead and do something different. But please understand that the rules did exist for a reason and they're not "wrong".

JanoBean75 · August 2010

Banana beat me to it.

On a standard invitation, I don't like having the bride's parents listed after her name the way the groom's parents usually are. It takes the attention away from the bride and groom.

I have seen more modern styles where this was done and it looks really cool, but in these cases, the bride and groom's names were quite large and the parents' names were set in a different font. The emphasis remained on the bride and groom.

banana468 · August 2010

Also, you're not supposed to put any writing between the bride and groom's names other than 'and' or 'to' on the invitation. It's symbolic that those people are going between the couple.

quotequeen · August 2010

The advice is correct. If you don't want to follow it that's fine, but you shouldn't be mad that somebody is putting forth correct advice. (And the knot puts forth all sorts of incorrect advice, so I'm surprised this is what you're complaining about.)

bel138 · August 2010

I didn't like the idea of including my dad and stepmom's name on the invite without my my mom. But to put her with "the late" on an invitation to a happy day is like BAM DEAD MOM. I thought it would be even worse because I imagined people, a lot of whom are FI's distant relatives that I don't know well, being like, "Oh, today must be SO HARD for you without your mom." Uh, yeah, and you just made it eleventy billion times worse.

I did "together with their families" to save drama.

pirategal03 · August 2010

I understand what you're saying. And I understand it just not feeling right to not include both of your parents. But these ladies are correct, that's just how it is.

Only people who are alive can host. It's improper to put anything between the bride and groom's names (except and or to). That leaves really no good way to include a deceased parent of the bride.

Believe me, I tried. And, well, the situation's not unique. I hate it, but there's not a right way to do it, not matter how you feel. I'm sorry.

twinkie757 · August 2010

It seems as though there have been many assumptions about who is hosting the event and such. It's true that someone who is deceased can't host a party, but they are still the parent. If a person can find a way to word their invitation to include a deceased parent and still make all of the important information clear, they are pretty talented.

Birdie1483 · August 2010

I'm a member of the dead dad's club and I felt like you at first. However, once I thought about it I understood the reasoning. Traditional wedding invitations are worded to note who is hosting the reception and dead parents can't help host.

That being said, I don't think the etiquette police are going to come after you if you make mention of your dead parent on the invitation. Like you said, sometimes personal feelings and situations may trump proper etiquette.

It may not be for everyone, but I would never judge you for it because I understand how significant events such as weddings seem to point out the absence of your parent in your life and it sucks. It's like rubbing salt in an open wound.

LeeJane25 · August 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_annoyed-knots-advice?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:18c11b63-518a-4385-a667-29c9b789bf2aPost:2eb4fa9a-406f-4aee-844f-316d33170bd8">Re: annoyed with the knot's advice</a>:
[QUOTE]The issue is that only recently has there been the notion that people not hosting the event belong on the invitation. Old-school etiquette holds that the invitation is issued by those hosting to the event joining the couple. Because the deceased cannot host an event, the names don't belong there. That doesn't mean that a deceased parent doesn't have a place in your heart or at the wedding. The invitation simply isn't the place for it though. You can ignore the advice on TK but this time it's well in-line with correct etiquette - the only exception is if your culture is Latin American. To take it a step further, read below on what Crane's (the primary source for invitation etiquette) states on the same matter: My father passed away last year and I would like to include his name on my wedding invitations. How is that done? While wishing to include a deceased parent's name on a wedding invitation is a lovely sentiment, it is not proper to do so (except in Latin America). The essential purpose of a wedding invitation is to invite your guests to your wedding and to tell them where and when it is taking place. It lists the host or hosts of the event, what the event is (your wedding), and the date, time, and place. The only logical place to list your father's name is on an invitational line. This, however, is improper as he would be listed as one of the hosts of your wedding. Since he is deceased, he cannot be a host. Your father's name is, of course, mentioned in your newspaper announcement and may also be mentioned in the wedding program and during a prayer said during the service. Your wedding is a joyous occasion. Reminding your guests of your father's death by adding "and the late Mr. Andrew Jay Forrester" introduces an element of sadness to an otherwise joyous occasion. The Hispanic tradition, on the other hand, does include the name of a deceased parent. If the deceased parent is the bride's father, her mother's name appears alone on the first line and her father's name, followed by a small cross if Christian or a Star of David if Jewish, appears on line two. One note of caution: Your guests may not be familiar with this custom and may not understand the meaning of it. <a href="http://www.crane.com/Etiquette.aspx?C=WeddingEtiquette&S=WeddingInvitation&I=Widowed_Parents" rel="nofollow">http://www.crane.com/Etiquette.aspx?C=WeddingEtiquette&S=WeddingInvitation&I=Widowed_Parents</a> If you don't like to follow this sure go ahead and do something different. But please understand that the rules did exist for a reason and they're not "wrong".
Posted by banana468[/QUOTE]

<div>If you think about it, etiquette is subjective. Different etiquette "experts" will give you different advice on the same topic. Etiquette, therefore, is never right or wrong, but contingent upon the situation. If a large number of people agree that a certain action is correct etiquette, then that's the "norm," or the standard. That being said, what I'm saying is that I disagree with this standard in etiquette, and I think we should open our minds to alternatives. I'm not posting on this board to determine how I should word my invitation -- I've already decided that -- I just thought it was an interesting etiquette issue to bring up, one that people clearly disagree about. You're not incorrect for citing the standard etiquette advice; I'm not incorrect for disagreeing with it. The attitude of, "nope, you can't do it; sorry," doesn't cut it for me, though. I think people should talk about these things and reconsider how they approach certain situations and discuss why etiquette is the way it is. The purpose of etiquette is not to follow some set of arbitrary rules, but to maintain a standard of politeness. And if I can accomplish that standard of politeness by breaking etiquette rules, which I certainly can in this situation, I will do it. [Furthermore, Crane's mention that including "the late" "introduces and element of sadness" is bogus -- including "the late" is about honor and respect, and if a guest felt sad about it, that's not an inappropriate reaction. That's not my intention, but it's also not my problem.]</div><div>
</div><div>This is what I'm doing: </div><div>Mr. and Mrs. [bride's parents] request the honor of your presence at the marriage of their daughter, [name], to [groom's name], son of Ms. [his mom] and the late Mr. [his dad]. </div><div>
</div>

banana468 · August 2010

Lee, I don't think what you're doing is all that bad honestly.

But keep in mind that etiquette exists as social law. And if a group of people disagree with the social law that doesn't mean that said law doesn't exist. It just means that some are OK with breaking the rule and that's OK for them.

And FWIW, you can disagree about the element of sadness that mentioning the deceased can do. But I've seen portions of weddings that incorporated elements in honor of someone who passed and I have to say that I did get choked up in sadness at the moment. That doesn't mean that the couple was bad to do those things - but at the time there was a heartfelt sad reaction on my part too.

red1115 · August 2010

LeeJane - I'm right there with you!!

I think we all have to remember that what some consider "normal" or "proper" (Groan!) is completely out of whack for others. Case in point: How many brides here would consider them incomplete walking down the aisle without their hands and feet covered in henna tattoos? How many are having invitaions without raised lettering? How many are paying for or hosting their own weddings? I know brides who wouldn't be caught dead wearing white on their wedding day! We've all adapted ettique to suit us or our families/ social circles. Just because someone has a custom that is different than another's doesn't make it wrong. I actually recieved an invite 2 yrs ago that practically had the freaking family trees on it! (2 sets of parents & 4 sets of grandparents hosting the marriage of Bride & Groom) I couldn't tell you if any of them were deceased, as the wedding was *huge*!

Now realistically, a deceaseed parent can't host anything and traditional western uber-formal wedding wording doesn't allow any place for parental heritage to include a deceased parent - who says you have to have a traditional wedding invitation? Like some said earlier - its not like the wedding police are going to come after you! (Although I find it funny that some people always seem to think they're Emily Post's private hit squad...!) If you & your FH are happy with your invites, that's really what matters, isn't it?

Good Luck!

banana468 · August 2010

Red, keep in mind you're using examples of tradition as etiquette. The two may be related but they're not the same thing.

Henna tattoos, couples hosting their own wedding, and a bride not wearing white have nothing to do with etiquette. They're about traditions.

andy71781 · August 2010

Lee - I did what you are doing and it worked out fine. You'll find yoursef "breaking" etiquette rules now and then throughout your wedding planning. I've yet to see the perfect Emily Post wedding. I will say though that the rules exist for a reason. Some people get really sad thinking of ones who have passed on and weddings are supposed to be a happy time. For my situation there was no ifs ands or buts - DH's mom was going on the invite.

I say do it - recognize you are going against the grain and don't fight the rules for the sake of being different.

red1115 · August 2010

hmmm - I think we're arguing the same side of the coin...all etiquette is tradition, but all tradition is not etiquette.

Tradition encompasses beliefs, customs & practices maintained for social interaction (i.e. etiquette). I'm saying that etiquette in one country, setting. tribe, etc can be completely different in another. But the overriding law of all etiquette is politeness and graceousness towards others. Acknowledging ones parental heritage on a wedding invitation doesn't violate that. Having a late parent request your presence at an event just doesn't make sense. Acknowledging the bride/groom is the child of the late XYZ on an invite may be a breech of etiquette in some circles and *not* to do so would be a major breech in others. (trust me - not acknowleding one's elders is a major etiquette breech to some people) Either way, I think that etiquette is not law, but is something we follow as a group because it is known, comfortable and expected by our social circles. I think the bride is looking for guidance on how to achive her want in accordance with traditional etiquette practice, which hasn't caught up. I think the bride is free to disregard the etiquette in this case, but she'll have to acknowledge its not traditional etiquette in her culture.

My problem is with those in our world who feel that if its not traditional or "proper" its somehow inferior or in bad taste. I think too much of our attention in our wedding world is focused on etiquette instead of people. A wedding is one day in our lives (abet an important one), but our marriages will last forever (hopefully)! Maybe someday, we'll evolve.

Thankfully, here in the U.S we've been allowed great freedom to adapt our traditions & heritage and etiquette to modern day - much to the dismay of many and relief to others. (Heaven knows a number of grooms would be thrilled if their brides came with a dowry, and many fathers relieved that they don't have to provide one! LOL)

I'm sure what ever she decides to do, the invite will turn out beautiful!

JenO24 · August 2010

OP - FWIW, I DID put "and the late" on my invitation and NO etiquette fairy came down and smitted me for it NOR did anyone who received the invite say it wasn't correct!

I lost my Dad almost 9 years ago and I don't care what ANYONE thought - I did it MY way! F*ck what anyone thinks...do what you want!!! Whether he's alive or passed hes your parent

Ours read...
Ms. MomsName and the Late Mr. DadsName
along w/ Mr. GroomsDadsName
request the honor of your presense...etc

kathrynhabibti · August 2010

[QUOTE]OP - FWIW, I DID put "and the late" on my invitation and NO etiquette fairy came down and smitted me for it <strong>NOR did anyone who received the invite say it wasn't correct!</strong> I lost my Dad almost 9 years ago and I don't care what ANYONE thought - I did it MY way! F*ck what anyone thinks...do what you want!!! Whether he's alive or passed hes your parent Ours read... Ms. MomsName and the Late Mr. DadsName along w/ Mr. GroomsDadsName request the honor of your presense...etc
Posted by JenO24[/QUOTE]

I'm very sorry you lost your father, but just because they didn't say anything doesn't mean they didn't find it odd.

annoyed with the knot's advice

Re: annoyed with the knot's advice

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