NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy

Nickie431 · May 2012

Refreshing points about how women oppress ourselves through misguided choices: http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=29684

Riss91 · May 2012

Awesome post! Thanks for sharing!

professorscience · May 2012

WOW! The picture at the bottom is especially disturbing, but that is a great article!

minniehopeless · May 2012

Yes and no, personally I'm of the super liberal type. Very typical northern European catholic. But my faith is mine alone? In exactly that my sexuality is my business and mine alone. If porn is a "thing" for me and not for you? Awesome. Feminism is a wonderful multifaceted beast, but essentially it provides us all with the option to be true to ourselves and to our faith.

Yes I'm pro choice, pro porn, happy clappy lefty liberal socialist etc but I'm still a Catholic. We all come to it in our own way and I think that's something we don't talk about enough. We can be all of these things and still be good people and good Catholics.

Riss91 · May 2012

I took the article as a response to this notion that conservatives/republicans/pro-lifers are "oppressing" women. That women couldn't possibly believe in this stuff of their own accord. That to believe these things makes you less "womanly", or makes you weak or naive or foolish in todays' standards of women. I take offense to the idea that rules that follow Catholic doctrine make women less than full citizens. And this has been a prevalent notion in response to HHS and other "women's rights" topics.

The author was trying to make the point that there are many things that are heavily promoted in our society that "oppress" women, or objectify them. That maybe these things should be discussed and addressed in society rather than an outcry over not having your pills paid for.

This was the quote that the author was responding to:
“American women need to be recognized as full citizens…It is evident that conservatives do not believe women can be trusted to think for themselves and make their own decisions… about when to become parents, money, faith, nothing. Instead, in almost every sphere of life, their agenda is designed to keep women dependent on the good graces of men and competing for the resources that men have traditionally provided and keep them vulnerable in the process.”

minniehopeless · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-women-as-our-own-worst-enemy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:3af213e2-1097-47c9-900f-2aa2c29388f8Post:0c9a796c-75d8-487d-9a47-7b5fd540aab5">Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy</a>:
[QUOTE]I took the article as a response to this notion that conservatives/republicans/pro-lifers are "oppressing" women. That women couldn't possibly believe in this stuff of their own accord. That to believe these things makes you less "womanly", or makes you weak or naive or foolish in todays' standards of women. I take offense to the idea that rules that follow Catholic doctrine make women less than full citizens. And this has been a prevalent notion in response to HHS and other "women's rights" topics. The author was trying to make the point that there are many things that are heavily promoted in our society that "oppress" women, or objectify them. That maybe these things should be discussed and addressed in society rather than an outcry over not having your pills paid for. This was the quote that the author was responding to: “American women need to be recognized as full citizens…It is evident that conservatives do not believe women can be trusted to think for themselves and make their own decisions… about when to become parents, money, faith, nothing. Instead, in almost every sphere of life, their agenda is designed to keep women dependent on the good graces of men and competing for the resources that men have traditionally provided and keep them vulnerable in the process.”
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

<strong>The bit that offends me is the assumption that our church's view should apply to every one.</strong> And hey I'm Scottish our pills and abortions are free, and people don't abort babies for sh*ts and giggles. I can practice my beliefs with out impacting on some other poor woman's quality of life.

I also have a massive beef witht he anti porn doctrine. Its okay if it get you off, its okay if it doesn't. ITS ALL OKAY.

minniehopeless · May 2012

Okay, I'm going to further my point. Sexy is okay. You can have all kinds of perfectly holy loving dirty sex with your husband. That doesn't make you a bad catholic. Or a bad person.

As some one who is into the kink scene and a feminist I find these types of articles very excluding, which isn't what catholicism is about. It should be about our personal journeys in faith, to create happy families. I shouldn't feel shameful or dirty for doing that our own way.

I also have no right to judge the woman next door for what she does, or deny her health services that allow her to raise her family her way.

professorscience · May 2012

I don't think the author is suggesting that anyone's way of life should be interfered with or negatively affected by what she is suggesting. She is merely suggesting that if we live our lives in a little more accord with Christ's will, these "oppressions" will suddenly seem less... oppressing. I certainly won't tell you that you are wrong for enjoying porn, but you can't possibly argue that it doesn't create an unrealistic (and unfair) stereotype of women (and men).

I personally love this writer for her responses to Soraya Chemaly, who seems to have a gigantic chip on her shoulder when it comes to Catholicism. Having read a lot of what Chemaly writes for HuffPo, most of her vitriol comes from what she thinks she knows about the church. The author of this blog gives a very refreshing look at what has been twisted into a nonexistant "war on women" and makes me relieved to know that I'm not absolutely crazy for feeling how I do about things like Cosmo magazine (or the variations aimed at young girls) or porn or this whole, "do whatever makes you happy" attitude most of the people I know seem to have.

And, on the one hand, you're totally right that the church's view can't possibly hold much significance for anyone who doesn't subscribe to it, but that doesn't remove the church's (and her members') right to speak its mind.

Riss91 · May 2012

I guess I didn't read the article the same way. Obviously, it's written on a Catholic site, so the slant is going to be towards Catholics/Catholic lifestyle. I don't think any Catholics are expected to judge any person for what they have done or what they prefer. But they can advise others away from sin. Whether the person chooses to act one way or another is on them.

But, I do think that some of these things in our society change the perception of a woman's worth. And for some - they prefer that perception. Others, simply don't. But it is a mixed message to be obsessed with making women into sexual objects and then making motherhood (the natural result of sex) into a diseased condition. As Catholics, we are cautioned against pornography for many reasons (that could be discussed in another thread). I realize not every Catholic person agrees with every single bit of Catholic doctrine. But, whether you agree or not, you have to admit what the doctrine is and respect that some believe it to be true. It's a choice to go against it and everyone has to do what they feel comfortable with. I truly don't expect non-Catholics to hold to Catholic doctrine, but I expect them to respect that it exists and respect those that choose to follow it.

Just to clarify - no one is denied health services in this HHS scuffle. All that is being asked is that the Church doesn't pay for someone's abortions, day after pills, etc. These pills not only go against the faith, but aren't mandatory and you can get them for $8 at Wal-Mart if you really want them. There's really no need for all the ant-Cathlic hoopla.

Resa77 · May 2012

I really enjoyed this, thanks for posting! There were a couple things that I don't necessarily agree with 100%, but overall it's a good read. I really appreciate that so many women seem to be coming forward on these issues of reproductive "health."

agapecarrie · May 2012

Satan twists the good, and deceives people into thinking bad is good. It's all deception. It's ironic that women are making choices that seem to "liberate" them, yet actual enslave them.

Marital sex is HOLY. Very very beautiful and holy. It is an icon of the trinity, and image that points us to Christ and the church.

To twist and degrade it by using people--- to objectify them...to rip apart the body from the soul is the twisting of the beauty of what marriage and sex can be, and making it less---glorifying the body devoid of the soul.

Pornography is a worse drug than cocaine (this is documented scientific fact). There is no way to detox from it.

minniehopeless · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-women-as-our-own-worst-enemy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:3af213e2-1097-47c9-900f-2aa2c29388f8Post:d2dff7c7-7e69-4103-b367-a93e3266b803">Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy</a>:
[QUOTE]Pornography is a worse drug than cocaine (this is documented scientific fact). There is no way to detox from it.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Sources? what papers and journals, I want to read further on this view point. Because its quite contrary to the accepted academic notion.

minniehopeless · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-women-as-our-own-worst-enemy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:3af213e2-1097-47c9-900f-2aa2c29388f8Post:0fabaad7-86f3-4f74-9173-022c52d0d7d1">Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy</a>:
[QUOTE] There's really no need for all the ant-Cathlic hoopla.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

No I am VERY catholic but I find all these statements as damaging and isolatiing. Into kink? NOT A PROPER CATHOLIC. like a bit of smut to read? NOT A PROPER CATHOLIC Don't think you have the right to dictate what others do with their body? NOT A PROPER CATHOLIC.

THIS IS BAD, it isolates women it makes disfunction out of perfectly normal urges. Kink is not the stem of daddy issues or any other kind of abuse its just what makes your brain click the "this is good" button and your toes curl. Porn is just consenting adults. Thats its. Or its books. There's nothing terrible there.

Why can't we accept that some of us are very conservative and some of us really aren't, we're all under the same mother church. We all go to the same masses. But the assuumption that anything that dictates from theconservative thought is damaging is whats doing the damage.

PeggyA26 · May 2012

Thank you agapecarrie. So true!

professorscience · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-women-as-our-own-worst-enemy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:3af213e2-1097-47c9-900f-2aa2c29388f8Post:bc8723c1-6418-483a-b611-c8e3823485bb">Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy : No I am VERY catholic but I find all these statements as damaging and isolatiing. Into kink? NOT A PROPER CATHOLIC. like a bit of smut to read? NOT A PROPER CATHOLIC Don't think you have the right to dictate what others do with their body? NOT A PROPER CATHOLIC. THIS IS BAD, it isolates women it makes disfunction out of perfectly normal urges. Kink is not the stem of daddy issues or any other kind of abuse its just what makes your brain click the "this is good" button and your toes curl. Porn is just consenting adults. Thats its. Or its books. There's nothing terrible there. Why can't we accept that some of us are very conservative and some of us really aren't, we're all under the same mother church. We all go to the same masses. But the assuumption that anything that dictates from theconservative thought is damaging is whats doing the damage.
Posted by minniehopeless[/QUOTE]

Again, it's entirely possible for people to view and enjoy pornography and be well-rounded, productive members of society. However, the damage done to many cannot be argued. Pornography is NOT always consenting adults -- and it is the "underground" rings of porn that can create some of the most twisted, depraved aspects of our species.

And I don't think Riss was addressing *you* as anti-Catholic. The author of the blog post in the OP was writing in response to a VERY anti-Catholic journalist. When the church is attacked, its members have to be able to come forward and defend her.

And the author didn't (at least I didn't think so) say anything about sexuality in itself being bad. She pointed out an industry that turns women into creatures of only sexual pleasure and said we should stop funding such an industry.

Riss91 · May 2012

Minnie - sorry if that seemed to come off as directed at you. I was addressing the anti-Catholic media.

I also refuse to acknowledge the idea of a "proper" Catholic or a "good" Catholic. How can we possibly define what that is? I'm wary of anyone that appoints themselves that title. Only God can determine whether we are deserving of such praise. We are all working hard towards the proper path and none of us are always on point.

Conservative/liberal designations are political distinctions, not religious ones. When it comes to religion, you either believe and follow doctrine, or you don't. There are few areas that allow for individual interpretation. I'm sure everyone has had misgivings with certain doctrine (at least at some point - I know I have!), we're humans and we are curious, rational - not to mention stubborn! It is hard to accept every bit of it, especially when so much of it is at odds with our culture today. We are prone to seek out pleasure and convenience which is often linked to the very temptations we should avoid. It's easy to overlook the underlying evil of some things because they don't seem so bad on the surface. That is why we need God's love, mercy and forgiveness.

Anyone that may want to understand more about sexuality in the Catholic faith should definitely read Theology of the Body. It really explains a great deal.

lalaith50 · May 2012

Here you go, minnie...

http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF12D43.pdf

Increased likelihood of teen pregnancy? Increased positive attitude towards rape? Yeah, those are all really good things that come as a result of viewing porn...

Either you will read this and be horrified at the compilation of statistics from unbiased sources and you will be unable to persist in your view that there is "nothing wrong" with pornography, or... you will refuse to read it b/c you don't want your opinion to be changed.

ETA:, oh, oops! I didn't even realize this is from the same website that the original article cited! (My link takes you directly to the more thorough paper with citations)

agapecarrie · May 2012

You can read the catechism to find out what being a proper catholic is. This isn't an opinion here, this is what the church says what being Catholic is.

It isn't isolating women to believe the things the Catholic church believes. The catholic church upholds women's dignity above and beyond what anything in the world is doing.

Riss91 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-women-as-our-own-worst-enemy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:3af213e2-1097-47c9-900f-2aa2c29388f8Post:fbd4c844-7c9a-4704-b819-11ca9de56d23">Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>You can read the catechism to find out what being a proper catholic is. This isn't an opinion here, this is what the church says what being Catholic is</strong>. It isn't isolating women to believe the things the Catholic church believes. The catholic church upholds women's dignity above and beyond what anything in the world is doing.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree with that. I simply mean the we cannot look at someone, or even ourselves and bestow such a distinction upon ourselves. That is for God to decide. Only He truly knows whether each one of has has been true to the faith.

agapecarrie · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-women-as-our-own-worst-enemy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:3af213e2-1097-47c9-900f-2aa2c29388f8Post:9dd97b21-9ff2-4080-85ec-948712dd2540">Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy : Oh, I agree with that. I simply mean the we cannot look at someone, or even ourselves and bestow such a distinction upon ourselves. That is for God to decide. Only He truly knows whether each one of has has been true to the faith.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

<div>Sorry, Riss, I wasn't trying to counter what you were saying, just adding to the conversation. </div>

Nickie431 · May 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-women-as-our-own-worst-enemy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:3af213e2-1097-47c9-900f-2aa2c29388f8Post:90245247-8a9e-43f8-a676-f2a428882d4f">Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy</a>:
[QUOTE]Conservative/liberal designations are political distinctions, not religious ones. When it comes to religion, you either believe and follow doctrine, or you don't. There are few areas that allow for individual interpretation. I'm sure everyone has had misgivings with certain doctrine (at least at some point - I know I have!), we're humans and we are curious, rational - not to mention stubborn! It is hard to accept every bit of it, especially when so much of it is at odds with our culture today. We are prone to seek out pleasure and convenience which is often linked to the very temptations we should avoid. It's easy to overlook the underlying evil of some things because they don't seem so bad on the surface. That is why we need God's love, mercy and forgiveness. Anyone that may want to understand more about sexuality in the Catholic faith should definitely read Theology of the Body. It really explains a great deal.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Very well said, Riss. One aspect I've come to love about the Church is the body of scholarly, theological thought she provides as guidance. Especially as a questioning teenager, I struggled with some aspects of Catholic doctrine (particularly papal infalliability). What I came to understand is that Church teaching has been formed through centuries of study, examination, and prayer by thousands of people whom God has called to devote their lives to such. While I'm not a sheep blindly following, I did develop enough humility to realize that this body of devout experts might have more wisdon than I possess as an individual. Thank goodness! This is good. It's actually become comforting not to have to rely solely on my own understanding, because my understanding is limited. By recongizing my own human limits, I can invite God to meet me, challenge me, and advance my faith.</div><div>
</div><div>Now, as a proud, inquisitive, and, yes, stubborn person, I still do have questions at times. But rather than assume that I'm right and the Church's position is not relevant to me, I instead take the approach that Church doctrine as God's instution on earth might be the direction I need to align my thinking, and I pray and study accordingly.</div><div>
</div><div>God beautifully blessed us each with a mind and free will. But when we rely only on our own faculties and sensibilities, we're bound to stray, because as imperfect creatures we're also prone to fallacies in thinking, the persuasion of society, and what feels good or seems right in the moment.</div><div>
</div><div>In regard to pornography, any sexual expression outside marriage is against God's plan for our bodies and hearts. Even when we don't realize it (and we usually don't, because we're imperfect), sin has a way of eating away at what God has carefully crafted in each of us. Pornography promotes individual pleasure, self-gratification, isolation, and separation of the physical from the emotional over the values such as self-sacrifice, fidelity, and compassion that can be so richly expressed through sexual and emotional intimacy with a spouse. Plus, as said in PP, there is a lot of exploitation in the adult entertainment industry.</div>

Riss91 · May 2012

Nickie - lots of brilliant thoughts!

caitriona87 · May 2012

Really, none of us are "proper Catholics" in the sense that all of us sin and fall short of the glory of God.

However, what the Church teaches about sexuality is not some sort of add-on or extra...it naturally proceeds forth from the truth about the nature of God as a trinitarian communion of Persons and man being made in His image. The secular culture's mantra is that "it's all okay" but what's been revealed to us by God through the Church shows very clearly that what we do with our bodies does indeed have profound effects on our souls for good or for ill. Sex and family life are meant to be an image of a) the life-giving communion of the Trinity and b) the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, the marriage between Christ and the Church. If we take our job seriously to be icons to the world of these realities as married couples, there just is no room for debasement of the human person or depravity. We have to strive after a pure and holy love (that yes is expressed in marital sex) but that has no room for denigration of the human person into an object for one's own use and pleasure.

NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy

Re: NWR: Women As Our Own Worst Enemy

Choose Another Board

Search Boards