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Not Engaged Yet

"There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.)

(Do we have long posts anymore?)

As some of you ladies know, I've started a really fun meetup group in Colorado called the Laid Back Lively Ladies of the Front Range.

That's us...we're totally hawt. ;)

We have two active book clubs- and one of them is called "Ladies Living Intentionally." We met last Tuesday for the second time and are reading the book called "Life is a Verb: 37 Days."


This week we read the Chapter called "Inclusion: Be Generous" and the next chapter we will will be discussing is "Integrity: Speak Up."

So as you can imagine, this combination and the fact that some of the people I cherish most in my life (not just on the board) are sad to see where NEY is possibly heading...it has been making me think. Not to mention- I miss you ladies terribly. I think I became slightly distant after the board dynamics started to shift.

We've discussed board dynamics before- and I don't think it's a bad thing that communities change. In fact- it's not something that can be stopped. People change. Life changes. If there is anything you can depend on- it's change. And change is good.

Things are different. We are all different- and thank god for that. What a boring place it would be if we were all the same. How lucky we we all are to have different passions and interests. What would happen if we all supported just the homeless? There would be no capital for medical research. Illiteracy would be significantly higher. There wouldn't be enough support for our Seniors. Helpless animals would be killed more often. People with depression would suffer in silence more than they already do.

No cause is greater the another. Typically, no opinion is better than another. The key to getting interest in your cause or opinion is to find ways to speak up that honor your reality and the reality of others.

There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it doesn't matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one who runs around and around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.
-Hindu Teaching

I think it's awesome that we are able to show each other our different paths.
Educate. Discuss. Expand eachother's minds. Support each other. Encourage growth.

But I'm not sure that is exactly what we have been doing lately. I'm afraid that we have been building up walls and hurting some people, and often disguising it as "telling it how it is" or "being honest." Why not be honest with yourself?

What message are you trying to convey? Do you really feel passionate about something you want to express? Lift someone up so that they can see what you are feeling/seeing. I've been told that if you are lost- it's more effective for me to tell you how to get to my house from where you are....and not the other way around. Put yourself in that poster's shoes- and come up with a response that makes sense for where they are.

Buckminster Fuller once wrote, "You were given a right foot and a left foot, not a right foot and a wrong foot." My book club book instructs, "Stop arguing, start listening. When you find yourself insisting on a point, step off it, tango to the left, slide to the right, do-si-do around it, dance with it, speak to it."

Everyday you might want to ask yourself, "Am I becoming someone I respect?"  Am I kind and compassionate? Am I lifting other's up? Am I making a positive difference? (ETA : Maybe these aren't the things that you value. But are you living up to the things that you do value?)

You are all wonderful. You are all beautiful. You are smart. You are kind. You are strong. Give yourself permission. You don't need anyone else's approval. You don't need to align with the crowd to be cherished. Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
- Mark Twain


Teach this triple truth to all: A generous heart, kind speech, and a life of service and compassion are the things that renew humanity."
-Buddah





Now...for an lolcat:



Love you ladies!


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Re: "There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.)

  • I really loved this post Lunar. You made some great points :)


  • jorja86jorja86 member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary
    Honestly, Lunar. I think the quote in the subject line is bullshit. There are things that are unquestionably true. There are other things that are up for debate.  

    I think we are a very diverse group of women. Conflict is also an unavoidable part of life, and when you are part of a group like this, it's going to be part of the dynamic. I don't think it's ok to go after someone and bully them. But, I don't think that's generally what happens here. At all.

    I AM honest with myself. I'm also honest with other people. I try not to call people out on things that are part of them, and can't be changed. However, if I can tell someone that certain things they do piss me (and others) off, and color the way I perceive them...I'm going to tell them. Sugar coating things is not part of who I AM. Why should I change that? 

    Sorry, but I don't think everyone is wonderful, smart, or kind. I'm not going to tell people they are something they're not, just to make them feel better. I don't think every single valuable part of life involves being kind, lifting others up, and being positive. That's real life.

    I'm finding this post overall to be a little bit preachy. I'm sorry we're not living up to your standards. 
    image
  • lunarsongbirdlunarsongbird member
    2500 Comments Second Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited May 2012
    Jorja,

    I know that this post isn't going to settle well with everyone. And that subject line is just a quote- to shift perspective and open eyes. (Yes- of course there are some things that are absolutely truths, but a lot of things that people hold as truth- [some may even say religion]- is purely opinion.) It's a bigger picture thing.

    No one has to live up to standards that I have. Besides- the only standard that I have for this type of community is kindness. And are there some people being unkind? Absolutely. But do people need to live up to my standards? Absolutely not. People need live up to their own standards.

    And that is what this post was about. Self-evaluation. If even one poster (even a lurker who has never ever posted before)- reads this and thinks..."Hm- Maybe I haven't been as kind as I should." Or maybe, "I'm not being true to what I value."
    Then it's worth the time I put into it.

    As I mentioned yesterday to lovebug- no one has to justify their actions to anyone on this board. The only person you need to justify your behavior to is yourself.

    I hope this thread doesn't become a huge long train of people wanting to explain their behavior. If you don't think your behavior needs explaining. Then it probably doesn't. If you look back- and think your behavior does need explaining? That's a personal thing- unless you feel the need to apologize to someone (which doesn't need to be done publicly unless you want it to)- you don't have to air out that dirty laundry to other's.

    And I don't think I'm asking anyone to sugar coat anything- In fact- I'm not asking anyone to do anything. That post is all just full of thinking points. Some, most, or all that may not be helpful to anyone.

    We've mentioned this many many times- Desert never sugar coats things. She tells people how things are- and yet is almost never unkind. And I think her advice is oftentimes more accepted, because of that.

    That's all I was trying to say. You have a point to make? Try not to be a bitch about it. And people are more likely to accept what you have to say.




    If you take offense or feel defensive to that statement- you may want to "step off it, tango to the left, slide to the right, do-si-do around it, dance with it, speak to it." And think about how your feeling.

    If you find that you are being true to yourself. Don't change a darn thing. In fact- it would be ashame to change anything.


    ETA: And for what it's worth, Jorja- I thought you made some incredibly valuable points during the last FFF without cutting anyone down. AND you also made some good points about this thread, which I went back to edit.

    You're totally correct- not everyone needs to value what I value (feeling that people are wonderful, beautiful, and smart.) People need to be true to what they value. That was totally and utterly on target! You really add a lot to this group- and most definitely have great feedback in conflict (which I agree- is part of life- and a healthy part too. There typically is never any change without conflict).
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  • desertsundesertsun member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited May 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_there-is-no-truth-only-points-of-view-dame-edith-longsuper-long-actually?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:bee2d015-fe75-459e-9847-fb32f8769c02Post:7bde59f4-45fb-4981-bc82-56a76b9b1a99">Re: "There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.)</a>:
    [QUOTE]We've mentioned this many many times- Desert never sugar coats things. She tells people how things are- and yet is almost never unkind. And I think her advice is oftentimes more accepted, because of that. That's all I was trying to say. You have a point to make? Try not to be a bitch about it. And people are more likely to accept what you have to say.
    Posted by lunarsongbird[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>Thank you very much for these words. They truly mean a lot to me. I believe in a lot of the things you're talking about here, Lunar. I believe in treating others with compassion and respect. Sometimes being kind is about more than being "nice." Being straight up with someone, even if it might hurt some feelings, might just be the kindest thing you can do for them, IF you are genuinely focused on being constructive. </div><div>
    </div><div>I also really believe in trying to be honest with and taking a good hard look at yourself, and trying to be the best person you know how to be.</div><div>
    </div><div>Anyway. I appreciate what you're saying here, Lunar, and I'm also glad Jorja brought a little balance to the thread by challenging what you said/how you said it. </div><div>
    </div><div>I stick around here b/c I find the relationships and the people interesting still. I really am a better, happier person for knowing you ladies and being part of the board. Thanks for letting me stick around. :)</div><div>
    </div><div>
    </div><div>ETA: I'm sorry, but this is driving me crazy lately in your posts, Lunar. </div><div>
    </div><div>Than = comparison. </div><div>Then = time.</div><div>
    </div><div>
    </div><div>

    </div>
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  • lunarsongbirdlunarsongbird member
    2500 Comments Second Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited May 2012
    And this is what I love about "conflict"- it evolves what you hold to be truth. At first- yes, this post was focused about kindness, but after really mulling it over and dancing with Jorja's words- My focus changed.

    I didn't include something at the end of this quote:
    "Stop arguing, start listening. When you find yourself insisting on a point, step off it, tango to the left, slide to the right, do-si-do around it, dance with it, speak to it."

    At the end she says- "Your truth will wait, and sometimes grow or change by its proximity to someone else's."

    I just totally experienced that with Jorja and it was awesome. And eye-opening. (Although- I still believe that if Jorja was mean or unkind with her approach- I wouldn't have had that experience, because I most likely would have felt defensive or hurt- and shut down. I appreciate the thought that she put into responding to this thread.)

    Maybe this thread will turn into an awesome conversation of what NEY, as a group, expects from eachother as regular posters. We have this post for newbies- New? Read this first!!

    What would our..."Not New? Read this again!!" thread say?

    I think we can say that we definitely value honesty. Honesty with ourselves and with each other.

    What else would we say?

    Could we add..."We value honesty with ourselves and with each other, being mindful of our approach?"

    I have to imagine- if you take the time to come up with a really thoughtful response- you geninuely care about helping that individual. So you'll probably want to alter your approach so that they will actually take your words to heart (otherwise you just wasted your time typing them.) And yes- sometimes honesty is always painful- no matter what the approach.

    Anything you would like to add?
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  • lunarsongbirdlunarsongbird member
    2500 Comments Second Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited May 2012
    Thanks, Desert- Maybe this panda will help me:



    ETA: And I went through with the find function....So I think I fixed them.

    Perhaps we should add...

    We value proper grammar and use of the English language.

    (as it helps us better articulate ourselves and be well received by others)
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  • I heard a quote that I really enjoyed.

    If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live it's whole life believing its stupid.


    Sometimes people do say really dumb things, sometimes they are common sense things, but every person, every poster, on this board is different. We all have different interests, we all know different things, we all have different views.

    One thing one poster may know, another may not, one thing one poster thinks, another may not. I completely agree that there is way to discuss and show your point of view with others without being cruel or tearing them down. Even if you think that it is common sense and that they should know that, maybe they don't. Does that mean coddle them? No. I don't think anyone should change how they feel about something, but rather word it so that it doesn't come across as tearing someone down and saying no, you're wrong.

    Disagreeing on a subject or trying to enlighten someone on something they don't know about can be extremely beneficial for both parties. But when one person comes in and tears down another persons point of view, it is less likely that that person will be willing to discuss or try to see your side or point of view when you have belittled them or tore them down. 

    I think every person on the planet is guilty of this, at least once. It doesn't mean people do it on purpose, it doesn't mean they're bad people. It's human nature to try to make people understand something or to engage in discussion.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_there-is-no-truth-only-points-of-view-dame-edith-longsuper-long-actually?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:bee2d015-fe75-459e-9847-fb32f8769c02Post:204d2edf-f79a-4cda-905d-6b02e44910dd">Re: "There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.)</a>:
    [QUOTE] I think every person on the planet is guilty of this, at least once. It doesn't mean people do it on purpose, it doesn't mean they're bad people. It's human nature to try to make people understand something or to engage in discussion.
    Posted by prbright[/QUOTE]

    I agree with this. Lord knows that I have probably said some stupid, hurtful things. And I always hope that people will say, "Hey- Lunar- Your approach there...probably could have been a bit more tactful."
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  • Jorja, I really loved everything you had to say and I feel i2i with basically all of it.

    I have seen a few things that bother me, and I just choose to ignore them and make my own comments. I don't really feel like it is my place to jump in an make a huge spiel about the board changing, people doing things I don't like, etc. I'm not saying the post coco made was unnecessary, because I think she had a lot of good things to say. I just feel like I'm missing what is actually going on, because I don't see too much change.
    5/27/12
    image
  • I can see both sides of this coin - the board is changing/the board isn't changing. That's a good/bad thing. We should address this/we shouldn't.

    The no-nonense attitude NEY is known for hasn't changed. The way that no-nonsense attitude is being presented by some posters has. It's become downright mean. There's respectfully disagreeing and explaining, and then there's personal jabs and disrespect. 

    I barely post anymore because I don't like the way things are going. I used to scoff when people made threads like this one - "oh, she's just bitter because someone was 'mean' to her" - but I think that, based on what I've seen lately, this is completely warranted. We all just need to use some good judgement and start acting like the adults we are a little more often. 
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    Life is good today.
  • SwazzleSwazzle member
    10000 Comments Seventh Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    <div>I totally agree with everything Jorja said. </div><div>
    </div>In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_there-is-no-truth-only-points-of-view-dame-edith-longsuper-long-actually?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:bee2d015-fe75-459e-9847-fb32f8769c02Post:531373c5-292c-4a4c-96f5-1ccd51191a87">Re: "There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.)</a>:
    [QUOTE]Jorja, I really loved everything you had to say and I feel i2i with basically all of it. I have seen a few things that bother me, and I just choose to ignore them and make my own comments. I don't really feel like it is my place to jump in an make a huge spiel about the board changing, people doing things I don't like, etc. I'm not saying the post coco made was unnecessary, because I think she had a lot of good things to say.<strong> I just feel like I'm missing what is actually going on, because I don't see too much change.</strong>
    Posted by jaycee7389[/QUOTE]

    <div>And I feel the same exact way as Jaycee here.  </div><div>
    </div><div>I think the whole Cherobyl thing in the FFF last week became really ridiculous, but other than that I'm really not understanding what everyone is so up in arms over.  </div>



  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_there-is-no-truth-only-points-of-view-dame-edith-longsuper-long-actually?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:bee2d015-fe75-459e-9847-fb32f8769c02Post:9067dde6-440e-4302-98f1-fac1add24eb8">Re: "There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.)</a>:
    [QUOTE]I totally agree with everything Jorja said.  In Response to Re: "There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.) : And I feel the same exact way as Jaycee here.   I think the whole <strong>Cherobyl</strong> thing in the FFF last week became really ridiculous, but other than that I'm really not understanding what everyone is so up in arms over.  
    Posted by rdr716[/QUOTE]

    It's CHERNOBYL Rach.  GOD.  DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING?!!!!!!
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  • SwazzleSwazzle member
    10000 Comments Seventh Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited May 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_there-is-no-truth-only-points-of-view-dame-edith-longsuper-long-actually?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:bee2d015-fe75-459e-9847-fb32f8769c02Post:578ccb89-8308-428b-bde1-2a9c38c63eb2">Re: "There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.)</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "There is no truth. Only points of view." -Dame Edith (Long....Quite long, actually.) : It's CHERNOBYL Rach.  GOD.  DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING?!!!!!!
    Posted by peekaboo2011[/QUOTE]

    <div>Dammit. </div><div>
    </div><div>I blame the late to bed-early to rise thing I've got going on today. </div>



  • I respect individuals who have the confidence and self-assurance to voice their opinions. I respect heated debates. I respect honesty. I respect calling someone out on a behavior that you do not feel is acceptable.

    I do not respect personal attacks. I do not respect name calling. I do not respect a few individuals ganging up on one. I do not respect intolerance.

    I think Elle and Polo shared a wonderful debate last Friday on breastfeeding. They did not make personal attacks. They openly and honestly shared their individual viewpoints on the issue. Both ladies left the conversation calmly and respectfully. I think this is a wonderful example of how the members of this board generally conduct themselves.

    There are instances of bullying on this board. There are instances of group attacks on an individual. Personally, I feel these instances are rare - but they are also not something I'm willing to overlook. If i see instances of bullying or attacking behaviors, I speak out.

    Thanks for posting this thread Lunar. I think it's a wonderful idea for people (not just in relation to this board) to do a self-check periodically.

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