Question/vent regarding annulment - any ideas, thoughts??

nataliek3987 · November 2012

So, my DF was married before. He was only married for 9 months total, they ended up divorcing quickly because his wife had an affair with her boss (this happened prior to their marriage, and she told him the week before the wedding, they went on with the wedding and enrolled in counseling but just couldn't make it work and decided to divorce). The marriage was "annulled" (so I was told). His first marriage was at a courthouse (neither my DF or his 1st wife were Catholic).

I AM Catholic, and we met with our priest a few months ago because OUR wedding is going to be in the Catholic church. My fiance is going through adult baptism and confirmation (bless his soul) because he understands it is very important to my parents for me to marry in the Catholic church, additionally, he would like to raise our family as a Catholic family. At the time we met with our priest originally, we went over the marriage stuff and told the priest his first marriage was annulled (because that is what my DF was told). The priest said "ok" and he didn't ask for any more details.

Well, we were talking to our priest today and showed him the annulment paperwork. Apparently, the marriage was annulled BY THE STATE, but that does not mean it is annulled BY THE CHURCH. This was a total slap across the face to us - we thought an annulment was an annulment. Plus, since they weren't married in the church and neither of them were catholic at the time, it makes even less sense! The priest told us that he will go ahead and get the wheels in motion for a church annulment, but that it can take up to a year or longer! Our wedding is 8/2/12 - we have already reserved our reception venue and started to put lots of money (in deposits) into this wedding.

I sobbed in the church parking lot because this is such an unexpected slap in the face. It turns out we might not be able to get married in the Catholic church if this annulment doesn't go through by then, and my parents will be SO disappointed. I'm not sure what to do now - if I should reserve some outside space for a ceremony in case I need to have a contingency plan. My head is spinning and I am just so terribly upset about this. It's not my DF's fault but we have been engaged since LAST DECEMBER and I wish he would have been more proactive about this. I guess neither of us understood how difficult it is to get married in the Catholic church unless both parties have spotless records.

Any insight into the annulment process (what steps do we/does he have to take) and why the heck does it take so long? What would you do?

ootmother2 · November 2012

Stick with your FI and your priest. There are red flags going off here regarding his previous marriage and the circumstances around your marriage.

The fact that she was having an affair when he married her and it does appear that there was some fraud involved. Emotional pressure for "forms sake", absolutely.

If they were not married in the Church, it doesn't matter. Neither one was Catholic at the time but the Church doesn't just dismiss documents of a civil annulment. You & your FI should make sure that the priest had the annulment documents from the start. I guess the priest should have asked but that's history now.

I got my annulment in about 6 months. This was after my divorce though, I just wanted to have a clean slate so to speak. Perhaps it was faster because of living in the diocese center and a huge population, I never questioned it. Most people I know here say it took about the same time for them or maybe they have strings

I'm not walking around with a halo but Ii would suggest praying for a successful and rapid outcome. Praying together is weird at first but then you find it brings to to deeper issues and concerns as one which is what you will be doing the rest of your lives.

My halo is at Tiffany's being polished this weekend but I hope I helped, even a little bit!

Good luck and please PM me if you need to talk.

agapecarrie · November 2012

OK...lots of misunderstandings and issues going on here.

1). A catholic CAN marry someone who isn't catholic and it can still be a valid marriage (and sacramental if the other person is baptized). The other person does not have to become catholic. A person should NOT convert simply for that reason. They should convert because they believe the church is the truth. Not saying your fiance is doing this, just making the point.

2). How would your fiance, the non-Catholic know to be proactive about it? You are the catholic, and I realize that you might not have understood everything about what was going on, but I don't think wishing he could have been more proactive is a realistic viewpoint

3) THe church holds marriage to be extremely high-- -and believes marriage lasts until death. IT has nothing to do with "spotless record". It has to do with only being married to one person. and that is Christ's command. There is no "slap in the face". Your fiance is still presumed to be married to someone else. He is a married man. Do not plan on doing an outdoor wedding. It would not be valid. You would not be married in the eyes of the church and couldn't receive communion. Your soul is infinitely more valuable than deposit money.

4) The church honors non-catholic marriages to be valid (and sacramental if both people are baptized). Why is this considered a "slap in the face?" This to me is truth and a positive thing for the church to hold this belief. It makes complete sense. How would it make any sense for non-catholics to be married in a catholic church?

5) The first step in annulments is for your fiance to meet with the priest to discuss the steps necessary, and determine the exact kind of annulment needed (perhaps ligamen or lack of form, which would be pretty quick, or a full out annulment). Then he is given instructions on paperwork. This is up to him to complete quickly and turn it in quickly, because witnesses have to be contacted and give testimony. All of this gathering information takes time. Then, you have to wait for your turn in the tribunal. There are many cases being heard, so the time taken is your case waiting in line.

Chloeagh · November 2012

I don't know much about annulments, but it concerns me that you keep talking about what your parents what. He's converting because it's important to your parents and your parents will be so disappointed. What about what the two of you want? He shouldn't become Catholic just to please your parents and while you should get married in the Catholic church, you shouldn't do it just for appearances when you seem like you see nothing wrong with just getting married outside.

I encourage you to pray about this and talk to your priest to better understand why this annulment and your marriage within the Catholic church are so important. Also, sticking around this board will help you learn and understand a lot about Catholic marriages.

professorscience · November 2012

I would definitely also advise against trying to reserve some other space because you've suddenly been handed a setback. August is nine months away, so you might find that his annulment doesn't take very long at all (lack of form, etc.). And in case it does, talk with your venue and see if there's a way to push your date back a couple months.

I realize it can be very frustrating to think you have everything in order and then find out that something is wrong, but you have to remember that this is not about just one day out of 365 days -- it is the first day of your marriage. I think it's very important that you start it off right.

There are a lot of women on this board who have been through the annulment process. Some have been very short, others have taken longer. Please feel free to come back and vent or ask more questions if you need to!

lalaith50 · November 2012

I don't have much to add, but I understand how frustrated/shocked you are to suddenly find out that you need a Church annulment. But try to think of it this way- Aren't you GLAD that the Church takes marriage so seriously? It assumes that a marriage is valid until it has taken some serious time to determine otherwise. And this is how seriously the Church is going to take YOUR marriage.

Also, just to clarify, I don't think that his annulment will easily fall under "lack of form," since he isn't Catholic and therefore didn't have a "form" to follow?

Calypso1977 · November 2012

if being married in the Church is important to you then i would follow the proper process. sure you may be out some money if things do go through by August, but isnt your soul (and your FI's soul) worth more than money? many say they will just wed anyway in a civil ceremony then get a convalidation later but a convalidation, like an annulment, is not always a guarantee. your venue and vendors may very well allow you to postpone your dates and therefore you wont lose money.

your priest NEVER should have allowed you to set a date until he confirmed that both of you were free to marry. im sorry that happened.

maggieandrey · November 2012

I know first hand how frustrating this is. I'm the one getting an annulment. I was married by a JP to an unbaptized athiest, and I'm protestant, but the catholic church kind of sees it like - if it was good enough to you, it's good enough for them. And we found out in June, after planning for three months and starting marriage prep, after some incorrect advice from the priest. We were originally told I could do the short form only to find out I actually needed to go through the whole process. It can take 6 - 18 months depending on the archdiocese... and at that point, we had exactly 7 months.

Listen to the advice these ladies have to offer, I'm not catholic so I can't give you any advice in that regard, but agapecarrie knows the rules better than most of the priests I've had to deal with.

Do you have a good relationship with any of the priests in your archdiocese? We were able to rush my annulment because the priest from my FIL's parish works with the priest who was the judge on my case. It's unfortunate that this is the case, but who you know can help.

Also, going through the annulment process is horrendous. I was not prepared for how emotionally draining it was, and I honestly feel like the process was more emotionally scarring than the marriage I was annulling. It took me a couple days of reflection and prayer to even decide that I'd go through the process, and if I had felt forced to do it by my fiance and/or our families, I probably would have felt resentful to them for making me do it.

It has to be his decision, and you need to support him whichever way he chooses. I know this is going to come across really harsh - but if you can't support him as he makes the decision, I'd really suggest additional counseling to see if your priorities are in line.

Riss91 · November 2012

I just want to say that I am sorry that you are dealing with this frustration when you felt like you were "ready to go" with your wedding plans. Just take a few days to exhale and start tackling the task ahead. Many people don't realize all that is involved in annulments within the Church. I think your priest made an assumption that the annulment that was obtained was through the Church. However, you also made the assumption that a state annulment was "equal" to a Church annulment. So, try not to dwell on your feelings of resentment. Now is the time to take action. I applaud you and your FI for taking these important steps. It will be worth it to go through the annulment process and have a "clean" slate.

Please feel free to lean on us here, there are many ladies here with annulment experience that understand what you are going through!

bibliophile2010 · November 2012

I don't have much to add. I can see how you would feel frustrated by the terminology -- thinking things were good to go and then finding that they aren't. It is a truly unfortunate misunderstanding.

I would just encourage you to persevere in prayer and to continue pursuing a wedding in the Church. Like LaLaith says, if neither he nor his ex were Catholic, a lack of form annullment is out of the question, but, like OOT says, it sounds like there may well be grounds for an annulment. Meanwhile, talk to your vendors about applying your desposits to a later date.

Additionally, as others have said, one should covert for himself and himself alone -- because he believes the Church is Truth. If, at Easter, your FI does not feel that conviction, please encourage him to hold off on the sacraments until he can. That would in no way prevent you from having a valid Catholic wedding in the Church or raising your children Catholic.

I hope some of the others with annulment experience come in, but I want to offer my prayers, hugs, and encouragement. Please know we're here if you want to talk or vent or ask questions.

Resa77 · November 2012

Ditto PP's! And I wanted to let you know I'm so sorry for this setback. I'm sure it feels like a slap in the face becuse it's completely unexpected. If getting married in the Church is important to you, I truly think you should put plans on hold. Maybe you'll lose some money -- and that would be terrible! -- but at least you'll still have the sacraments.

agapecarrie · November 2012

It doesn't sound like its lack of form, but we can't assume anything here, because we never have the complete story (and most of the time, the posters don't have the complete story). You never know if his ex was baptized catholic and didn't know it herself. It happens more than you would think.

Just yesterday I was talking to someone who had no clue whether his ex wife was baptized or even baptzied catholic- they both converted after marriage (not a catholic wedding) and were told that the marriage was valid at the time. Now that he's divorced, a priest is telling him his marriage was never valid. He didn't even connect any dots till I asked him further details becuase someone is dropping the ball perhaps when he converted, perhaps now. And it all depends on where she was baptized... and he has no idea.

nataliek3987 · November 2012

All - thank you so much for your helpful comments so far. I am going to print them out and read through them this evening. Just wanted to add that when I posted last night I was extremely upset and frustrated and I hope my voicing that didn't come through as disrespect - I certainly understand and appreciate that there are rules to follow and I am not trying to short-circuit them, I think it's the fact that we have gotten different answers that is frustrating. We talked to another priest today (the one that I grew up with at my parents parish) and he said that if FI was not baptized catholic (I know this - he was baptized Lutheran) and she was not baptized Catholic (she was not baptized at all), then the marriage didn't "count" in the eyes of the church and we should not have a problem. My head is spinning and I'm not sure which source to believe as they are both priests that I respect.

Calypso1977 · November 2012

in any situation a church annulment must be obtained. once the papers are filed it goes through the process and the archdiocese and their lawyers will determine what type of annulment is needed. not counting in the eyes of the church doesnt mean that an annulment isnt needed, it just determines what type.

agapecarrie · November 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_questionvent-regarding-annulment-any-ideas-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e3bd6c91-96b1-457c-9346-f65651b4e54aPost:3abf0f06-7c30-4283-8702-cc7816658493">Re: Question/vent regarding annulment - any ideas, thoughts??</a>:
[QUOTE]All - thank you so much for your helpful comments so far. I am going to print them out and read through them this evening. Just wanted to add that when I posted last night I was extremely upset and frustrated and I hope my voicing that didn't come through as disrespect - I certainly understand and appreciate that there are rules to follow and I am not trying to short-circuit them, I think it's the fact that we have gotten different answers that is frustrating. We talked to another priest today (the one that I grew up with at my parents parish) and he said that if FI was not baptized catholic (I know this - he was baptized Lutheran) and she was not baptized Catholic (she was not baptized at all), then the marriage didn't "count" in the eyes of the church and we should not have a problem. My head is spinning and I'm not sure which source to believe as they are both priests that I respect.
Posted by nataliek3987[/QUOTE]

I'm wondering if maybe you missed word that he said. IT wasn't a "SACRAMENT" because both people weren't baptized, but it still could be presumed valid natural marriage. Again, the catholic church honors non-catholic marriages.

<div> However, another avenue maybe available to him-- possibly a dissolution of the bond via pauline or petrine priveldge. (This is due to his ex not being baptized at all, so it wasn't a sacrament). </div><div>
</div><div>This is NOT a situation that you can get reliable information in simple 5 minute conversations with priests in passing. They may be giving good advice from the information they have, but they might not have all the information they need, and then there are specific words used that are then changed in meaning when you don't understand the nuances and differences. There are too many variables and avenues that have to be looked at. It is very important for him to sit down with a priest (or annulment advocate) as soon as possible to start this process. </div>

amandajared · November 2012

uuuhhhh. you might want to push it back MUCH more. I am almost 16 months into my annulment, which is extremely simple. i was a child when I married, 17. All of my witnesses participated, and had their paperwork back to the church within a week, as did I and my ex.

Here we sit, and last month got a letter stating that they are now requestiong I see a court appointed counselor at $300/hr to determine what my level of maturity was when I married. i was 17, I had the maturity level of a child. We declined to do so and moved forward witht he process. i am not a criminal nor on trial, which is what this whole process has seemed like.

Not only do I have no bling faith in the catholic church, but FI's family who are al cathlic are starting to lose thiers as well. If this annulment is not granted, we will marry outside of the church anyways and he will return to the church by internal forum. The god he was raised to serve will forgive. This process is rediculous, but at least stick it through to the end to make sure you at least did what you could, even if youre denied.

amandajared · November 2012

Also-

I was never baptised, nor was the ex, who was not Catholic, and neither am I

agapecarrie · November 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_questionvent-regarding-annulment-any-ideas-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e3bd6c91-96b1-457c-9346-f65651b4e54aPost:f95663b8-3fb3-4219-a7e2-9ceddeba9ae5">Re: Question/vent regarding annulment - any ideas, thoughts??</a>:
[QUOTE]uuuhhhh. you might want to push it back MUCH more. I am almost 16 months into my annulment, which is extremely simple. i was a child when I married, 17. All of my witnesses participated, and had their paperwork back to the church within a week, as did I and my ex. Here we sit, and last month got a letter stating that they are now requestiong I see a court appointed counselor at $300/hr to determine what my level of maturity was when I married. i was 17, I had the maturity level of a child. We declined to do so and moved forward witht he process. i am not a criminal nor on trial, which is what this whole process has seemed like. Not only do I have no bling faith in the catholic church, but FI's family who are al cathlic are starting to lose thiers as well. If this annulment is not granted, we will marry outside of the church anyways and he will return to the church by internal forum. The god he was raised to serve will forgive. This process is rediculous, but at least stick it through to the end to make sure you at least did what you could, even if youre denied.
Posted by amandajared[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I don't think you understand what the internal forum is. And you definitely can't use it when you are presumptious about it.</div><div>
</div><div>To be so adamant to marry invalidly outside the church if you don't get your way shows a lot of lack of understanding of what marriage is...</div><div>
</div><div>Marriage lasts until death- the church is actually honoring you by having you go through this process, believing you when you said your vows. This has nothing to do with "forgiveness". This has to do with not blessing adultery.

</div>

Question/vent regarding annulment - any ideas, thoughts??

Re: Question/vent regarding annulment - any ideas, thoughts??

Choose Another Board

Search Boards