NWR: Thoughts on baptism (long)

musicalsunlight · July 2011

Hi ladies. The subject of baptism has been on my brain lately because two of my cousins were baptized last weekend.

To summarize, my family is Lutheran on both sides, and I grew up attending my grandma's church for Sunday school, VBS, etc. I went to a friend's church for youth group in HS. As you all likely know, the Lutheran church baptizes when the person is a baby or young child traditionally. My brothers and I all were. However my family (aside from my grandparents) are not very religious, though I'd say they still have some spiritual beliefs. (What Francis Chan would call a little cooler than"lukewarm") We did not go to church weekly as a family, I have mainly developed my faith on my own after middle school.

Anyway, so my aunt and uncle had my cousins (age 4 and 4 months) baptized last weekend and the whole thing was very uncomfortable. My aunt (who is from Mozambique and just moved here with my Uncle last year) was the primary reason that my dad and other uncle agreed to be the godfathers because they themselves are not religious much at all. So I just felt all strange listening to them take vows to bring my cousins up in the faith. It was all just a show and we were there to support my aunt even if not everyone was believing what they were saying. It left a weird taste in my mouth.

It led me to think about my own future children and their theoretical baptisms. I know other Christian sects baptize later in life. I just wonder if people still actually follow through with the covenant of what a godfather/mother means, etc. (FTR--my godparents did not) Or is it just something for show?

LOTS of rambling there. My main point was to open up discussion about baptism and how you/your church views it.

fpaemp2011 · July 2011

The church I was raised in (Southern Baptist) and the church DH and I are a part of now (Berean) do not in any way support baptism before a public profession of faith can be made. DH and I will not allow our children to be baptized until they can tell us why they want to do it, and we see that their decision to pray to receive Christ is genuine. Both of us know many kids our age now (DH included) who were baptized in preschool or elementary school after they raised their hand in VBS saying they had "prayed the prayer," but there was no discipleship to make sure they understood what salvation was. Many of them realized later that they were never saved in the first place, and just "went for a swim" at church.

I do believe that baptism should be done soon after salvation, as we are commanded to do in the Gospels. However, we believe that baptism is an outward expression of an inward reality, and nothing you physically do, or that anyone else does "for" you, can add to or take away from your salvation. We are justified by faith, not by faith and a ceremony. (Romans 4:1-11, 5:1, Ephesians 2:8)

Both of the churches do Parent/Child Dedication, where the parents stand in front of the church and vow to raise their child in the fear and admonition of the Lord, but no water is involved, and the point is made that this is the parent making the vow, and nothing happens to their child's soul at this point.

We believe that from conception, a child is protected by God until the moment they reject the gospel. As for those who are in areas that have never heard the gospel, we believe that God reveals Himself in ways we don't understand, but that they are still accountable, and we must do everything we can to reach and tell them. (There are 6,750 people groups that are less than 2% Evangelical Christians: 3,684 have not been engaged by any Evangelical group {531 of them have a population over 100.000} and 1,951 people groups have not been engaged by any faith group.) http://public.imb.org/globalresearch/Pages/default.aspx

My brothers and I were dedicated when we were infants, but we don't do godparents. The church members vow to support the parents as one big "godfamily."

Personally, I prayed to receive Christ and ask forgiveness from my sins when I was 15. If I had died before that point, I would have gone to hell, even though I had been in church every Sunday since mom was pregnant with me. I avoided baptism, though, until I was 17. I knew that I should have done it as soon as I got saved, but I was stubborn and didn't want to. I was refusing to fully surrender my whole life to Christ. As soon as I made the decision to be baptized, though, everything changed. Like the worship song says, "I never knew surrender could feel so free."

I had been using my salvation as a "Get outta Hell free card," and nothing else. I wasn't living my life for Christ. Choosing to follow Him in baptism, though, and tell my chuch that I was actively living for Him, totally changed everything. I could feel God calling me to Special Education, to go to Liberty, to go to NYC on a mission trip, I started teaching childrens classes and youth group studies...it felt like so many doors opened after I was obedient.

*edited for they're/their/there issues...stupid summer brain...

letyourselfgo · July 2011

I'm LCMS Lutheran. FI and I will have any future children that we have baptized within a few months of their birth.

I was not born Lutheran. I was Christened in a Baptist Church and my Godparents were extremely close to me, although not in a religious sense. I formally converted to Judaism (my Father was of Jewish descent, my Mother was not) at eighteen and came to Christianity again at age 26, baptized shortly after my 27th birthday.

My convictions on God and Christ are this:

God made everything and keeps an eye on everything, including us. His son Jesus died to redeem us from our sins. We aren't perfect, and never will be, but can ask forgiveness from God for our shortcomings. We are supposed to have a close relationship with God and can talk to him whenever and his word is inerrant.

We are concieved in sin and therefore are born imperfect....hence baptism ASAP.

musicalsunlight · July 2011

I find the Baptist belief on baptism more in line with how I believe it should work, but as a Lutheran I guess it is something I wouldn't have been able to do. But there is the running joke that as Lutherans we do it to "save the babies". I just really have no idea what the actual theory is behind it.

ravenray · July 2011

Ah a deep question.
The Orthodox Church believes in baptisms 40 days after birth (40 days is a very important number in the Orthodox Church. I can give more explanation if needed). At that time a saint’s name is chosen for the child (or generally given at birth) and the godparents are chosen by the parents. They are suppose to guild the child in their spiritual life. The Orthodox do not believe that baptism guarantees salvation but it is a sacrament and it is very important. In the Orthodox Church we say: “I was saved, I am saved, and I am being saved” Salvation is not something (for us) that is given once and then forgotten about. It is a constant committing one’s life, through the sacraments of the Church, to God.
Baptism is a way of doing exactly what Christ did. Dying to our sins (spitting on the devil and renouncing him (when this is a child the Godparents do it for the child)), being buried in the grave (the full emersion in the water) and resurrection (coming out of the water). It is a beautiful. Then the baby is clothed in white and the Priest and the godparents carry the baby around the icon stand while the choir sings:"As many as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia." Then the child is anointed with oil and 4 locks (little) of hair are cut from each side of the head. The hair is the first sacrificial offering someone makes.

I am not totally sure I want my children to be baptized as children but I am trying to be open to that and realize it is one of the ways to show obedience to God through following the commands of the Church. So this maybe a way for me to do that. I know my baptism was beautiful and I enjoyed it very much.

SoonToBeGenao · July 2011

I was raised "Catholic" and I say that in quotes not to offend any one but because my parents always told us we were- we went to classes, got baptized as a baby, received communion at 7 and confirmation at 13. However, I was not brought up in a God centered house. We went to chuch twice a year- Christmas and Easter. I never had a Christian influence over me. When I was 19 a good friend brought me to his church and I started feeling God's voice and peace over me. I began to seek Him. When I was 22 I gave myself over to the Lord and accepted Jesus as my savior. I spend a few years diving deeper and deeper into the Bible to truly learn God's word and will. I joined a womens group Bible study. After a couple of years of attending church regularly, joining small groups and devoting myself to God, I was convicted about getting baptized. I know my parent's baptized me as a child, but since I hadn't made any outward expression of my faith, or chose to follow God myself- AND since my "God parents" did NOTHING to teach me about the Lord at any point in my life.... I decided to get baptized (of my own choice and outward expression) last summer July 31, 2010 at 24 years old.

yodacub · July 2011

I belong to a Christian Reformed church, and we baptize babies. We liken it to circumcision in the OT, as a sign and symbol that this child is loved by God, and the parents and the congregation make promises to love this child and raise him/her in the faith (no godparents involved). There are NT references where entire households are baptized. It's not a way of salvation for infants, it's a sign that they are covenant children and will be raised as such. When old enough to understand, we make public profession of faith. I was 16 and decided that my faith was not only that of my parents, but should be my own as well.

This said, I don't believe that not baptizing children is wrong. I think making the promises to love and raise your child in the Lord is important, and I think making the decision once you are old enough to understand and acknowledging it publicly is important. Baptism is appropriate at either spot.

monkeysip · July 2011

As Catholics, FI and I will baptize after birth. The difference is in what you believe baptism actually does. Catholics believe that all people are born with sin, so baptism actually cleanses us with the power of the Holy Spirit. It's not a symbol, but an actual cleansing. The power comes from the spirit, not from us, so it doesn't require us to do anything but receive it. So even babies can do that.

We cannot work for own salvation, but must receive the graces God gives us. In order for a child to grow up in the faith, they must be provided with these graces as soon as possible. To Catholics, not baptizing children is like the spiritual form of not feeding or clothing our young children.

Like circumcision brought infants into the old covenant, baptism brings infants into the new covenant.

The Acts of the Apostles includes many instances of Paul and Peter baptizing entire households (which presumably include children) based on the faith of the head of the household, including Cornelius, Lydia, and the jailer (10:47-48, 16:15, 16:33)

mrandmrsbrist · July 2011

I was raised in a Southern Baptist church, like Emily, but not in the South. I grew up in the Northwest, which has historically been one of the most "unchurched" areas in the US.

I made a serious commitment to Christ at 15. I had "prayed the prayer" a few times before that, but never meant it like I did at 15. I was baptized on my 16th birthday. I had put off baptism before because I knew I wasn't ready. I had a pastor that stressed the seriousness of the commitment.

Because I believe that is a serious commitment, I believe that a small child, or even an infant, should not be baptized.

Special2011 · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_nwr-thoughts-baptism-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:3c8e03b3-7a59-4798-be9f-c55be6020e39Post:fc449e39-9d5b-433a-8d52-06e845c9d1a1">Re: NWR: Thoughts on baptism (long)</a>:
[QUOTE]I belong to a Christian Reformed church, and we baptize babies. We liken it to circumcision in the OT, as a sign and symbol that this child is loved by God, and the parents and the congregation make promises to love this child and raise him/her in the faith (no godparents involved). There are NT references where entire households are baptized. It's not a way of salvation for infants, it's a sign that they are covenant children and will be raised as such. When old enough to understand, we make public profession of faith. I was 16 and decided that my faith was not only that of my parents, but should be my own as well. This said, I don't believe that not baptizing children is wrong. I think making the promises to love and raise your child in the Lord is important, and I think making the decision once you are old enough to understand and acknowledging it publicly is important. Baptism is appropriate at either spot.
Posted by yodacub[/QUOTE]

This is what I grew up with. FI is baptist, thus has a hard time understanding why I was baptized as an infant and not when I accepted Christ. We've talked about it quite a bit and he does not feel comfortable baptizing our infants. I think we'll have to see where God has us when children do come along.

Purple&7 · July 2011

We had a discussion about this at my church camp that I worked this summer. Some of the kids wanted to be baptized, the kids were between 5-8, but the leaders were having a hard time deciding whether or not to let them do it because it is such a big commitment. They want to make sure that the kids really understand what it means to be baptized.

I'm Pentecostal and at birth we dedicate the baby to the church, like Emily stated. When we are old enough to make the commitment we can be baptized. I have not yet been baptized. I have "prayed the prayer" and am trying my best to live a God centered life, but I just don't think I'm ready yet. I do hope to have it done within the next few years.

iamjoesgurl · July 2011

The church I grew up in does not do infant baptisms but they do baby dedications where the parents and the church agree to raise the child to know Christ and the gospel. We didn't have godparents so that is kind of a foreign concept to me.

Musical - It seems like by what you described, it would be hard to raise a child and influence them toward a Christian faith that you don't wholeheartedly believe in. So I think I agree with you. I would have felt awkward too.

I believe in baptism as a profession of your faith and it is impossible for a baby to profess their faith. I would not judge anyone for feeling differently, but that is my personal conviction.

And Musical - haven't seen you around here in a while and I've missed seeing you. Your sig pic is beautiful.

musicalsunlight · July 2011

Thank you all for your very interesting responses! It has really made me think about what I feel is my belief with baptism.

iamjoes-- Thank you for the compliment about the photo.

I have been very busy until recently at work so I haven't been on the boards as much. Good to be back though!

xstarx05x · July 2011

I grew up Methodist and was "baptised" as an infant, but after I truly gave my life to Christ, I was baptised in a Baptist church (a few years ago in Australia). The church I go to now (an Evangelical church in NJ) does dedications, which I believe are nice for blessing your child's walk with God.

But then comes the question, how old can you really give your life to God?

I also had confirmation when I was 14 (I think), which confirms my Christian faith. But even though you understand things *much* more than when you're an infant, you change a lot in the next several years. There's a lot of self discovery and your mind is still developing until you're in your early 20s.

That's not to say you shouldn't get baptised until you're 25, i'm just babbling. In the case of my faith, it might have helped if I had gone to a church that dug a bit deeper than superficial traditions.

faith415 · July 2011

I was raised in a non-denominational church. Like others, we do baby dedications. When the baby is born, the minister asks the family members to commit to bringing up the child in Christ and prays over the infant. Once a child is old enough to decide for themselves they are then able to profess their faith in Christ and be baptized.

Personally I prefer this because I think that it's important for a person to make that commitment of faith on their own. I know a lot of people who were baptized as a child and have skated along as a "Christian" without ever acknowledging God because they were baptized as a baby. I believe that acknowledging faith in God as your own, and not just your family's is very important. Baptism is the outward showing of your belief.

That's not to say that someone who was baptized as an infant can't later choose to have their own personal relationship with Christ. I'll raise my children up in a Christian household, I just wont baptize my children till they make their own decision.

ochemjenn · July 2011

Thank you for starting this thread, musical! I haven't really figured out what I think about baptism (and was not baptised was a child), so I like reading others' thoughts.

DH is Episcopalian, so he was baptized as a baby. He actually has two sets of godparents. I'll have to ask DH what role they played when he was growing up, but he's more on a friendship level with both sets now (ie, not mentor/mentee). One of his godfathers was a reader at our wedding. We're also close with his brother's godparents, but again, I don't know what role they played when he was growing up.

As a sidenote: I hadn't seen the phrase "lukewarm Christian" until this weekend, and now I've seen it in the newspaper AND here!

xstarx05x · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_nwr-thoughts-baptism-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:3c8e03b3-7a59-4798-be9f-c55be6020e39Post:03a7bb18-5f6c-40ae-bc5d-a6dd6b411ea2">Re: NWR: Thoughts on baptism (long)</a>:
[QUOTE] As a sidenote: I hadn't seen the phrase "lukewarm Christian" until this weekend, and now I've seen it in the newspaper AND here!
Posted by ochemjenn[/QUOTE]

<div>FYI :)</div><div>
<div><strong><em>Paul's letter to Laodicea: The Lukewarm Church</em></strong></div><div><em>14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,</em></div><div><em>‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are <u>lukewarm</u>, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.</em></div><div>
</div><div>Hot water is useful for cleaning and cold for drinking, but lukewarm is useless and unpleasant. Interesting comparison to people: If we don't have a fiery faith, God would rather us have no faith than to say that we're Christians and show no passion. (Definitely how I used to be)</div><div>
</div><div>Fun fact!: Laodicea's water supply was most likely lukewarm. According to achaeology, an aqueduct carried water from hot springs in Hierapolis (Colossae had cold pure water).</div></div>

xstarx05x · July 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_nwr-thoughts-baptism-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:3c8e03b3-7a59-4798-be9f-c55be6020e39Post:45ee561a-5b77-45ac-85ec-9c4881b2bdc9">Re: NWR: Thoughts on baptism (long)</a>:
[QUOTE]I grew up Methodist and was "baptised" as an infant, but after I truly gave my life to Christ, I was baptised in a Baptist church (a few years ago in Australia). The church I go to now (an Evangelical church in NJ) does dedications, which I believe are nice for blessing your child's walk with God. But then comes the question, how old can you really give your life to God? I also had confirmation when I was 14 (I think), which confirms my Christian faith. But even though you understand things *much* more than when you're an infant, you change a lot in the next several years. There's a lot of self discovery and your mind is still developing until you're in your early 20s. That's not to say you shouldn't get baptised until you're 25, i'm just babbling. In the case of my faith, it might have helped if I had gone to a church that dug a bit deeper than superficial traditions.
Posted by xstarx05x[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Note: I don't see anything wrong with baptising your baby, I just see it more as a Christening or Dedication since they aren't making their own decision. Like I said, it's a nice way to bless your child's walk with God.</div><div>
</div><div>I believe getting baptised is a very personal decision and it's important to make that proclamation for yourself when you accept Christ as your savior and put your life in his hands. I also wanted to add some of my favorite verses about baptism:</div><div>
</div><div><em><strong>Acts 2:38</strong> Each of you must <u>repent</u> of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the <u>forgiveness</u> of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the <u>Holy Spirit</u>.</em></div><div><em>
</em></div><div><em><strong>Acts 22:16</strong> What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized. <u>Have your sins washed away</u> by calling on the name of the Lord.’</em></div><div><em>
</em></div><div><em><strong>Colossians 2:12</strong> For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him <u>you were raised to new life</u> because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.</em></div><div><em>
</em></div><div><em><span style="font-style:normal;" class="Apple-style-span">I was fully immersed at my baptism a few years ago. That's how first baptisms were, the symbolism is beautiful, and it is truly a spiritual experience :)</span></em></div>

NWR: Thoughts on baptism (long)

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