Engaged or Not discussion changes everything... (Long)

dwest2201 · June 2010

Okay so the back story is in another thread called Ugh, men! If you want thewhole scoop but basically BF was talking about us getting married next year and discussing honeymoon and bachelor party stuff in front of his entire immediate family over the weekend. I told him "cart before the horse, back up" and it was dropped shortly after. Anyways along with the fact that we are moving in together and his parents do not approve of living in sin per say sparked a conversation about whetherwe are or are not engaged. We had discussed marriage, a time line for when and vaguely where before as well as some ring discussions and things like that.

I told BF well you know the definition of engaged is really just having the intention of getting married and obviously we have that covered. He said "NO! Engaged is with a ring and we will be one day";. I said all I'm saying is that a ring isn't needed for an engagement or even a marriage technically and that some people do without either bc of monetary reasons or just preference. He said "well, I'm not some people, we're getting engaged with a ring end of discussion"; I went to say okay and he cut in "babe, drop it please" so I did.

We also talked more about where to get married than we had previously, he's catholic and I'm christian (non-denominational)... we go to a HUGE christian church that we both really like but often go to catholic mass with his family for special occasions or just whenever they ask us to go with. He knows that I want to get married in a church since I didn't before (exH refused) and asked if I was set on getting married at our church? He said he likes the services there but feels like he would rather get married in a smaller church, but knows that I don't want to get married in a catholic church. I said well I'm not catholic and I want to get married in a church that we actually attend at least sometimes not a random place we will never return to. He says well I'm pretty sure you mentioned not converting to catholicism a long time ago so I won't even ask that. I said well tell me the truth would you want to get married at St. blank? He said I know we aren't going to so I haven't thought much about it. I said me aside would YOU want to get married there? He said yes, if it was up to just me I would get married in a catholic church, raise my children catholic and if I could afford it I'd send my kids to catholic schools too. I was dumbfounded.... we've talked for 2 years about public schools in a good school district and attending my/our non-denominational church.

I told him that it was important for him to share how he felt about things like this even if he was willing to compromise on some or all of it that we shoudl talk about it. He said I'm compromising and I told him no you're giving in without even telling me what is important to you and that is not good babe. He said that he would rather be with me and have me be happy because he knows that will make him happy. I said well I love you and want to be with you too is there a compromise between the two? He said I don't think there is because you can't marry me there unless you convert and I know you don't want to. I said I'm not 100% against it (my Dad's entire family is catholic but my sister and I weren't raised catholic because my mom didn't want us to be)... I like my church and I plan to continue to attend there, I know that you like it there too. If it were okay for me to go through the classes and convert but still attend our church regularly and go to mass with your family sometimes (maybe half the time) then I would be open to it. He said that wouldn't be a problem with him or his family. I told him that we should look into it and that my only issue would be with raising the future children and having my son who will not be raised catholic being the odd man out which is something that we can worry about when/if the time comes. He told me that I didn't have to decide to convert right now but if I was open to thinking about it he appreciated that and I said definitely thinking about it we'll have to look into what all is involved.

So we are not engaged, but we will be eventually and it will be with a ring because he said so. And now I'm probably getting married in the catholic church and possibly converting as well... whoa. I have to figure out if I need an annulment (my first marriage was an outdoor non-religious ceremony so I so I don't think so, but if I need that I have to get on it cause it apparently takes a while).

Anyone have any knowledge about converting to catholicism?

Ana_2985 · June 2010

Umm no, not much. Converting to Catholicism is a longish process. You have to attend RCIA classes before you are baptized and receive the other sacraments. Anytime I've seen someone convert, it's always been at the Easter vigil mass, though I can't say whether that is mandatory or just tradition.

Also, I know churches can have different ways of handling things, but in my experience it is not necessary to convert in order to be married in a Catholic church. You just need to promise to raise any children as Catholics. Just something to think about.

I'll be honest, that was long and I might not have followed you in some places, but you should really think about how YOU feel about all of these changes. You don't NEED to agree with everything your BF says. Take some time to really think about what was said and how these things will affect your family and then have another conversation about everything.

leia1979 · June 2010

Wow, that was a lot! I've had two friends get married in Catholic ceremonies who aren't Catholic (one Jewish, the other Buddhist), so it's worth inquiring with the specific church. They just had to take classes, but neither converted.

It sounds like a lot of stuff came out in your discussion. Good that these things are coming out now, because it sounds like there's a bit for both of you to think about and discuss further.

I admit, the way I read this, I'm a little worried about how your BF treats you. I know very little about your situation, so I could be totally wrong--it's just my gut reaction to the way this and your previous post are written.

hetshup · June 2010

I'm getting married in the Catholic church and I am not converting, it really depends on your diocese. That being said, I think that there may be some more issues and you should really get those figured out before you move forward. We don't want you hurt, and I worry you will.

Good luck D

katanne9 · June 2010

Well that's quite a conversation.

I don't know a lot about converting to Catholicism. But I do agree with Ana. It sounds like you need to take some time and think about what YOU want. I know, for me, this would be a very big deal.

Now, take this all with a grain of salt, but I thought you had to agree with raise your children Catholic. How would your son factor into that? Is that something you are okay doing?

I'm sure if was a difficult conversation, but it sounds like a lot was said that needed to be put out there. So kudos to you two for that.

**Mutley** · June 2010

That is a lot to process. I would take some time to really think through how you feel, indepedent of your relationship with your boyfriend. I would take extra care in terms of how any decisions will affect your son. I also would put any plans about moving in together on hold until you know what you want as individuals, as a couple and as a family.

I do believe that you will need an annulment in order to get married in the Catholic church. This can be a very lengthy process. You may not have to convert as PPs have stated.

chipypony · June 2010

You really do need to think about what is important to you. Also, as PP said you do not need to convert but you will have to promise to raise your kids catholic. If religion or things like that are important to you, then it is something you really need to sit down and think about. You are making decisions that not only effect you but also your son. Im not sure on the whole annullment thing though.

Bec20 · June 2010

First off, you shouldn't have to convert. You won't be able to have a full mass with communion (since you can not receive it), but you don't have to convert to have a Catholic ceremony.

Second, you will not have to agree to raise any children as Catholics. That is something only the Catholic party will have to do. I'm pretty sure it only applies to children that are born from that marriage.

While it isn't acceptable for him to tell you that you need to get married in the church, you do need to understand why it would be important to him. If a Catholic person gets married outside of the Catholic church, their marriage will not be recognized and they won't have received the sacrament. It is quite difficult to get a dispensation from a priest to have the wedding elsewhere, so this may be what he is concerned about.

If you do decide to get married in the Catholic church, you will need to get an annulment. That can be a lengthy process, so you should start that as soon as/if you decide to get married in a Catholic ceremony.

Ana_2985 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_engaged-not-discussion-changes-everything-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:18b3b743-930a-485a-a007-3bc345af5b3aPost:3bc06af4-0381-450b-89da-59ab04b2a72a">Re: Engaged or Not discussion changes everything... (Long)</a>:
[QUOTE] Second, you will not have to agree to raise any children as Catholics. That is something only the Catholic party will have to do. I'm pretty sure it only applies to children that are born from that marriage.
Posted by Bec20[/QUOTE]

Right. But I'm sure she is hoping that any children her BF has after they are married are also her children. So essentially, yes, you do need to agree to raise your children as Catholics.

Whether you follow through with that or not is another story.

PaigeMcC · June 2010

Oh hunny. I just want to hug you *hugs* PPs have really given you great advice. Take a long look at what you want to do and how this will effect you and your son. I think there is a lot to think about here and it will involve many more conversations with yourself and with BF.

We're here for you, darlin'.

jeanacorina · June 2010

Wow. I don't know about you, but to me, converting would be a HUGE deal. Josh and I talked several years ago about our difference in religious upbringings. I told him then I would never convert just for a wedding or even for another person. It would have to be something I really felt was right and wanted to do 100% for my relationship with God.

I'm not trying to press my beliefs on you, but I hope you'll really sit down and think about what this means to you. Do some research. If you don't HAVE to convert, would you still do it? Ask some questions about future and current children, past marriages, everything you can think of. Get answers.

It's good that you asked your BF what HE wants, regardless of what he thinks you want. Josh and I occasionally have the issue where he'll just go along with whatever and suddenly he feels like I've steamrolled him because he didn't speak up. You need to know what your BF really wants. But you also need to know without a doubt what YOU really want.

I ditto the advice of putting the move on hold. Not because you shouldn't live with your BF, and not because you guys aren't meant to be. Just because this is a big big big BIG deal, and I really hope you'll proceed with your eyes wide open and with knowledge about the situation.

Good luck. *hugs*

nefariousmango · June 2010

Everyone's had good advice, my gut reaction is that you both need to spend more time thinking about your own wants and needs, and then have this conversation again.

As far as the engaged or not question: When I got the ring we'd been living together for nearly 3 years, had joint everything, and all our friends kept mis-introducing us as husband and wife... and I still didn't feel engaged until I was planning a wedding! Being committed is not the same as being engaged, but you also don't need a ring to be engaged.

*hugs* Good luck!

bethsmiles · June 2010

I agree with nefariousmango, it sounds to me like you both need to figure out what you want independently Compromise is important but it sounds like you are both just giving in completely to the other person.

I also agree with Jeanna that converting is a big deal. You shouldn't convert if you don't truely believe the teachings of the church.

There is alot of good advice in this thread, I hope you listen to some of it

Bec20 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_engaged-not-discussion-changes-everything-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:18b3b743-930a-485a-a007-3bc345af5b3aPost:a67e4504-7954-4467-9116-4c00fd46d83c">Re: Engaged or Not discussion changes everything... (Long)</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Engaged or Not discussion changes everything... (Long) : Right. But I'm sure she is hoping that any children her BF has after they are married are also her children. So essentially, yes, you do need to agree to raise your children as Catholics. Whether you follow through with that or not is another story.
Posted by Ana_2985[/QUOTE]

Well, since they are both Christian it isn't as big of a difference. However, if she were to talk to her children about her beliefs that would be fine. I was raised Catholic, as my mother is Catholic, but my father's beliefs were also discussed to my sister and I.

dwest2201 · June 2010

Sorry for the long post. And I'm going to go ahead and apologize cause this one will probably be long too! Just a few facts that might clarify things for some people...

I am Christian and have been raised "in the church" it was just a non-denominational church. BF and I attend my Christian church almost every week, I volunteer there on a regular basis and do community service projects through them regularly as well. My son LOVES our church and cried when we had to skip going last weekend due to having multiple graduation parties in one day. Most of my family is Catholic, my mother chose not to raise her children as Catholic though. The ONLY issue that I have with Catholicism is that I feel that it is a little close minded regarding other issues. I've been raised to believe that God is all loving and forgiving and that is really my only hang up. Of course having my son from my first marriage that will no be raised Catholic would also be an issue that we would have to address, teaching all children about both sets of beliefs possibly?

BF was raised Catholic, went to private Catholic schools from grades 1-12, public college. He attends my/our Christian church regularly and he really likes the messages and atmosphere there... but he still considers himself Catholic and says that he feels the need to go to mass and worship to feel as close to God as he likes to at times.

I have not decided that I am definitely going to get married in his family church yet, but I am considering it. I would hate to deprive him from something that he has dreamed of for his entire life. I have attended a few masses with his family and enjoyed it, the message is usually good just very monotone. Our church is livelier, more upbeat and the message is translated to relate to real life today so I just feel like it speaks directly to my heart often. I can't even count the number of times that I have left there having been sobbing in service because what was said touched me dearly. Sometimes it's about relationships, deaths, adoption, growing our relationship with God... lots of things just really hit home with me there more so than anywhere else. I am not one who cries very often so tears in public is pretty big.

I can't explain it but I am really in tune with my church, but I don't feel like I need to get married there simply because service is held in the auditorium that seats 6,000 people and even though they have a chapel for marriages and funerals I have never stepped foot into it. If I attended service in a chapel at my church I think that I would refuse to get married anywhere else. Also, the two pastors that I feel closest to do not do weddings... the ones that do I've never met before. That and the fact that my church is non-denominational Christian I will not be thrown out or looked down upon at all for either getting married in another church (Catholic or not) or even converting to Catholicism makes me consider his wants. Obviously I would be compromising some, but I honestly think that him marrying me outside of the Catholic church and his marriage to me not being accepted would hurt him more than he wants to admit to me. It's all about compromise and I'm at least willing to find out what all is involved and if I can marry him there without converting that might be the best solution for everyone.

We will definitely be having another conversation about this and then we will have to go see the priest and get the ball rolling on an annulment since I've heard and read that they can take a while. I'm hoping that the fact that my previous marriage was non-religious that will nullify it quickly in their eyes.

leia and others what are your concerns as far as the way he treats me. I know that he was drunk and rude but this is not usually the case at all. 99.99% of the time he treats me wonderfully. BF is an amazing person, the best boyfriend that I have ever had and he treats my son better than a lot of guys (unfortunately) treat their own children. I was married before but only because I was young and dumb.... I thought that I loved him, I was a little uneasy about marrying him so young but thought we would grow and mature together... not the case. That marriage wasn't a mistake but definitely a lesson learned... I wouldn't have my son if it wasn't for that and I wouldn't be as wise as I am without the lessons that I learned. BF is the love of my life, I have no doubt in my mind that we are meant to be together.

catemeg · June 2010

Yes, definitely take some time to find out what's important for YOU. It's great that you've gotten him to open up so that he doesn't just sacrifice. Now's the time for you to both assess what's really important and then have a conversation about compromise.

If you can get married in a Catholic church without converting, that might be an ideal situation. Raising your son and any future children as Catholics depends on your personal views, along with a frank and honest discussion with your boyfriend. Catholic school isn't necessarily just for Catholics - I went to one as an Episcopalian, and loved the education (except for religion classes, but my parents always encouraged me to take them as history lessons and think for myself). It was a great contrast for me to have religion classes at school then Sunday School at my parents' church. I got to really analyze everything for myself, with my parents' support.

Eventually I realized I didn't believe any of it, so now I'm atheist. My boyfriend is also athiest, so religion is not so much of an issue for us. The one thing is that his mother is Italian Catholic, and my Dad's parents are Irish Catholic, so I think we're going to have a pre-wedding prayer service before the Rehearsal Dinner to bless the wedding - it's our way of compromising for our families. Also, any children we have will be baptized in the Catholic church, but mostly because it doesn't mean anything to us but will mean a lot to our families.

Engaged or Not discussion changes everything... (Long)

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