NFP methods...

TerriandJoe · September 2010

Hi! So I finally got around to buying Taking charge of your fertilty and that book is awesome! I wish I had gotten it months ago!

Anyway, I am loving the temp shift sign asit clearly indicates when I am no longer fertile.

However, since we started in April learning the Creigton method (which I never really like by the way) I'm trying to suggest to my husband that we switch methods. Unfortunately our creigton teacher is local, was available at the time and was recommended from a priest at his church. Whereby, he seems to think TCOYF is a book that I heard about from theknot.

(BTW - Creigton teacher says she has never heard of book, or the knot and said taking my temp would confuse me.)

Last night I called a couple that teaches sympto-thermal and she said she could meet with us once and then we could try the couple to couple leagues at-home course, but not sure how informative that would be. (The are too far for us to go to the classs that she is starting next week.) She seemed very understanding with my frustration with creigton, for that reason alone I would love to go to her. But it's way to far during the week.

So, has anyone used the couple to couple leagues at home course?

OR has anyone "switched" methods? And what were your feelings about both creigton and sympto-thermal? How can I convince my husband?

agapecarrie · September 2010

switching methods can be confusing at first because of the different terminology.

-I would definitely caution you against relying too much on temp. This is a SECONDARY sign only. Its only for cross checking, not as the main sign of fertility. Creighton method makes you look very detailed at CM so that you can see the difference. It definitely takes time to learn. Creighton also does not have "conservative use". Its either yes or no.

-If you ever have fertility problems, or have a hard time conceiving, the NFP docs use creighton to diagnose and for Napro technology.

I wrote a PM to someone else about the philosophical differences between the 2 methods that I will send your way.

After saying all this though, you use whichever method works best for you. If you have a routine and get regular sleep, temps are more reliable, etc.

caitriona87 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-methods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:9cc64964-fd1f-44af-9565-0010de7f1455Post:f9739724-1ab4-4e99-889a-01d718bfde98">Re: NFP methods...</a>:
[QUOTE]switching methods can be confusing at first because of the different terminology. -I would definitely caution you against relying too much on temp. This is a SECONDARY sign only. Its only for cross checking, not as the main sign of fertility. Creighton method makes you look very detailed at CM so that you can see the difference. It definitely takes time to learn. Creighton also does not have "conservative use". Its either yes or no. -If you ever have fertility problems, or have a hard time conceiving, the NFP docs use creighton to diagnose and for Napro technology. I wrote a PM to someone else about the philosophical differences between the 2 methods that I will send your way. After saying all this though, you use whichever method works best for you. If you have a routine and get regular sleep, temps are more reliable, etc.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Is there any way you could send me the philosophical differences as well? We learned STM/CCL and were happy with it, but I may look into other methods for postpartum since I hear consistent temping with a newborn can be tricky. =)

Calypso1977 · September 2010

yes, please PM me that too agape, if you dont mind!

not knowing anything abotu creighton, it seems like that's a great method for hellping you learn the differen mucus readings, etc. i'm not sure how taking temp could confuse you, but rather it would just add to it.

i think whatever method you use, you have to like it and be comfortable with it. it sounds like you dont like creighton all that much.

i self taught usign TCOYF, but others on here said they had a good experience with CCLI.

bibliophile2010 · September 2010

Can I add myself as another for your PM, Agape? I'm really struggling to figure out which would be the best option for me. My doc teaches both, so that only adds to the confusion, on my part.

TerriandJoe · September 2010

Thanks for the thoughts!

I asked about getting a thermometer before the wedding. Thats when she told me it would confuse me. So, after we met with her again after our honeymoon, she said in another few cycles we could start using yellow stamps. Ok. that still didn't sit well with me. I want to know clearly when i can have sex with my husband and not worry about possibly getting pregnant.

So, after that meeting, I went and bought a thermometer and waited until my July period to start temping. Started entering data on fertility friend and tcoyf. The temp sign is what is completely ingnored in creighton -they just have you looking for CM. With Sympto-thermal (using the info I got out of the book) I clearly could see when I ovulated as a result of the temp shift.

My husband, doesn't feel comforable with "the temperature method" as he calls it because it wasn't the metjhod the priest at his church referred us too. So I need what ever info I can have to get him to be willing to switch.

mica178 · September 2010

Could you please PM me too? As my wedding date is creeping up, maybe I shoud start thinking about birth control. Ooph.

bel138 · September 2010

Yeah, I'm switching. I tried sympto-thermal from TCOYF and it was a big, fat fail. I don't have a temp shift and my mucus is...I don't know. I also have some sort of underlying pathology that my doctor refuses to address, other than to "regulate" me with BC. I'm on day 56 of my cycle right now, and I peed on two sticks, which were negative. Soo...September 13th is our first meeting with our Creighton teacher and it can't come soon enough.

agapecarrie · September 2010

yellow stamps are GREAT. It sounds like you might have an extra minor health issue that is causing more than the textbook CM. This is what creighton is for. Trust me, you do NOT want to stop creighton with this. ST won't help with this. Creighton is the best option-- you WILL learn, I promise. It takes awhile, especially if you have yellow stamp stuff. (If its from a cervical eversion, you can actually have this condition taken care of so you don't need to use yellow stamps anymore). PLEASE stick with it.

The thermometer right now is helping you cross check, but see, you are relying on it solely. You can't do this. You must learn the difference between the yellow stamp Mucous and fertile mucous. Creighton can help you with this--- have you not gotten a picture book? Please be patient... they have a standardized way of teaching it and slowly introducing the yellow stamps (yellow stamps are equivalent to green stamps for purposes of avoiding pregnancy-- they are not "iffy" ). the yellow is there for the medical purpose of accurately reporting what you see.

Calypso1977 · September 2010

**off to get more info on Creighton**

TerriandJoe · September 2010

I'm not relying on the temp solely, if I was I would have ignored the CM that also happened that day. But I had cramps (which are quite possibly ovulatory pain) which our teacher wont discuss. I took health store pill tablets because she thought it would help. I'm not interested in getting laser zapped down there. And she seems to get enjoyment from saying the word "lubricative" about a dozen times during our lesson.

I told my husband, that I would rather be intimate in the 10 or so days past ovulation when I am no longer fertile, than worry about whats a safe day in the pre-ovulatory days. Our instructor had me to the point of worrying that I am likely to miscarry because I have only a two day luteal stage! So i was set to have to take more drugs.

Thankfully, I can rest easy now. Granted, I may not be 100% but for the sake of TTA, I'd like to at least know when I can be initimate with mt husband.

I will continue to monitor my fertility, but for right now, I saw a temp shift last month and it has made me much more relaxed. Creigton was getting very frustrating, trying to decipher what type of mucus I had. And the terminology! The Symto-thermal descriptions make so much more sense! Sticky - creamy - eggwhite. Sounds pretty basic to me. I'm sure most people can relate to those textures.
Creamy isn't even an option in Creigton.

I'm just fruistrated. Anyway, I found two taechers that teach symptothermal about an hour from us. Now I jsut have to work with them (and DH) to find a time we all can meet.

Thanks so much!

bel138 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-methods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:9cc64964-fd1f-44af-9565-0010de7f1455Post:0249ba03-1903-4976-a1c9-a248fdd5fff8">Re: NFP methods...</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm not interested in getting laser zapped down there....

Our instructor had me to the point of worrying that I am likely to miscarry because I have only a two day luteal stage!
Posted by TerriandJoe[/QUOTE]

You may not want "zapped down there' right now, but you may change your mind when it comes time for children and your CM won't support sperm motility.

From a strictly medical standpoint, you are likely (almost certain) to miscarry if you regularly have two day luteal phases. The corpus luteum (the hole the egg pops out of) needs to produce progesterone to maintain a pregnancy until implantation. It takes several days for the fertilized egg to travel down your fallopian tubes to your uterus to implant. Without that progesterone, your body triggers shedding of your uterine lining, and the embryo has nowhere to implant, so it is expelled. PROGESTerone is for maintaining GESTation.

GulfCoaster · September 2010

As bel said, a two-day luteal phase is really, really short, and your instructor does have good cause to be concerned about that. A sympto-thermal instructor from CCLI would almost certainly point that out as a concern. (For comparison, my luteal phase for a while was 7 days, and my CCLI instructor pointed that out and suggested I mention it to my doctor due to the serious risk of miscarriage etc.)

I learned CCLI's symptothermal method about 5 years ago, and have been using it ever since. I do rely more on CM, but I like having a cross-check in the temperature. I also have very detailed notes about the appearance of CM and have created my own "categories" because I didn't find the standard CCLI charts to be descriptive enough. So, even though I use the CCLI model, I might be closer to Creighton model than you would think.

Switching might cause some confusion at first because of differences in terminology, but I think you'd get the hang of the CCLI method fairly quickly if you did switch. Neither method of NFP is bad, IMO. However, if you're having trouble with Creighton because your mucus patterns are irregular, you'll have trouble with CCLI for a while, too. All of CCLI's rules for determining the end of phase I (the initial infertile phase) are predicated on CM, and all of the rules for determining the start of phase III (the post-ovulation infertile phase) are predicated on temp + CM together.

Basically, if your issues are with your body, switching methods isn't likely to help that. It sounds like a lot of your issues might be with your instructor -- have you looked around for another Creighton instructor? I like the sympto-thermal method, but I think it might be best for you to finish learning one method before you switch to another (if that makes sense).

agapecarrie · September 2010

But the problem is that since you are going to be using yellow stamps, you need more than the 3 terms to describe the CM< for that very reason, you have MORE than the 3 types appearing.

Its important to learn about the extra non -textbook stuff.

The cryo is not getting "zapped". It doesn't hurt at all, just a little uncomfortable with a little bit of cramps afterward. I am so grateful I did it.

This is the whole point of creighton is to learn about the problem you have.

You can also use marquette method, which is creighton method with a fertility monitor.

Calypso1977 · September 2010

what on earth is getting zapped?

a luteal phase under 10 days may mean that you'd have trouble sustaining pregancy. but you wouldnt even know you were pregnant, the miscarriage you would experience would most likely be mistaken for your period.

agapecarrie · September 2010

When there is a cervical eversion, which is a common cause of a different type of continuous mucous, then a "cryo" can be done. This is a freezing of the cervix. It doesn't take long, and is not painful, just a bit uncomfortable. little bit of cramps after. Easy, and I am so glad I had it done.

TerriandJoe · September 2010

I know that a really short luteal phase can be harmful.

But my instructor led me to think that mine was only 2 days (because of the mucus)

I am now relaxed, because last month when I was also checking my temperature I had 11 days of a raised temp and then got my period.

(I don't know if another Creigton teacher will help because the one we have was referred us by a priest at DH's church. She happens to be a parishioner there. But I guess I can look into that)

But I was wondering if anyone had changed methods and now prefers Synmto -thermal over crieighton.

Thanks for all the advice ladies!

ExpatPumpkin · September 2010

We use the ST method, and I'm self-taught from the TCOYF book. Based on what you've written, here are the concerns I have:

1. It's kind of shocking that an NFP instructor has never even heard of TCOYF. That makes me think she may be set in her ways...

2. She said getting a thermometer "would confuse you." Or maybe she just has no understanding of the ST method?

3. She said your LP was only 2 days, yet you noted an 11-day temperature shift when you started temping. If this continues, then you probably never had a 2-day LP to begin with.

The ST method observes both mucus AND temperature. So it's not a mucus versus temperature decision. Why wouldn't you want to observe both if possible? I'll never understand the mucus-only argument for this reason... The ST method doesn't ignore mucus, it justs adds temperatures.

If I were you, I'd take what you've learned about mucus already and use that along with your temps.

I can't speak to the efficacy of any of the classes, but I don't think they are a necessity.

As to convincing your husband, have him read the book? It just so happened that your priest referred you to a Creighton teacher. Many parishes teach the ST method as well. We're on cycle 8 of self-taught ST method NFP and so far so good for TTA

TerriandJoe · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-methods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:9cc64964-fd1f-44af-9565-0010de7f1455Post:43ddff68-1fa5-4082-b090-f29e02fadeb3">Re: NFP methods...</a>:
[QUOTE]We use the ST method, and I'm self-taught from the TCOYF book. Based on what you've written, here are the concerns I have: 1. It's kind of shocking that an NFP instructor has never even heard of TCOYF. That makes me think she may be set in her ways... 2. She said getting a thermometer "would confuse you." Or maybe she just has no understanding of the ST method? 3. She said your LP was only 2 days, yet you noted an 11-day temperature shift when you started temping. If this continues, then you probably never had a 2-day LP to begin with. The ST method observes both mucus AND temperature. So it's not a mucus versus temperature decision. Why wouldn't you want to observe both if possible? I'll never understand the mucus-only argument for this reason... The ST method doesn't ignore mucus, it justs adds temperatures. If I were you, I'd take what you've learned about mucus already and use that along with your temps. I can't speak to the efficacy of any of the classes, but I don't think they are a necessity. As to convincing your husband, have him read the book? It just so happened that your priest referred you to a Creighton teacher. Many parishes teach the ST method as well. We're on cycle 8 of self-taught ST method NFP and so far so good for TTA ;)
Posted by ExpatPumpkin[/QUOTE]

Thank you!

We talked about it on the way to a wedding that we attended this weekend and DH said he was will willing to meet with the CCLI couple once (she offered that to us if we enrolled in the home study course because its too far away for us to travel to the classes)

So now I just need to order the home study package and set a time a time to meet. I think DH will feel better once he hears from a teaching couple. And I am so grateful that he is willing to go! Thanks girls for listening!

[Deleted User] · September 2010

I am a little late entering this discussion but I find everything that you all have said very fascinating. We are just starting our NFP classes this weekend. We are very excited. I have taken NFP prior to this class as it was a suggested by my OBGYN. Anyway that is not important. I use a sight called http://www.fertilityfriend.com/ it is wonderful. I am able to track everything online and use a combination of methods as discussed above.
I hope that this helps a few of you guys out.

In Christ,
Myst11

LAK011 · September 2010

Where can you get the TCOYF book?? Is it at any book store? (i.e. Barnes N Noble?) And how soon before the wedding should we start attempting the NFP method?

agapecarrie · September 2010

Start charting as soon as possible.... I think every woman should chart when she turns 18 for her health.

bibliophile2010 · September 2010

TCOYF is available at most any bookstore or online. You should be aware that it is not officially Church-approved. The Church's teaching is that you should learn from an instructor who can help you through interpreting your charts and understanding your cycles; additionally, the book officially teaches FAM (charting and using barrier methods on fertile days), with sympto-thermal NFP (or something close) offered in the book as an alternative.

That said, I think the book is a fantastic read. I agree that all women should chart for a variety of reasons -- health and understanding what is actually happening in their bodies (rather than covering it up/ignoring it/etc.) being the main ones. Really, I was skeptical when I heard how empowering it was, but it really, really is. I have been charting for a couple of months based on the book (though I will also be taking a formal NFP class -- method still TBD), and it is really, really amazing.

LAK011 · September 2010

That's fantastic! I'll keep that in mind.

One of the couples for the Pre-Cana classes is trying to get certified to teach NFP, but I doubt they will be completely certified by the time we go through it. I am not Catholic, FI is, and I've heard of the NFP method through his SIL. I'm interested in it not only because of the church's standing on it, but because I don't want to put those extra hormones in my body that don't need to be there. Plus, after hearing that many people have miscarriages (sp?) with their first pregnancy after BC, I want to reduce those risks as much as possible... Perhaps I'll get the book to start researching.

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