Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...

itzMS · April 2013

I know we've touched on this before here on CW.

I'm having a difficult time expressing to the OP exactly why her Catholic parents are saying they will not attend her secular ceremony thus an invalid marriage. She wants to know if she should press the issue with them.

I was hoping someone from CW who is a bit more eloquent could help.

http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_would-it-be-polite

CrazyCatLady3 · April 2013

Hi ladies, I find this topic of special interest to me. My BF was raised Catholic, attended Catholic school K-12, but has no interest in participating in the church any more. He will most definitely not want a church wedding. I'm kind of afraid his parents are going to be very upset when the time comes. I know people in the past have said you can't "un-become" Catholic, but I found this, which seems to say you can through a formal act of defection.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-im-baptized-as-a-catholic-does-that-mean-im-catholic-forever-even-if-i-marry-outsi

So while his parents would probably be upset that he formally left the faith, if he formally became non-Catholic, then his marriage wouldn't be considered invalid? It would be a valid marriage of two non-Catholics marrying outside the church?

agapecarrie · April 2013

That canon law about formal defection no longer exists. Benedict did away with it.

It became increasingly confusing determing what formal defection was...what the act was and had to be in order to be determined.

If the canon was still there, you would be right-- the marriage could be valid.

banana468 · April 2013

I thought the rule no longer existed.   Thanks for clarifying agapecarrie.

My oldest uncle has been married 3 times.    I believe the first wedding was either in a Catholic Church or in a Church and a priest was a co offiant.   My grandfather had a hard time attending that one and he outright refused to attend the other two due to his convictions.

I feel for the OP in the other post.   If it was my daughter I would be praying that she would come around and see that marriage in the Church was what was best for her, but at the same time, I would not want to force her into something that she did not believe in either.   I've seen people on TK and IRL who get married in a house of worship only to keep parents happy.

lalaith50 · April 2013

I'm actually kind of baffled at that post... is it just me, or does the OP sound more like she is worried about whether it's rude to call and ask her parents to clarify than she is upset by the fact that HER PARENTS MIGHT NOT COME TO HER WEDDING??!

meltoine · April 2013

Lala, FWIW, I got the impression that OP is not particularly close to her family or origin. I still think it's a weird way of phrasing it, but I've known a few people who honestly didn't care whether or not their parents attended their wedding. Different strokes, I guess.

itzMS · April 2013

Thanks to everyone who helped me out and chimed in over there.

It's always difficult to explain this situation to those who aren't Catholic.

chelseamb11 · April 2013

It realy bothers me that people equate loving someone with agreeing with everything they do.

meltoine · April 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-attending-the-secular-wedding-of-a-catholic-post-on-e?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8fb204d8-a7e4-4062-9f44-363e03d4f981Post:87af9af3-92e9-440b-8642-b28181d7ab64">Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...</a>:
[QUOTE]It realy bothers me that people equate loving someone with agreeing with everything they do.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

Moral relativism FTW.

bibliophile2010 · April 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-attending-the-secular-wedding-of-a-catholic-post-on-e?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8fb204d8-a7e4-4062-9f44-363e03d4f981Post:51e7b899-aeb3-44f9-aace-a2654f105431">Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E... : Moral relativism FTW.
Posted by meltoine[/QUOTE]

said Satan.

I know you were being sarcastic, Meltoine, but I think the Devil really is patting himself on the back over the prominance of moral relativism in modern society.

CrazyCatLady3 · April 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-attending-the-secular-wedding-of-a-catholic-post-on-e?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8fb204d8-a7e4-4062-9f44-363e03d4f981Post:87af9af3-92e9-440b-8642-b28181d7ab64">Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...</a>:
[QUOTE]It realy bothers me that people equate loving someone with agreeing with everything they do.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

Does attending your son or daughter's non-Catholic wedding necessarily say you agree with the fact that they're having a non-Catholic wedding? Or does it just say that you love your son/daughter and recognize that he/she is an adult making his/her own decisions?

lalaith50 · April 2013

[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E... : Does attending your son or daughter's non-Catholic wedding necessarily say you agree with the fact that they're having a non-Catholic wedding? Or does it just say that you love your son/daughter and recognize that he/she is an adult making his/her own decisions?
Posted by CrazyCatLady3[/QUOTE]
How is attending a wedding NOT saying you believe it's a marriage? That's the problem the OP's parents are having. To them it's not about whether it's a "non-Catholic wedding," it's the fact that they think it won't be a marriage <strong>at all.</strong><div><strong>
</strong><div>(I'm not saying the OP's parents are doing the right thing, or that I agree with them, and it certainly already sounds like there is some serious dysfunction in that relationship to begin with, so this seems to already be a pretty sticky situation.) For all we know, maybe the parents simply hate her FI, and think he is a horrible partner for her, and are using "non-Catholic wedding" thing as an excuse to not attend, since it would be more hurtful for them to tell her they weren't coming b/c they think she is making a huge mistake by marrying him (or whatever.)</div></div>

agapecarrie · April 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-attending-the-secular-wedding-of-a-catholic-post-on-e?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8fb204d8-a7e4-4062-9f44-363e03d4f981Post:d23a1b19-cc5c-47ee-93e0-b87e90161a68">Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E... : Does attending your son or daughter's non-Catholic wedding necessarily say you agree with the fact that they're having a non-Catholic wedding? Or does it just say that you love your son/daughter and recognize that he/she is an adult making his/her own decisions?
Posted by CrazyCatLady3[/QUOTE]

<div>I see over and over and over again how people's silence is perceived as approval. Same thing with attendance at a wedding.</div><div>
</div>

CrazyCatLady3 · April 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-attending-the-secular-wedding-of-a-catholic-post-on-e?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8fb204d8-a7e4-4062-9f44-363e03d4f981Post:993c166d-82b9-4904-adf6-e165b3120800">Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...</a>:
[QUOTE]How is attending a wedding NOT saying you believe it's a marriage? That's the problem the OP's parents are having. To them it's not about whether it's a "non-Catholic wedding," it's the fact that they think it won't be a marriage at all. (I'm not saying the OP's parents are doing the right thing, or that I agree with them, and it certainly already sounds like there is some serious dysfunction in that relationship to begin with, so this seems to already be a pretty sticky situation.) For all we know, maybe the parents simply hate her FI, and think he is a horrible partner for her, and are using "non-Catholic wedding" thing as an excuse to not attend, since it would be more hurtful for them to tell her they weren't coming b/c they think she is making a huge mistake by marrying him (or whatever.)
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

I guess I just see a disconnect with what qualifies as a valid marriage. The church sees marriages between non-Catholics as valid, but if an adult who happened to be raised catholic due to his parents' choice decided not to be catholic-affiliated anymore as an adult, the church is essentially telling him he can't make his own decisions even though he no longer considers himself catholic and any marriage he has outside the church is "invalid." It just doesn't compute. There has to be some room in there for independent decision making. Otherwise the ritual is illusory.

agapecarrie · April 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-attending-the-secular-wedding-of-a-catholic-post-on-e?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8fb204d8-a7e4-4062-9f44-363e03d4f981Post:f9839a05-3cd6-4f7b-9067-5af1ccf76e42">Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E... : I guess I just see a disconnect with what qualifies as a valid marriage. The church sees marriages between non-Catholics as valid, but if an adult who happened to be raised catholic due to his parents' choice decided not to be catholic-affiliated anymore as an adult, the church is essentially telling him he can't make his own decisions even though he no longer considers himself catholic and any marriage he has outside the church is "invalid." It just doesn't compute. There has to be some room in there for independent decision making. Otherwise the ritual is illusory.
Posted by CrazyCatLady3[/QUOTE]

<div>Not at all.</div><div>
</div><div>IN order to have a valid sacrament, there has to be correct form and matter. For a catholic, that includes a certain form for marriage. </div><div>
</div><div>The government can decide certain rules for a civil marriage, why can't the church?</div><div>
</div><div>If a catholic decides to not be catholic anymore, what does he care that the church doesn't view his marriage as valid? Being married outside the church is a public statement against the church. </div><div>
</div>

CrazyCatLady3 · April 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-attending-the-secular-wedding-of-a-catholic-post-on-e?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8fb204d8-a7e4-4062-9f44-363e03d4f981Post:fb6e7c31-fc5d-4acb-ba74-a334a16b74c4">Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E... : Not at all. IN order to have a valid sacrament, there has to be correct form and matter. For a catholic, that includes a certain form for marriage. The government can decide certain rules for a civil marriage, why can't the church? If a catholic decides to not be catholic anymore, what does he care that the church doesn't view his marriage as valid? Being married outside the church is a public statement against the church.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

In my situation, my BF will not care, but I don't like the idea of any of his relatives who may be practicing Catholics viewing our marriage as a invalid and possibly having moral qualms about attending our wedding because he was raised Catholic. I guess I will just have to shrug it off, but it doesn't make me feel good.
To further your analogy, it's as if he was a citizen of Canada and then took up permanent residence in the U.S. and became a U.S. citizen, yet Canada still wanted to declare his marriage in the U.S. invalid and tell other Canadian citizens that they might not want to attend the wedding.

chelseamb11 · April 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-attending-the-secular-wedding-of-a-catholic-post-on-e?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8fb204d8-a7e4-4062-9f44-363e03d4f981Post:d23a1b19-cc5c-47ee-93e0-b87e90161a68">Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Not attending the secular wedding of a Catholic post on E... : Does attending your son or daughter's non-Catholic wedding necessarily say you agree with the fact that they're having a non-Catholic wedding? Or does it just say that you love your son/daughter and recognize that he/she is an adult making his/her own decisions?
Posted by CrazyCatLady3[/QUOTE]

You're reading way too far into what I said. I honestly don't know how I'd react to the situation, should it ever come up.

I'm just making a blanketed statement that we live in a world that tells us we must hate someone (or not love them) if we don't agree with everything they do or support every decision that they make.

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