International travel for work

emeejeeayen · June 2013

Curious what some of your experiences have been traveling internationally for work.

I work at a place that bills hours in 15-minute increments, meaning I log my hours throughout the day - both billable and unbillable. For instance, when we have a staff meeting that's logged as unbillable because it's not for a specific client. Travelling internationally is obviously billable to the specific client I'm traveling for.

I have to travel this weekend for work to Europe. I will work most of the day on Friday in the office, take the 8+ hour flight to Europe, get in around 7am (because of the time difference), hang out in the airport until 2:30pm when a colleague can meet me from a different country, drive almost 3 hours to a very small town, work a solid day at an event on Sunday, drive the 3 hours back to the airport, stay at a hotel right by the airport, then take the 8+ hour flight back on Monday.

We've been told that we will receive bonuses for June based on our billable hours. However, I've been asked to only bill 8 hours a day for Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday because the client cannot afford to pay for more.

FI feels very strongly that I need to push back on this, but I'm not sure how to go about it since I've asked politely about it as many ways as I can.

How has it worked for you when you travel internationally?

(And related, how did you deal with your cell phone plan? Did you prepay or just bill all the overage fees?)

QueerFemme · June 2013

emeejeeayen said:

Curious what some of your experiences have been traveling internationally for work.

I work at a place that bills hours in 15-minute increments, meaning I log my hours throughout the day - both billable and unbillable. For instance, when we have a staff meeting that's logged as unbillable because it's not for a specific client. Travelling internationally is obviously billable to the specific client I'm traveling for.

I have to travel this weekend for work to Europe. I will work most of the day on Friday in the office, take the 8+ hour flight to Europe, get in around 7am (because of the time difference), hang out in the airport until 2:30pm when a colleague can meet me from a different country, drive almost 3 hours to a very small town, work a solid day at an event on Sunday, drive the 3 hours back to the airport, stay at a hotel right by the airport, then take the 8+ hour flight back on Monday.

We've been told that we will receive bonuses for June based on our billable hours. However, I've been asked to only bill 8 hours a day for Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday because the client cannot afford to pay for more.

FI feels very strongly that I need to push back on this, but I'm not sure how to go about it since I've asked politely about it as many ways as I can.

How has it worked for you when you travel internationally?

(And related, how did you deal with your cell phone plan? Did you prepay or just bill all the overage fees?)

I ALWAYS bill every moment of travel time, etc. to clients. And, if my employer wants to write it off or discount the bill, that's up to them. But you should get credit for all of that time, so yeah, i would push back.

emeejeeayen · June 2013

cmgilpin said:

emeejeeayen said:

Curious what some of your experiences have been traveling internationally for work.

I work at a place that bills hours in 15-minute increments, meaning I log my hours throughout the day - both billable and unbillable. For instance, when we have a staff meeting that's logged as unbillable because it's not for a specific client. Travelling internationally is obviously billable to the specific client I'm traveling for.

I have to travel this weekend for work to Europe. I will work most of the day on Friday in the office, take the 8+ hour flight to Europe, get in around 7am (because of the time difference), hang out in the airport until 2:30pm when a colleague can meet me from a different country, drive almost 3 hours to a very small town, work a solid day at an event on Sunday, drive the 3 hours back to the airport, stay at a hotel right by the airport, then take the 8+ hour flight back on Monday.

We've been told that we will receive bonuses for June based on our billable hours. However, I've been asked to only bill 8 hours a day for Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday because the client cannot afford to pay for more.

FI feels very strongly that I need to push back on this, but I'm not sure how to go about it since I've asked politely about it as many ways as I can.

How has it worked for you when you travel internationally?

(And related, how did you deal with your cell phone plan? Did you prepay or just bill all the overage fees?)

I ALWAYS bill every moment of travel time, etc. to clients. And, if my employer wants to write it off or discount the bill, that's up to them. But you should get credit for all of that time, so yeah, i would push back.

So where do you draw the line? Do you bill for all the time you're awake in the travel location? Do you bill time when you sleep?

FI feels like they should have to pay for every minute of time I'm away because I'm not getting to choose where I am, etc. I can see the logic, but I also feel like my employers will spin it as me not being a team player.

daria24 · June 2013

The standard in my industry is:
-for a travel day, where you do not work at all, you get a half day rate
-if you work AT ALL that day you get your full day rate, plus OT if the travel + time worked is over 12 hours.

There is also a mandatory 10 hour turn around from the moment you stop working/traveling for the day before you can start your next day of work.

Given that crazy schedule, I'd demand to be paid for every second, including the time you sit in the airport. If they don't want to pay for that time, they need to pay for a car service to take you where you are supposed to go.

We just submit our phone bills for reimbursement.

emeejeeayen · June 2013

daria24 said:

The standard in my industry is: -for a travel day, where you do not work at all, you get a half day rate -if you work AT ALL that day you get your full day rate, plus OT if the travel + time worked is over 12 hours. There is also a mandatory 10 hour turn around from the moment you stop working/traveling for the day before you can start your next day of work. Given that crazy schedule, I'd demand to be paid for every second, including the time you sit in the airport. If they don't want to pay for that time, they need to pay for a car service to take you where you are supposed to go. We just submit our phone bills for reimbursement.

I'm paid salary, so I'm actually not being paid extra for any of this. I'm concerned about my bonus because we have to hit over 170 billable hours for the month of June, and this will likely prevent that.

QueerFemme · June 2013

I bill ALL of my travel time (like to and from the airport, in flight, etc.) and when I'm actually AT the destination, I bill for time worked and travel time (to and from the hotel). Once I'm at my hotel, I stop charging. I get that you are away from home, but you can't really (at least not ethically) bill for the time you are sitting in your hotel room or asleep.

emeejeeayen · June 2013

cmgilpin said:

I bill ALL of my travel time (like to and from the airport, in flight, etc.) and when I'm actually AT the destination, I bill for time worked and travel time (to and from the hotel). Once I'm at my hotel, I stop charging. I get that you are away from home, but you can't really (at least not ethically) bill for the time you are sitting in your hotel room or asleep.

Yeah, that's how I feel.

FI has never had to travel for work in the way that I have. Before law school he worked in film/TV, where you get paid in 12-hour increments (so you get a flat rate for 12 hours, and then crazy overtime for anything over 12 hours, even just 5 minutes would count as a full hour over), and you're often standing around doing nothing, get per diems, etc. Very different. So, I think his perspective on what counts as work as well as what industry standards are is very different.

freebread03 · June 2013

Your company must have a policy on this. I work for a very large international firm, and there is strictly defined guidance on what is billable and what is not. I would refer to your company's policy, and take that to your manager to make your argument about billing more hours. As for cell phone, I'm headed to Europe next week, and called my Helpdesk who worked with the vendor (AT&T) to set up an international plan for the days I'm gone. Since you're only gone a few days, it might not be worth it, but I'd at least call to check.

emeejeeayen · June 2013

freebread03 said:

Your company must have a policy on this. I work for a very large international firm, and there is strictly defined guidance on what is billable and what is not. I would refer to your company's policy, and take that to your manager to make your argument about billing more hours. As for cell phone, I'm headed to Europe next week, and called my Helpdesk who worked with the vendor (AT&T) to set up an international plan for the days I'm gone. Since you're only gone a few days, it might not be worth it, but I'd at least call to check.

Nah, we have no formal plan unfortunately. That's sort of why it's a shit show. We just do what clients ask of us and follow the clients' policies most of the time, and not all companies have excellent policies.

misssunshine17 · June 2013

I know nothing about this, but what jumps out to me is how are you going to Europe for an company that can only pay you for 8 hours? That sounds ridiculous to me so I would absolutely push back.

emeejeeayen · June 2013

misssunshine17 said:

I know nothing about this, but what jumps out to me is how are you going to Europe for an company that can only pay you for 8 hours? That sounds ridiculous to me so I would absolutely push back.

Well, they're paying ME nothing additional

The joys of being a salaried employee, of course.

ETA: and the client is paying for 8 hours per day.

misssunshine17 · June 2013

Okay, ignore me

I clearly don't work in this kind of industry.

erinlin25 · June 2013

well my industry was a lot different, but the cheer company I worked for sent me to London twice (week at a time) and Japan for literally a weekend. The London trips we got a daily stipend sort of deal and all meals, travel, tours, etc paid for-- If you counted up the hours I worked (pretty much 18+ hour days) it did not seem like much, but to be one of the four staff out of three hundred staff members picked to go on the trip (and I got to go twice) it was like a free trip to London, so I could not complain. I did not spend a dime, so it was worth it to me.

When I went to Japan, again meals, travel, etc all paid + we got our hourly rate while we ran our sessions (one day was 8 hrs; the other was 6 I think). You cannot really bill out for time you are not working, especially if they are paying all your travel expenses. But you should get reimbursed for meals if they are not paid for your in advance.

If they are paying for your travel expenses I don't think you should get paid for the travel time in addition to them paying for you to go. If you are actually working over 8 hours then you should bill for that.

as far as cell phone; the company paid for us to have internet so we could communicate via computer back home and we were given a calling card. I chose not to turn on international roaming on my cell since I did not need to use it. In London, we were given a cell phone to use there to communicate between the other staff when needed.

End of the day I look back at those "work trips" as free trips. I had a "fun job" so it was worth it to me.

freebread03 · June 2013

Yikes, this sounds so strange. They're flying you to Europe for a 1 day event? So, don't do the cell, not worth it IMO. As for the billing thing...talk to a manager about it and call bull. Log all the hours you work in a spreadsheet, and take that to them and say "hey, this isn't fair." I get it-I work on a firm fixed price contract and people aren't supposed to bill more than 8 hours a day, because the client is only paying for 8. But, I bill what I work, and no one has ever had an issue-if they DID I would tell them that NOT billing my hours feels dishonest, but that they are welcome to bill the client however they choose.

lyndausvi · June 2013

It seems to me that it's how the billable hours effect her bonus. Since she is salary it doesn't matter how many hours she works as far as regular pay, she will be paid the same regardless.

I'm not clear if this is your only client or not? I guess the question is how many billable hours would you get if you were not on the road? Would you be pulling in more than the 16 hours you would get for the weekend? Since they do not want you to bill for more than 8 hours on the road would you have even been able to bill those hours if you were not on the road? If you have other clients can you work on any other client for billable hours when waiting at the airport on on the plane? Not so much the trip over because that is a red-eye, but maybe the one over? My dad does a lot of work on overseas flights and airport lounges, that is why I'm asking. Can't you just ask how this would effect your bonus?

I have a hard time believing this type of thing has not come up before. Maybe someone like your manager has some insight?

As far as the phone, My dad goes all over the world for weeks and months at time without extra pay. Some years he is gone 60% of the time. It's normal for him. He has a company cell phone that has an international package. He just forwards his personal phone to that number and the company pays for that.

emeejeeayen · June 2013

lyndausvi said:

It seems to me that it's how the billable hours effect her bonus. Since she is salary it doesn't matter how many hours she works as far as regular pay, she will be paid the same regardless.

I'm not clear if this is your only client or not? I guess the question is how many billable hours would you get if you were not on the road? Would you be pulling in more than the 16 hours you would get for the weekend? Since they do not want you to bill for more than 8 hours on the road would you have even been able to bill those hours if you were not on the road? If you have other clients can you work on any other client for billable hours when waiting at the airport on on the plane? Not so much the trip over because that is a red-eye, but maybe the one over? My dad does a lot of work on overseas flights and airport lounges, that is why I'm asking. Can't you just ask how this would effect your bonus?

I have a hard time believing this type of thing has not come up before. Maybe someone like your manager has some insight?

As far as the phone, My dad goes all over the world for weeks and months at time without extra pay. Some years he is gone 60% of the time. It's normal for him. He has a company cell phone that has an international package. He just forwards his personal phone to that number and the company pays for that.

So, I work in PR, and I have several other clients.

The situation is that I was projected for, I don't know, let's say 190 billable hours. One client bailed last minute, so now I'm slated for 160 this month. We've each been approved to be paid 2 weekend days (16 hours) for overtime (which I'll get for this trip, no problem) and an additional bonus if we break 170. If I bill all the time I work this coming weekend, I'll hit 170 no problem, but without it, they just simply have not given me enough work to break 170 hours, even though at the start of the month it looked like I would.

Without the bonus incentive, I'd obviously be pleased to only have to work 40-hour work weeks.

All of my expenses are obviously paid, but it's not like I'm going to a cool place. I'm going to a middle-of-nowhere town, and spending 3 hours in the car (ETA: each way) with a videographer I barely know. Not awesome.

We enter all of our hours into a system for 4 million different codes, so I guess I could enter my hours anyway, and let billing managers deal with it, but considering I already asked, I think I'm screwed. When I asked my supervisor, she said something to the effect of, "There are differing opinions in the office about whether or not we should bill for travel time, so it will be up to the SVP." SVP already said no dice, so I think I'm out of options. :-\

lyndausvi · June 2013

It doesn't look promising.

I guess you can look at it as if you weren't doing the trip you would not be meeting the hours anyway. At least you are getting 2 OT weekend days. You would not get that if you weren't on the trip either. Right? Just trying to find a positive.

On another note I find it odd they would not bill a client for travel time, I would think it would be good extra money for them?

All of my dad's projects are internal so he it's not even something he has to worry about. Doesn't get any extra pay for being away from home for 35 days in a row either.

tiny speck · June 2013

Yikes, that sounds crazy. I think it's a bit ridiculous that they are not going to count travel time as billable (if I'm reading all this correctly). You wouldn't be spending hours on a plane and then hours in an airport (and it is really weird to me btw, that your contact can't pick you up when your flight gets in), and hours in a car, and then all over again coming back, if you weren't carrying out the work for this client.

OliveOilsMom · June 2013

While I have not traveled internationally, the way my office works is just how cmgilpin explained. The higher ups will discount bills. I think that you should be able to bill all your hours and then one of your bosses, can discount the bill for your client so that they only pay the 8 hours per day. That is how it would work at my office. I'm salaried too, and while I have never been told I need to bill x amount of hours, I do know they expect me to bill for every minute I work.

Can you approach your boss about how you will bill your work, using only billable hours and then see if they can just discount the bill for the client. I have also seen invoices from experts we have hired where they have done the same thing. Where the contract that was signed said the cost for their work would be 10k, but their total bill is 11k, they just offer the 1k discount to keep the bill within their contracted amount. It also shows the client how much money they actually saved from using your company, which would likely have them come back to your for more business.

freebread03 · June 2013

OliveOilsMom said:

While I have not traveled internationally, the way my office works is just how cmgilpin explained. The higher ups will discount bills. I think that you should be able to bill all your hours and then one of your bosses, can discount the bill for your client so that they only pay the 8 hours per day. That is how it would work at my office. I'm salaried too, and while I have never been told I need to bill x amount of hours, I do know they expect me to bill for every minute I work.

Can you approach your boss about how you will bill your work, using only billable hours and then see if they can just discount the bill for the client. I have also seen invoices from experts we have hired where they have done the same thing. Where the contract that was signed said the cost for their work would be 10k, but their total bill is 11k, they just offer the 1k discount to keep the bill within their contracted amount. It also shows the client how much money they actually saved from using your company, which would likely have them come back to your for more business.

This, exactly.

emeejeeayen · June 2013

So, our "timesheets" (electronic form online with 400 million codes where we bill all our hours) are due tomorrow, but no one ever got back to me 100% on how I should handle it, so I put in placeholders for all the time I knew I'd be working, and just didn't hit submit. Finance will contact me on Monday or Tuesday to ask why I didn't submit, and I'll let them know that I'm still waiting to hear back. Then it will go through the COO who will be able to give a definitive say easily.

Thanks everyone for making me feel not crazy. I think it's total BS to not bill clients for international flights. Bananas.

International travel for work

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