Vows for those of us who believe in nothing, Lebowski!

pesematology · June 2013

So, my partner and I are atheists, and we don't really believe marriage is "sacred". We are also both divorced, and while we take marriage very seriously, we both agree that a marriage is essentially just an arrangement that exists to serve the needs of the people involved. Since we can't see the future and we don't believe that divorce is unacceptable, we're uncomfortable saying things like "forever" or "always" or "until death" in our vows and readings. We don't want to make promises we don't intend to keep have it within our power to make, but we also don't want our guests to wonder why we don't just wear black turtlenecks and smoke cloves instead of having a wedding. Help?

pesematology · June 2013

I guess I'm not clear on exactly what "civil ceremony" means. I thought it meant just going to the courthouse? When people use that term, are they usually talking about a ceremony that includes poems, readings, or custom vows?

Also, IIRC from my first marriage, the "death do you part" thing is also in the legal wording, at least in Ohio.

tiny speck · June 2013

Civil ceremony means non-religious ceremony. If you are not getting married by a religious officiant then your ceremony will be a civil one, technically. So yes, it can of course include poems and readings and you can customize your vows. But to give you something to work with, look up "civil wedding vows" to get the basics.

daria24 · June 2013

We are atheists and just wrote our own personal vows. We didn't use any of the "till death do us part" language either. We just focused on the promises that were important to each of us. Offbeat bride often has posts of nonreligious wedding vows.

pesematology · June 2013

Cool, thanks for setting me straight about the term "civil ceremony". Are there any readings in particular that anyone recommends? What are everyone's thoughts on euro-americans using Buddhist readings within the ceremony?

calliopeia2013 · June 2013

pesematology said:

Cool, thanks for setting me straight about the term "civil ceremony". Are there any readings in particular that anyone recommends? What are everyone's thoughts on euro-americans using Buddhist readings within the ceremony?

Are you Buddhists, or from a Buddhist background? If not, I would think it was tacky to appropriate someone else's sacred texts just because you think they're cool.

We found all of the readings for our civil ceremony just by googling "secular wedding readings" and "atheist wedding readings." There's some really awesome stuff out there, but it depends on your tastes- poetry, philosophy, cutesy stuff, you name it.

daria24 · June 2013

Eh I don't think many of the couples using the Apache Marriage Blessing are actually Apache, so I would side-eye someone using a Buddhist reading as much as using the Apache reading, KWIM?

manateehugger · June 2013

pesematology said:

Cool, thanks for setting me straight about the term "civil ceremony". Are there any readings in particular that anyone recommends? What are everyone's thoughts on euro-americans using Buddhist readings within the ceremony?

You're unwilling to have any religious traditions because you're atheist, but you're willing to have Buddhist readings? That doesn't make sense to me.

And Europeans and Americans can be Buddhists.

Andddd I completely agree with @LingerLonger1 - don't get married if you're unwilling to make the commitment.

artbyallie · June 2013

I have to agree with @LingerLonger1. Divorces are expensive even when amicable, so if you don't see yourselves together for the rest of your lives, you really shouldn't bother with a legal marriage in the first place. Of course, living together as a couple for years may well make you common-law married in most states, and I don't know what, if any, laws would be applicable when it comes to dissolving a common-law marriage.

Simply Fated · June 2013

pesematology said:
Cool, thanks for setting me straight about the term "civil ceremony". Are there any readings in particular that anyone recommends? What are everyone's thoughts on euro-americans using Buddhist readings within the ceremony?

Buddhism is a religion, so wouldn't that go against your atheist beliefs?

southernbelle0915 · June 2013

You believe in love, right? And you believe in each other, right? And your believe in your love for each other and your ability to make your relationship work? And you believe you have the skills to make it work? So write your own ceremony/vows based on that and hire an officiant to read it and sign your marriage license.

I do think it's whack that you said you two "don't want to make promises you don't intend to keep". I really hope that wasn't what you meant. Marriage is a promise to each other. Doesn't matter if you have religious beliefs or not. That's the point. If you don't intend to keep that promise, I don't get why you're doing it...

QueerFemme · June 2013

We had a completely non-religious ceremony. We also didn't want to use the words "forever and ever and ever and ever" We both firmly believe in the committment we made to each other, and we intend on staying together until death. And we also both have been married before, and we intended to stay together forever then too. Shit happens. It doesn't mean either of us don't intend on working through every kink that comes our way, and don't intend on dying together some day in a hospital bed (i.e. The NoteBook). We do believe we have that kind of love. But, for us, "forever" just sounded... well, cliche.

So, for advice, don't have a buddhist reading, or any other reading that is based on any religion. There are plenty of non-religious readings out there. This is the one we used in our program and a couple others that we considered, but didn't use:

EXCERPT FROM "THE GIFT FROM THE SEA"

~ By Anne Morrow Lindbergh ~

When you love someone, you do not love them all the time, in exactly the same way, from moment to moment. It is an impossibility. It is even a lie to pretend to. And yet this is exactly what most of us demand. We have so little faith in the ebb and flow of life, of love, of relationships. We leap at the flow of the tide and resist in terror its ebb. We are afraid it will never return. We insist on permanency, on duration, on continuity; when the only continuity possible, in life as in love, is in growth, in fluidity - in freedom, in the sense that the dancers are free, barely touching as they pass, but partners in the same pattern.

The only real security is not in owning or possessing, not in demanding or expecting, not in hoping, even. Security in a relationship lies neither in looking back to what was in nostalgia, nor forward to what it might be in dread or anticipation, but living in the present relationship and accepting it as it is now. Relationships must be like islands, one must accept them for what they are here and now, within their limits - islands, surrounded and interrupted by the sea, and continually visited and abandoned by the tides.

A few others that we considered, but didn't use:

Excerpt from the Velveteen Rabbit by Margery Williams

“What is REAL?” asked the Rabbit one day, when they were lying side by side near the nursery fender, before Nana came to tidy the room. “Does it mean having things that buzz inside you and a stick-out handle?”

“Real isn’t how you are made,” said the Skin Horse. “It’s a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but Really loves you, then you become Real.”

“Does it hurt?” asked the Rabbit.

“Sometimes,” said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. “When you are Real you don’t mind being hurt.”

“Does it happen all at once, like being wound up,” he asked, “or bit by bit?”

“It doesn’t happen all at once,” said the Skin Horse. “You become. It takes a long time. That’s why it doesn’t happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get all loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don’t matter at all, because once you are Real you can’t be ugly, except to people who don’t understand.”

TOUCHED BY AN ANGEL
By Maya Angelou

We, unaccustomed to courage
exiles from delight
live coiled in shells of loneliness
until love leaves its high holy temple
and comes into our sight
to liberate us into life.

Love arrives
and in its train come ecstasies
old memories of pleasure
ancient histories of pain.
Yet if we are bold,
love strikes away the chains of fear
from our souls.

We are weaned from our timidity
In the flush of love's light
we dare be brave
And suddenly we see
that love costs all we are
and will ever be.
Yet it is only love
which sets us free.

QueerFemme · June 2013

Here is a transcript of our ceremony. As you can see, no mention of god, buddha, or forever. We did do a blessing to the Ohlone people (the original people of Oakland, CA which is where we live and got married). My partner is Mexican/Native American... so, that is the only "Blessing" we had.

Good afternoon, I would like to welcome everyone and thank you for coming.

I would like to start with a blessing and to offer thanks to the Ohlone people, who are the original people of this land and to all our ancestors who have given us life and brought us to this time here today. I offer the good blessing of this ceremony from father sky and mother earth, creator and nurturer of all life, we give heartfelt thanks for the moments which have brought together all of us to witness G and Christina uniting in marriage.

In writing this ceremony I have thought deeply about the meaning of marriage and arrived at the uniting of two people together and in community. It is the acceptance of virtue and vice. Marriage is about having the capacity to forgive and forget and rejoice and nurture one another. To be united as well as independent. Marriage is not about marrying the right partner but about being the right partner and supporting one another through all the crazy endeavors we may embark on in this world.

Today is not a beginning, it is only what is, this day marks a journey of sweet love, shared dreams and tender fear.

Will everyone who is able to please rise… I ask that we all join in and take a moment to reflect and surround this couple in love and support, offering them a deep commitment from each one of us here today, in offering strength, resilience and wisdom in times of conflict and hardship and nourishment, celebration and love throughout their lives. A union needs the support of community, friends and family. Will you, (cmgilpin's partner) and (cmgilpin)'s dear friends and family, make a commitment to respect the bond created here today and support and encourage their love and promise to one another. If so, please affirm by saying "We do"

(We do)

cmgilpin's partner's vows/ring

cmgilpin's vows/ring

(cmgilpin) and (cmgilpin's partner), today we celebrate you, and the worth and beauty of love.

The promises and vows you have made today will guide you in your common future, you have declared before all of us your love and promise to one another, with abiding confidence and affection, we send you forth on your journey and hope it will be filled with wonder, hope, wisdom and love.

Ladies and gentlemen, friends and family, it is with great pleasure that I now present to you, (cmgilpin) and (cmgilpin's partner)!

<KISS>

pesematology · June 2013

Most types of Buddhism, e.g. Zen, are non-theist. My partner and I aren't part of a Buddhist community, but we make use of many of its readings and teachings in our everyday lives. In particular we listen to recordings by Pema Chodron together pretty frequently. So that's why I though of it. We're not anti-religion, we just don't have any supernatural beliefs.

As for staying together until death, it's not that we don't want to or don't intend to. It's more that we see that as a desirable outcome rather than a promise we can make to each other. We can't promise never to divorce because if our relationship is causing us more harm than good at some point, then we will divorce. We can't guarantee our feelings will never change because that's like promising the wind will always blow the same direction.

Thanks, to to the people who posted readings from their own ceremonies. I enjoyed reading over them and it's helpful for me.

HisGirlFriday13 · June 2013

pesematology said:

So, my partner and I are atheists, so we don't really believe marriage is "sacred". We are also both divorced, and while we take marriage very seriously, we both agree that a marriage is essentially just an arrangement that exists to serve the needs of the people involved. Since we can't see the future and we don't believe that divorce is unacceptable, we're uncomfortable saying things like "forever" or "always" or "until death" in our vows and readings. We don't want to make promises we don't intend to keep, but we also don't want our guests to wonder why we don't just wear black turtlenecks and smoke cloves instead of having a wedding. Help?

If you are atheists, have the courage of your (lack of) convictions and leave God out of it. Do not appropriate another religion's sacred texts because YOU think they sound pretty. I ditto PPs that if you don't believe marriage is sacred or forever and you're not going to commit to forever, why bother, but that's between you and your partner. Find non-sacred texts that you like that talk about romance and love and have those read.

pesematology · June 2013

Whether or not I find some Buddhist practices and tenets personally meaningful is not really up for debate here. I am, however, interested in talking about where the line draws between cultural appropriation and legitimate spiritual expression.

I also wasn't necessarily talking about using anyone's sacred texts per se. Modern writings that express a Buddhist view of marriage would be particularly helpful but I haven't come across any I really like so far.

Our family cultures are, respectively, Reform Jewish and Irish Catholic. I plan to incorporate the huppah and stepping on the glass, but in terms of words or texts, not a whole lot from my own family's tradition really speaks to me, and I think he's in the same boat WRT his own.

It's the vows specifically that I'm really thinking about. We're able to articulate pretty easily the things that we *don't* want to promise to one another, but it's much harder to articulate the commitment we truly intend.

NOLAbridealmost · June 2013

Your marriage would be considered a nullity (null and void) in my state and in many states if you enter into it without the intention to remain married until death. I'd rethink your plans. I also, as an atheist who deeply believes in marriage as a lifelong commitment, find your post (and frankly, some of the regs' posts suggesting that a civil marriage is what you should do) insulting. Marriage is for people, religious or not, who believe they are promising to be together forever. Period. If things go horribly south in the future, fine, get a divorce. But if you can't at least say on the day of the wedding that you are promising each other your whole lives then WTF is the point?

NOLAbridealmost · June 2013

StageManager14 said:

while I don't intend to divorce, I went into my marriage knowing there were certain things that I would absolutely file for divorce over if they happened. I chose to marry my husband because I trust him not to cross those lines.

That too.

STARMOON44 · June 2013

How about, "I, Jane Doe, take you Jim Bob, to be my husband, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, in love and faithfulness."

Or you could work in the passage on the benefits of civil marriage from Goodridge v. Dept. of Health.

I think the key is not to declare that you believe in nothing, but to think really hard about why you are getting married, and what it means to you, and then write it down. And edit until it feels like you.

pesematology · June 2013

NOLAbridealmost said:

Your marriage would be considered a nullity (null and void) in my state and in many states if you enter into it without the intention to remain married until death. I'd rethink your plans. I also, as an atheist who deeply believes in marriage as a lifelong commitment, find your post (and frankly, some of the regs' posts suggesting that a civil marriage is what you should do) insulting. Marriage is for people, religious or not, who believe they are promising to be together forever. Period. If things go horribly south in the future, fine, get a divorce. But if you can't at least say on the day of the wedding that you are promising each other your whole lives then WTF is the point?

I'm sorry that what I said was insulting to you. I think that we probably differ more on what constitutes a promise than we do on what constitutes a marriage. My partner and I both consider a desire to remain together until death a dear wish, and a cherished hope, but not a viable promise. I never meant to give the impression that I was planning to end the marriage from jump street.

StageManager14 said:

I just have to add that being atheist has nothing to do with your view of marriage. I know several atheists, who absolutely believe marriage is "sacred" and that divorce is "unacceptable" no matter what, and as a Christian, while I don't intend to divorce, I went into my marriage knowing there were certain things that I would absolutely file for divorce over if they happened. I chose to marry my husband because I trust him not to cross those lines. You're confusing 2 different issues here.

Apologies if the wording was confusing. I didn't intend to conflate atheism with my beliefs about divorce. I just want the vows I make to my partner to be reflective of both, so I mentioned them together.

pesematology · June 2013

StageManager14 said:

No, actually you directly implied cause and effect. You didn't say we're atheists and we also feel X about marriage, you said we're atheists SO we feel...

I have edited the original post for clarity. Sorry for the confusion.

mustbedreaming · June 2013

To pesematology: Bottom line, it's you and your partner's day so do whatever the fuck you damn well please (within state-required legal boundaries). Also, your guests are people that (I assume, and I could be wrong) you know and love (or feel a basic liking toward) so I wouldn't worry too much about what they think. You want to break a glass under a huppah and then serve madyan to your guests? Go for it.

I don't think pesematology was saying that marriage isn't important or that (s)he expects their relationship to end in divorce. I read the post as a bit humorous but in no way do I think the intention was to disrespect any views on nuptials as sacred or religious. I think (s)he was genuinely looking for some advice and taking a realistic point of view on things. So not everyone is into the "forever and ever and even after we're six feet under" idea of marriage. That doesn't make the realistic approach any less valid.

pesematology · June 2013

Linger - I left the original words with a strikethrough, but I also added new ones to clarify what I meant. Going through a divorce was not a happy thing to do, and I definitely hope to avoid another one. Part of the reason for my insistence on vows that don't make reference to anything that I don't truly believe, is because I want these vows to accurately reflect exactly what each of us is committing to. I want to set a tone of clear communication by only making promises to one another that we can keep in a concrete, perceptible way and hold each other accountable for and that our friends and family can hold us accountable for.

I think it's fine to use traditional vows if they accurately reflect your expectations of marriage, and to use vague vows if you feel comfortable making your specific expectations clear in another context within your relationship. But for me and my partner, given our past experiences, it feels important to keep our vows extremely specific, concrete, and down-to-earth.

I don't feel honest promising to "love" or "cherish" for "forever" or even "until death". I would much prefer to make my vows about the things I can to do in order to make those things happen, rather than just promising those things themselves. The kind of promises I feel comfortable committing to are things like, to listen when he's upset, or to make soup when he's sick, or to always be nice to his cat, or to share all important decisions with him, or to strengthen my bonds with his family, adhere to our mutual beliefs about veganism, raise children with him, etc. I feel comfortable promising those things to him for as long as our life together lasts, and with luck I hope that means until death.

In this thread, I was hoping to hear from other brides who wrote custom vows in the same vein, or who might have suggestions for the kinds of habits that strengthen their relationships and that one might vow to cultivate.

harper0813 · June 2013

In case you're still looking for a reading, here are a few more (we're using the first or second and we're also having a non-religious ceremony):

“The Master Speed

No speed of wind or water rushing by
but you have speed far greater. You can climb
back up a stream of radiance to the sky,
and back through history up the stream of time.
And you were given this swiftness, not for haste
nor chiefly that you may go where you will,
but in the rush of everything to waste,
that you may have the power of standing still--
off any still or moving thing you say.
Two such as you with such a master speed
From one another once you are agreed
that life is only life forevermore
together wing to wing and oar to oar.”

― Robert Frost

Excerpt from 100 Love Sonnets

BY CHILEAN POET, PABLO NERUDA
I do not love you as if you were salt-rose, or topaz, or the arrow of carnations the fire shoots off. I love you as certain dark things are to be loved, in secret, between the shadow and the soul.

I love you as the plant that never blooms but carries in itself the light of hidden flowers; thanks to your love a certain solid fragrance, risen from the earth, lives darkly in my body.

I love you without knowing how, or when, or from where. I love you straightforwardly, without complexities or pride; so I love you because I know no other way

than this: Where “I” does not exist, nor “You”, so close that your hand on my chest is my hand, so close that your eyes close as I fall asleep.

Ernest Hemingway, from A Farewell to Arms
"At night, there was the feeling that we had come home, feeling no longer alone, waking in the night to find the other one there, and not gone away; all other things were unreal. We slept when we were tired and if we woke the other one woke too so one was not alone. Often a man wishes to be alone and a woman wishes to be alone too and if they love each other they are jealous of that in each other, but I can truly say we never felt that. We could feel alone when we were together, alone against the others. We were never lonely and never afraid when we were together."

From Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward's wedding:

Happiness in marriage is not something that just happens. A good marriage must be created. In the Art of Marriage: The little things are the big things. It is never being too old to hold hands. It is remembering to say 'I love you' at least once a day. It is never going to sleep angry. It is at no time taking the other for granted; the courtship should not end with the honeymoon, it should continue through all the years. It is having a mutual sense of values and common objectives. It is standing together facing the world. It is forming a circle of love that gathers in the whole family. It is doing things for each other, not in the attitude of duty or sacrifice, but in the spirit of joy. It is speaking words of appreciation and demonstrating gratitude in thoughtful ways. It is not expecting the husband to wear a halo or the wife to have wings of an angel. It is not looking for perfection in each other. It is cultivating flexibility, patience, understanding and a sense of humor. It is having the capacity to forgive and forget. It is giving each other an atmosphere in which each can grow. It is finding room for the things of the spirit. It is a common search for the good and the beautiful. It is establishing a relationship in which the independence is equal, dependence is mutual and the obligation is reciprocal. It is not only marrying the right partner, it is being the right partner.

pesematology · June 2013

I like that last one especially. Although you can definitely never go wrong with Neruda.

readingrrl · June 2013

We're non-religious also and our writing our own vows. I come from a strong Christian background and he has Buddhist leanings (which neither of us consider to be theocratic.) We are planning on incorporating readings that are meaningful to us. (Big thanks to the PPs for resources on that front.)

Ideas that we have, but don't have worded yet:

-vow to give each other the benefit of the doubt, to believe that our partner has the best of intentions for us and our family

-vow to work it out, to lay aside ego and pride for the sake of love and unity

-vow to see the beauty and humanity in the other

-vow to allow our partner the freedom to grow, to try and to make mistakes

Just some ideas we're working on. Good luck, and congrats!

Tinav43 · July 2013

zobird ---- thank you for those readings!!!! I might actually use the excerpt from Paul Newman's wedding. It's quite perfect. We are having a non-religious civil ceremony and I was at a loss for what we could add to personalize the ceremony a bit. This reading is just perfect. Thanks!

zobird said:

In case you're still looking for a reading, here are a few more (we're using the first or second and we're also having a non-religious ceremony): “The Master Speed No speed of wind or water rushing by but you have speed far greater. You can climb back up a stream of radiance to the sky, and back through history up the stream of time. And you were given this swiftness, not for haste nor chiefly that you may go where you will, but in the rush of everything to waste, that you may have the power of standing still-- off any still or moving thing you say. Two such as you with such a master speed From one another once you are agreed that life is only life forevermore together wing to wing and oar to oar.” ― Robert Frost Excerpt from 100 Love Sonnets BY CHILEAN POET, PABLO NERUDA I do not love you as if you were salt-rose, or topaz, or the arrow of carnations the fire shoots off. I love you as certain dark things are to be loved, in secret, between the shadow and the soul. I love you as the plant that never blooms but carries in itself the light of hidden flowers; thanks to your love a certain solid fragrance, risen from the earth, lives darkly in my body. I love you without knowing how, or when, or from where. I love you straightforwardly, without complexities or pride; so I love you because I know no other way than this: Where “I” does not exist, nor “You”, so close that your hand on my chest is my hand, so close that your eyes close as I fall asleep. Ernest Hemingway, from A Farewell to Arms "At night, there was the feeling that we had come home, feeling no longer alone, waking in the night to find the other one there, and not gone away; all other things were unreal. We slept when we were tired and if we woke the other one woke too so one was not alone. Often a man wishes to be alone and a woman wishes to be alone too and if they love each other they are jealous of that in each other, but I can truly say we never felt that. We could feel alone when we were together, alone against the others. We were never lonely and never afraid when we were together." From Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward's wedding: Happiness in marriage is not something that just happens. A good marriage must be created. In the Art of Marriage: The little things are the big things. It is never being too old to hold hands. It is remembering to say 'I love you' at least once a day. It is never going to sleep angry. It is at no time taking the other for granted; the courtship should not end with the honeymoon, it should continue through all the years. It is having a mutual sense of values and common objectives. It is standing together facing the world. It is forming a circle of love that gathers in the whole family. It is doing things for each other, not in the attitude of duty or sacrifice, but in the spirit of joy. It is speaking words of appreciation and demonstrating gratitude in thoughtful ways. It is not expecting the husband to wear a halo or the wife to have wings of an angel. It is not looking for perfection in each other. It is cultivating flexibility, patience, understanding and a sense of humor. It is having the capacity to forgive and forget. It is giving each other an atmosphere in which each can grow. It is finding room for the things of the spirit. It is a common search for the good and the beautiful. It is establishing a relationship in which the independence is equal, dependence is mutual and the obligation is reciprocal. It is not only marrying the right partner, it is being the right partner.

Vows for those of us who believe in nothing, Lebowski!

Re: Vows for those of us who believe in nothing, Lebowski!

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