Are PPD's a world-wide thing?

psychbabe314 · October 2013

So... I was reading a textbook of mine and it had a section about homosexuality and the perspectives that different cultures have on it, etc. Well, it followed it up with an article by a anthropologists who had done research and come up with a theory on the subject.

After reading the article I was wondering the following: Do PPD (which I keep reading about on the etiquette board) exist in only a few cultures? The article discussed how one culture (the used the United States as an example) had a ceremony that was viewed as an "all-in-one" something that was verified by a church/religion and by the government at the same time, but in some places it was different. It was expected that people seek a marriage license and sign it for the government and then have a ceremony viewed by the church/religion later. They are viewed as two separate events.

Does anyone ever have an experience with weddings from couples from other cultures? Or attended a wedding outside of the U.S.? Do PPD's exist only in a few cultures? Just the U.S.?

minskat30 · October 2013

Interesting. Well, in India wedding last several days to a week. There are many, many traditional steps that are followed (a sangeet, mehendi, etc) but those are all pre-wedding events leading to the wedding. When H and I go to India in December we will have a reception for those who couldn't travel to the U.S. for our wedding and, if my mother-in-law would like, I'll get henna. We won't be having a wedding do-over though and everyone at the reception will know we are married as we will be displaying some of our wedding pictures for people to see. According to my mother-in-law, it is considered bad luck in Indian culture to get married twice (even to the same person).

psychbabe314 · October 2013

@miniskat30, I have a friend who is Indian and she had mentioned that once. I would be exhausted to be doing things for that long! But, the henna that brides get is beautiful :-) I hope your reception turns is fantastic.

minskat30 · October 2013

@psychbabe314 - I hear you and agree about it being exhausting. I'm glad we didn't do a traditional Indian wedding...I hate being the center of attention for a few hours much less 7 days! I think I'd go into hiding.

psychbabe314 · October 2013

I think you and I are two of a kind on that.

leia1979 · October 2013

I know in some European countries, separate civil and religious ceremonies are common. I just can't recall which countries at the moment. Only the civil ceremony is required, but if you want a separate religious one, you can have it.

suzie211 · October 2013

leia1979 said:

I know in some European countries, separate civil and religious ceremonies are common. I just can't recall which countries at the moment. Only the civil ceremony is required, but if you want a separate religious one, you can have it.

This exactly. My grandparents were married in Paris during WWII (seriously one of the best stories ever!!!), and this was the law then. 70 years later this may have changed, but in the 1940's France only recognized civil marriages. My grandmother was Catholic, and the church would not recognize the civil ceremony. So they had one of each. Until the day she died, my grandmother would joke that she couldn't read or speak French. She had to just nod, smile, and assume she was married, but if she wasn't she sure had fun living in sin!

ETA: wine and grammar don't mix

psychbabe314 · October 2013

Yep, this is basically what I think the article was saying. I guess my next question would be... why is it so different in the United States? The article went on to predict that eventually the United States would fall into this pattern also. But, would this suggest that, while we are a developed country, our culture is less developed than some other countries that have moved away from such a close relationship between religion and government?

thejinxchan · October 2013

In the Philippines, you used to have to have two separate marriages - one in the courthouse and one in the church (church was mandatory, since the Philippines is very, very Catholic) and this was so when my mom got married in the 70's. I think nowadays they have merged the two into one, but they can still opt to do two separate ceremonies.

Here in the UAE, Muslims must be married in a Sharia court of law, which means they have to have a separate day for their ceremony festivities. Since they tend to have a lot of money here from their government, they throw some pretty lavish parties. For like, half the wedding, the men and women are separated and the women dress up in elaborate gowns and shed their face coverings (if they wear it) and their black abayas since there are no men. I have never attended one but I hear they are quite pricey.

psychbabe314 · October 2013

thejinxchan said:

In the Philippines, you used to have to have two separate marriages - one in the courthouse and one in the church (church was mandatory, since the Philippines is very, very Catholic) and this was so when my mom got married in the 70's. I think nowadays they have merged the two into one, but they can still opt to do two separate ceremonies.

Here in the UAE, Muslims must be married in a Sharia court of law, which means they have to have a separate day for their ceremony festivities. Since they tend to have a lot of money here from their government, they throw some pretty lavish parties. For like, half the wedding, the men and women are separated and the women dress up in elaborate gowns and shed their face coverings (if they wear it) and their black abayas since there are no men. I have never attended one but I hear they are quite pricey.

The muslim party would be amazing to see!

minskat30 · October 2013

That is right @thejinxchan, I forgot about that. I went to a Muslim wedding (one of H's friends) and they were married before the party. Men and women weren't seperated there since H's friend is not a strict Muslim but there was no dancing (which I understand but was sort of bummed about) and obviously no alcohol.

psychbabe314 · October 2013

minskat30 said:

That is right @thejinxchan, I forgot about that. I went to a Muslim wedding (one of H's friends) and they were married before the party. Men and women weren't seperated there since H's friend is not a strict Muslim but there was no dancing (which I understand but was sort of bummed about) and obviously no alcohol.

More and more of my friends are getting engaged, so starting next fall I will probably be going to more weddings. Right now, I only have a few to think back too, but I would love to be invited to friends' of ours that have different religions.

bride2b71614 · October 2013

I just found out that in Peru, they have a court wedding, followed by a ceremony then a reception. Information thanks to FI's jackass of a cousin....That aside, its so interesting how cultures and religions differ in so many ways in terms of marriage.

psychbabe314 · October 2013

bride2b71614 said:

I just found out that in Peru, they have a court wedding, followed by a ceremony then a reception. Information thanks to FI's jackass of a cousin....That aside, its so interesting how cultures and religions differ in so many ways in terms of marriage.

That is what I am thinking while I am looking through this textbook, it just makes me think about the etiquette board though and the way that they jump people who have separate events. Why is it so different in our country?

bride2b71614 · October 2013

Maybe its because we play into the wedding industry more than other countries? Cultural competency is a very hard thing to learn. I mean I don't think that all OP brides posting threads on the etiquette board should have to preface with I am from a different country/culture... but when we reply we don't necessarily understand the culture or whats involved people can jump down the op's throat without realizing how culturally insensitive they are being. Over all, cultural competency is a must, and its definitely possible to make the inadvertent mistake of assuming that everyone posting is from the US.

Also, the fact that we refer to it as a PPD is a cultural thing. Its normal in other countries to have two wedding ceremonies and not for ours, thus we can't put our judgey pants on and lash out.

psychbabe314 · October 2013

bride2b71614 said:

Maybe its because we play into the wedding industry more than other countries? Cultural competency is a very hard thing to learn. I mean I don't think that all OP brides posting threads on the etiquette board should have to preface with I am from a different country/culture... but when we reply we don't necessarily understand the culture or whats involved people can jump down the op's throat without realizing how culturally insensitive they are being. Over all, cultural competency is a must, and its definitely possible to make the inadvertent mistake of assuming that everyone posting is from the US.

Also, the fact that we refer to it as a PPD is a cultural thing. Its normal in other countries to have two wedding ceremonies and not for ours, thus we can't put our judgey pants on and lash out.

Hmmm... this is really interesting, but why has it developed in our culture this way? Why does the U.S. view it is "improper" whereas other countries have developed into it being the norm? Will the U.S. eventually reach a point where we have two wedding ceremonies? A civil ceremony and then an optional religious ceremony?

leia1979 · October 2013

I do think this is because in the US you can have a one-shot deal. Personally, I don't even mind the separate events if people are honest with all the guests. I have a problem with being lied to. A friend got married at a courthouse weeks before her bachelorette party. Only a few people knew, and I really resented having to keep that secret and still go through with pre-wedding parties.

I have one set of friends who had three different cultural ceremonies and one reception all in the same day. I don't have any issue with that either.

bride2b71614 · October 2013

@lela1979, I cannot agree with you more! Although, if a couple has a court house wedding, then have a delayed reception, is it still considered a PPD or is it something else. I mean no harm no foul, they had a ceremony, they can have a reception as long as they aren't lying to others saying oh we never got married...thats the only time I am kind of like well does this count?

leia1979 · October 2013

bride2b71614 said:

@lela1979, I cannot agree with you more! Although, if a couple has a court house wedding, then have a delayed reception, is it still considered a PPD or is it something else. I mean no harm no foul, they had a ceremony, they can have a reception as long as they aren't lying to others saying oh we never got married...thats the only time I am kind of like well does this count?

I don't know what E would say to it, but I think you could treat it like an at-home reception for a destination wedding. In my opinion, I would have no issue at all. They had a small/private ceremony earlier and are now having just a reception. Cool.

psychbabe314 · October 2013

@lela1979, I feel the same way honestly.

@bride2b71614, I don't think it is a PPD then... but I might be wrong!

Dutch Jessica · October 2013

leia1979 said:

I know in some European countries, separate civil and religious ceremonies are common. I just can't recall which countries at the moment. Only the civil ceremony is required, but if you want a separate religious one, you can have it.

This is the case in the Netherlands as well, the civil ceremony is the one that is the binding one, at least for the government/taxes/social security etc.

I think it's because at some point they officialy separated Religion from State. Religious ceremonies are becoming more and more rare here.

psychbabe314 · October 2013

Dutch Jessica said:

leia1979 said:

I know in some European countries, separate civil and religious ceremonies are common. I just can't recall which countries at the moment. Only the civil ceremony is required, but if you want a separate religious one, you can have it.

This is the case in the Netherlands as well, the civil ceremony is the one that is the binding one, at least for the government/taxes/social security etc.
I think it's because at some point they officialy separated Religion from State. Religious ceremonies are becoming more and more rare here.

Hmmm... How do people usually celebrate it? A civil ceremony with a reception? Or is marriage more private?

icecreamS04 · October 2013

In Germany the civil ceremony is the binding one too.

However, in the eyes of the Catholic Church you are not going to be married until you said the 'I do'-s in a Catholic ceremony. The Lutheran Church recognises your civil ceremony as marriage and as it isn't a sacrament in the Lutheran Church, the service is not a wedding, but a blessing of the newlyweds and their commitment to each other.

Having a legal ceremony for financial reasons (health insurance, higher pay for civil servants and teachers, taxes) with no or a very small reception is pretty common here. I don't sighteye if people choose to have a religious ceremony later.

But in the past years it became terribly common to have a person who ordinates a fake do-over for no apparent reason years after they got married legally with a large reception to follow this, which I do consider a PPD.

thejinxchan · October 2013

@minskat30 If it was held in the US, then they probably would n't have separated the men and women, because it's a bit more lax. But of course in a Muslim country it's much more stricter. I think they eventually bring both parties together but by that time the women usually cover up (except I don't know what the bride does..)

I really don't see the issue with couples being legally married before their celebration. Yes, they should make it known they are already legally married, but if they don't, then they should have a good reason. When I was MOH at my best friend's wedding, she revealed to me that her and her hubby had gotten legally married about 6 months before the wedding, and that only their parents were in attendance. The reason? Her and hubby were both int he air force (she was currently deployed in S. Korea so they did it at the courthouse when she was last visiting) and it was crucial for them to get their paperwork sorted, because she was immediately going to Japan after the wedding. They wanted to go together. I was a little hurt that it was kept from me being her best friend, but then I realized that it has nothing to do with our friendship, but solely between her and her husband and their life together.

I think if there are important reasons people do their legal marriage before their church/celebration, then it's really none of our business. People do it all the time because maybe it works better for their situation. Expats in Dubai do it because it's illegal to cohabit here (and because many companies offer big allowances and benefits to married couples) so I have known a few to do it and then hold a big celebration later, usually in their home countries. FI and I are considering it.. However, for people to just up and elope because they want to and then expect everyone to still attend their celebration as a first time wedding is wrong..

bride2b71614 · October 2013

Wait, there are a few questions I have for @thejinxchan. While I understand your friend's situation (and that there were extenuating circumstances), did they also inform their entire guest list that they were married before the wedding ceremony/reception took place? If they only told close friends (and told you not to inform everyone else per their request), that would be a slight form of deception. If your friends passed their wedding off as a "first time wedding" without telling everyone, it could fall into a grey area in terms of PPDs (maybe I misinterpreted the information by filling in the gaps with assumptions, and I apologize if I did).

That being said, I do agree that there are different cultural values, and different circumstances in which a wedding wouldn't fall into the PPD category. But there are more components to a PPD in the USA (that isn't related to different cultural aspects) that we didn't really touch upon: doing a separate wedding/PPD for gifts. I've seen threads related to this topic. I think that the OP had a friend who everyone knew was married for 2 years received an invite to a wedding and was confused as to why she was getting an invite to a wedding that she thought already took place. We see this happen a lot, usually a couple is legally married (be it by the JOP, whomever,etc.) without telling anyone, they then send out invites that say, hey everyone come to our wedding btw we are registered at XYZ place. I am the type of person who would buy the couple an item from their registry (just to clarify gifts are never mandatory, nor should they be expected by a couple). If I purchase an item that the couple registered for, I would be under the assumption that its for the couple's "first wedding", not for a separate occasion. If you tell me its a separate occasion, cool, I won't feel duped if I find out that its not a first wedding. People get married, they don't get a "do-over" within that marriage (ie don't call it a wedding if its not the "first wedding", if its a few years after the wedding, call it a vow renewal or even a reception). To clarify: I am only going off the stereotypical USA traditional standard, the examples provided above exclude all other cultures/religions in which it isn't taboo to have two weddings occur (ie jop then ceremony then reception at different times).

thejinxchan · October 2013

@bride2b Only their parents, who were witnesses at their courthouse wedding, knew. She told me the day before their ceremony, which was like 6 months after they had done it at the courthouse. But it's not like they were spending those 6 months basking in newlywed bliss. She was home from S. Korea on a 2 week visit and then promptly went back to finish out her last 6 months contract before having her wedding in Phoenix.. and then a few weeks later the two of them both going off to Japan together.

zizibet · October 2013

In France, Switzerland, and a couple of other European countries, church and state are totally separate. A religious ceremony is not at all legally binding-but no religious figure will marry a het couple without the legal ceremony-which must be performed by a government authority-having been performed.
    I have French cousins, and some of them are devout Catholics. Generally, they go have the civil ceremony performed at the town hall, with just parents in attendance, and have a full Catholic mass and reception the next day. They don't consider themselves married until the mass.
   I have other cousins who aren't devout at all, and just consider the civil ceremony sufficient.
   The difference in the US is that either ceremony is binding legally, so couples who have PPDs are just being rude.

500days · October 2013

thejinxchan said:
@bride2b Only their parents, who were witnesses at their courthouse wedding, knew. She told me the day before their ceremony, which was like 6 months after they had done it at the courthouse. But it's not like they were spending those 6 months basking in newlywed bliss. She was home from S. Korea on a 2 week visit and then promptly went back to finish out her last 6 months contract before having her wedding in Phoenix.. and then a few weeks later the two of them both going off to Japan together.

Sounds like this was a PPD. I know you dont care, but it kind of bothers me when people do this. The second ceremony must have been really interesting.

Are PPD's a world-wide thing?

Re: Are PPD's a world-wide thing?

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