Found a planned PPD on the news

MadHops21 · January 2014

(In Illinois) 1ST COUPLE OF 2014: Congratulations to the first couple in Cook County to get married in 2014: Ricca Rivera and Fernando Chaidez!

Rivera and Chaidez had to push their car out of the snow to make it to the county clerk’s office early yesterday morning. Not only do they get special recognition as the 1st couple of 2014, but several local businesses donated prizes as a wedding gift, including a weekend stay at the Palmer House Hilton.

They were officially married when the office opened at 8:30 a.m., and will have a church ceremony early next month.

linky

firebabe6519 · January 2014

Ugh! I understand getting the paperwork and license early for when you will sign it on your wedding day but really? Having a PPD just to win free crap. For shame...

thisismynickname2 · January 2014

I'm going to split hairs, but the "church ceremony" could still be just a covalidation (I think it's called). Let's hope.

If they did it just to get the gifts.... ew.

MadHops21 · January 2014

In the article, it sounded like they would have a church ceremony and a reception (dancing). I get the celebration, but a church ceremony? I hope you're right, @thisismynickname

bremnerschmitz · January 2014

Well, my friend did the same thing but I in no way thought it was a PPD - Their wedding was in MN, but they lived in PA, and for various reasons it was better for them to get the license done in PA 3 weeks before their wedding.

For some people the piece of paper isn't the marriage, making the commitment in front of their friends and family is the thing they want to celebrate.

JCbride2015 · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said:

Well, my friend did the same thing but I in no way thought it was a PPD - Their wedding was in MN, but they lived in PA, and for various reasons it was better for them to get the license done in PA 3 weeks before their wedding.

For some people the piece of paper isn't the marriage, making the commitment in front of their friends and family is the thing they want to celebrate.

Are you new around here? It would probably be a good idea to go read the announcements/stickies over on the Etiquette board.

bremnerschmitz · January 2014

@JCBride2014

I have read those etiquette boards and frankly I disagree with them and find them offensive. Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but telling someone they don't deserve to celebrate their love and their relationship with their family because the date they're doing it doesn't match the date on a legal document makes no sense to me. I get being annoyed with those who do it just for the attention and the presents, but that's not everyone's reason.

I just feel like there's a lot of hate out there for these brides, like they don't deserve to be planning a wedding because they're "not a REAL bride." Sometimes there's legitimate reasons that their legal document says a different date and that doesn't mean the rest of the world gets to shun them because they want a formal ceremony (or in many cases, their family wants them to have the formal ceremony)

And for the record (because I know this assumption will be made) my fiance and I are not married and have no plans to do so prior to the ceremony.

JCbride2015 · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said:

@JCBride2014

I have read those etiquette boards and frankly I disagree with them and find them offensive. Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but telling someone they don't deserve to celebrate their love and their relationship with their family because the date they're doing it doesn't match the date on a legal document makes no sense to me. I get being annoyed with those who do it just for the attention and the presents, but that's not everyone's reason.

I just feel like there's a lot of hate out there for these brides, like they don't deserve to be planning a wedding because they're "not a REAL bride." Sometimes there's legitimate reasons that their legal document says a different date and that doesn't mean the rest of the world gets to shun them because they want a formal ceremony (or in many cases, their family wants them to have the formal ceremony)

And for the record (because I know this assumption will be made) my fiance and I are not married and have no plans to do so prior to the ceremony.

Well, I don't know what to with this then. You find proper etiquette offensive? You condone lying and deceit? You advocate taking advantage of government benefits? You say "signing the papers" isn't a real wedding when there are thousands of same-sex couples struggling just to "sign the papers?"

If you really find it that offensive to follow proper etiquette, there is just no argument to be made about this.

kmmssg · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said:

@JCBride2014

I have read those etiquette boards and frankly I disagree with them and find them offensive. Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but telling someone they don't deserve to celebrate their love and their relationship with their family because the date they're doing it doesn't match the date on a legal document makes no sense to me. I get being annoyed with those who do it just for the attention and the presents, but that's not everyone's reason.

I just feel like there's a lot of hate out there for these brides, like they don't deserve to be planning a wedding because they're "not a REAL bride." Sometimes there's legitimate reasons that their legal document says a different date and that doesn't mean the rest of the world gets to shun them because they want a formal ceremony (or in many cases, their family wants them to have the formal ceremony)

And for the record (because I know this assumption will be made) my fiance and I are not married and have no plans to do so prior to the ceremony.

But they WERE a real bride! Why isn't being married by a JOP being a REAL bride? That is insane.

bremnerschmitz · January 2014

It's all about what makes the wedding REAL to the couple in my opinion.

I'm not saying the JOP has no value, and for many brides that may be what they find most important about a wedding, is the legal portion of it. to them it's not real until it's legal

For me it's not real until I make the commitment in front of my entire gigantic family that I love to pieces

Another couple might be deeply religious and they might feel that it's not "real" to them until their family pastor performs the ceremony

And for some same-sex couples, you're right, the legal ceremony might be the most important part because of the acceptance it represents. But for others, being surrounded by their family showing their love and support might be the most important thing in the world.

I just don't see the point in shaming someone because the thing they see as the most important, that makes the wedding REAL to them, is not the piece of paper.

JCbride2015 · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said: It's all about what makes the wedding REAL to the couple in my opinion.
I'm not saying the JOP has no value, and for many brides that may be what they find most important about a wedding, is the legal portion of it. to them it's not real until it's legal
For me it's not real until I make the commitment in front of my entire gigantic family that I love to pieces
Another couple might be deeply religious and they might feel that it's not "real" to them until their family pastor performs the ceremony
And for some same-sex couples, you're right, the legal ceremony might be the most important part because of the acceptance it represents. But for others, being surrounded by their family showing their love and support might be the most important thing in the world.
I just don't see the point in shaming someone because the thing they see as the most important, that makes the wedding REAL to them, is not the piece of paper.

But this doesn't answer any of our concerns about the PPD. Proper etiquette isn't a matter of opinion or what feels right to each person. It's a set of social laws that you either follow or break, it's not debatable. Etiquette is about treating your guests properly.

Once someone is legally married, they are married, and cannot have a wedding. I don't know why this is hard to understand. A wedding is when you become wed. Telling your guests you are having a wedding, when in fact you are already wed, is a lie. A PPD "bride" isn't a bride-- she was a bride at her JOP ceremony. She is a wife thereafter.

Nobody is saying PPD couples don't deserve to celebrate. The couple can still have the big party they want, and celebrate with their family and friends. Just don't have a ceremony or call it a wedding, because they already had a wedding.

Part of getting married is becoming a mature adult and starting one's own family. We all have to weigh different factors in how and when to get married. Part of that is realizing you can't have your cake and eat it too: if the paper is important enough that you needed it for government benefits, then it's also important enough to recognize yeah, you are really married. It's just intellectually incompatible to use the "paper" for the benefits but then somehow also claim it isn't "real."

Edited: freakin' quote boxes.

bremnerschmitz · January 2014

JCBride2014 said:

bremnerschmitz said:

It's all about what makes the wedding REAL to the couple in my opinion.

I'm not saying the JOP has no value, and for many brides that may be what they find most important about a wedding, is the legal portion of it. to them it's not real until it's legal

For me it's not real until I make the commitment in front of my entire gigantic family that I love to pieces

Another couple might be deeply religious and they might feel that it's not "real" to them until their family pastor performs the ceremony

And for some same-sex couples, you're right, the legal ceremony might be the most important part because of the acceptance it represents. But for others, being surrounded by their family showing their love and support might be the most important thing in the world.

I just don't see the point in shaming someone because the thing they see as the most important, that makes the wedding REAL to them, is not the piece of paper.

But this doesn't answer any of our concerns about the PPD. Proper etiquette isn't a matter of opinion or what feels right to each person. It's a set of social laws that you either follow or break, it's not debatable. Etiquette is about treating your guests properly.

Once someone is legally married, they are married, and cannot have a wedding. I don't know why this is hard to understand. A wedding is when you become wed. Telling your guests you are having a wedding, when in fact you are already wed, is a lie. A PPD "bride" isn't a bride-- she was a bride at her JOP ceremony. She is a wife thereafter.

Nobody is saying PPD couples don't deserve to celebrate. The couple can still have the big party they want, and celebrate with their family and friends. Just don't have a ceremony or call it a wedding, because they already had a wedding.

Part of getting married is becoming a mature adult and starting one's own family. We all have to weigh different factors in how and when to get married. Part of that is realizing you can't have your cake and eat it too: if the paper is important enough that you needed it for government benefits, then it's also important enough to recognize yeah, you are really married. It's just intellectually incompatible to use the "paper" for the benefits but then somehow also claim it isn't "real."

Edited: freakin' quote boxes.

And part of being a mature adult is realizing that not everyone in this world has the same priorities and that's no reason to shame them. I've seen brides verbally attacked over and over on these boards because of this issue and frankly I think "proper etiquette" is constantly violated by these rude individuals who have decided that they get to decide the definition of a wedding for other couples.

I'm not defending those who do this to manipulate govt benefits, or those who do it for the presents and attention. But frankly, I just mentioned this debate to my FI and he actually asked if we can travel to his home state a bit before the wedding to do the paperwork there so we have ties to his home state, as we're doing the ceremony in my home state. Not for monetary reasons, not to take advantage of "the system", but because that would hold meaning for my fiancee.

bethsmiles · January 2014

If the legal part isn't real enough for you then why bother with it at all?

Also I love how you said you have no plans to have a PPD and in the same thread have decided it's an excellent idea and you are going to consider it after all.

bremnerschmitz · January 2014

I'm only doing the legal part because my fiancee wants to. I frankly could care less, the legality doesn't matter to me. I get that it matters to other people, but to me it only means I get to be added to his health insurance. That isn't marriage in my mind, it's a piece of paper.

And if you read what I said, I only changed my mind after mentioning this to my fiancee who decided he would like to do the legal part of things in his home state. (so terribly sorry that I offended you by changing my mind to respect what my fiancee wants to do)

MobKaz · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said:

Well, my friend did the same thing but I in no way thought it was a PPD - Their wedding was in MN, but they lived in PA, and for various reasons it was better for them to get the license done in PA 3 weeks before their wedding.

For some people the piece of paper isn't the marriage, making the commitment in front of their friends and family is the thing they want to celebrate.

MobKaz · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said:

I'm only doing the legal part because my fiancee wants to. I frankly could care less, the legality doesn't matter to me. I get that it matters to other people, but to me it only means I get to be added to his health insurance. That isn't marriage in my mind, it's a piece of paper.

And if you read what I said, I only changed my mind after mentioning this to my fiancee who decided he would like to do the legal part of things in his home state. (so terribly sorry that I offended you by changing my mind to respect what my fiancee wants to do)

In case there are other things your fiancee wants to do, and you feel compelled to follow suit, whether it makes sense or not........

monkeysip · January 2014

thisismynickname said:

I'm going to split hairs, but the "church ceremony" could still be just a covalidation (I think it's called). Let's hope.

If they did it just to get the gifts.... ew.

Having a convalidation a month later makes no sense. Convalidations are for those who didn't marry in the church and decide later to make things right and get their marriage recognized by the church.

Why would you purposefully marry at the courthouse and plan a convalidation for a month later? That's not the purpose of a convalidation, and a lot of times, if the priest finds out the circumstances, he'll refuse to perform it.

JCbride2015 · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said:

I'm only doing the legal part because my fiancee wants to. I frankly could care less, the legality doesn't matter to me. I get that it matters to other people, but to me it only means I get to be added to his health insurance. That isn't marriage in my mind, it's a piece of paper.

And if you read what I said, I only changed my mind after mentioning this to my fiancee who decided he would like to do the legal part of things in his home state. (so terribly sorry that I offended you by changing my mind to respect what my fiancee wants to do)

Ugh. This is such a disrespectful attitude toward marriage. You want the benefits (health insurance) but claim the marriage doesn't matter because it's just a piece of paper. Your Fi thinks the marriage ceremony is important enough to do it in his home state, but not important enough to acknowledge that marriage in his home state would, indeed, make you married.

JCbride2015 · January 2014

@bremnerschmitz One more thought about this. I'm sure you came on here knowing exactly what you were getting into trying to stir us up with the whole PPD thing. You will never change the fact that PPDs are against etiquette, and we won't change your mind if you decide to have one. Just because something is improper etiquette doesn't mean the Wedding Police are going to come arrest you. They sky won't fall down on you (though you may damage some IRL relationships... but hey, we warned you).

But please, please, do not lie to your guests. This is the really unforgivable part of a PPD for me. If a couple is upfront that they are already married and invite everyone to a celebration with no ceremony, great! Wonderful! If they're already married and invite everyone to a do-over ceremony, I'll think it's AWish and immature, but at least they're honest and guests know what they're getting into by attending. But anybody who lies about whether they are married or not, just so they can take advantage of government or financial benefits before their big party, is the scum of the earth in my book. That couple is lying to their closest loved ones, starting their marriage off with deceit, and dishonestly luring their friends and family to a fake "wedding." And yeah, no matter what the stated reason, that comes off as being all about the party and the gifts. And it insults people who had JOP weddings, not to mention same-sex couples fighting for legal recognition.

At least be honest and let guests make up their own minds about whether to come to the do-over wedding or not. The guests are spending time and money to go to a celebration, and they at the very least deserve to have all the information about whether they are really going to a wedding or not.

HisGirlFriday13 · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said:

It's all about what makes the wedding REAL to the couple in my opinion.

I'm not saying the JOP has no value, and for many brides that may be what they find most important about a wedding, is the legal portion of it. to them it's not real until it's legal

For me it's not real until I make the commitment in front of my entire gigantic family that I love to pieces

Another couple might be deeply religious and they might feel that it's not "real" to them until their family pastor performs the ceremony

And for some same-sex couples, you're right, the legal ceremony might be the most important part because of the acceptance it represents. But for others, being surrounded by their family showing their love and support might be the most important thing in the world.

I just don't see the point in shaming someone because the thing they see as the most important, that makes the wedding REAL to them, is not the piece of paper.

Then you get your fucking shit together and do ONE wedding on ONE day that is both legal and religious.

JFC, why is this so fucking hard for people? YOU GET ONE DAY. Figure out how to make that one day what you want, but don't denigrate a legal wedding as "not real" just because everybody and their mother didn't spend the day telling you how beautiful you looked in your dress or giving you gifts or whatever.

bremnerschmitz · January 2014

Ok, honestly, I didn't want this to turn into such a huge discussion.

Frankly, all I wanted to say is that people on these boards are INCREDIBLY cruel to anyone who even hints at something that YOU all have decided is to be called a "Pretty Princess Day".

I really don't care if the world of "etiquette" approves of my life or not. And you guys can say all the horrible things you want about me because I'm willing to consider doing it (still not even saying I'm doing it btw - just willing to consider it cuz my FI wants to).

But I have seen brides on these board come for real help because they have a real question about their wedding, and they are TORN APART because all of you have decided this one detail makes them completely unworthy of having their opinions heard or getting any input on their celebration. It's like middle school bullying. Honestly, grow up. Respect that people in this world have different life situations and different priorities and that doesn't make them a horrible human being.

I see everyone being INCREDIBLY judgmental and rude. And frankly, I'm pretty sure that's much more of a violation of the world of etiquette than the oh so dreaded PPD.

MobKaz · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said:

Ok, honestly, I didn't want this to turn into such a huge discussion.

Frankly, all I wanted to say is that people on these boards are INCREDIBLY cruel to anyone who even hints at something that YOU all have decided is to be called a "Pretty Princess Day".

I really don't care if the world of "etiquette" approves of my life or not. And you guys can say all the horrible things you want about me because I'm willing to consider doing it (still not even saying I'm doing it btw - just willing to consider it cuz my FI wants to).

But I have seen brides on these board come for real help because they have a real question about their wedding, and they are TORN APART because all of you have decided this one detail makes them completely unworthy of having their opinions heard or getting any input on their celebration. It's like middle school bullying. Honestly, grow up. Respect that people in this world have different life situations and different priorities and that doesn't make them a horrible human being.

I see everyone being INCREDIBLY judgmental and rude. And frankly, I'm pretty sure that's much more of a violation of the world of etiquette than the oh so dreaded PPD.

Holding disdain for those who lie is not an attribute limited to women on The Knot.

Many posters have made it clear that it is NOT the PPD in and of itself that creates the uproar, it is the deliberate deceit in attempting to conceal that fact that it is a charade. The uproar is also created by the inherent mockery made of the diminished "paper signing".

It is also telling when advocates of PPD's, particularly those who LIE about it, spend more time crying, "attack", "bully", and "cruel", rather than explain/argue their point. That's what you do when you have no argument, or point. I do not consider lying a mere "detail".

Yes, people most certainly have different priorities. Different priorities do not make a person horrible. Lying about such priorities does make me question the character of someone. I have no respect for liars.

bremnerschmitz · January 2014

Who said anything in this ENTIRE thread about these brides lying intentionally (excluding those who are against this oh so horrible PPD using that as an argument as to why its so bad) The first couple mentioned literally announced on the news that they'd already done the legal ceremony. My friend that I mentioned made no attempt to hide it.

If I were to chose to do it frankly I'd likely display the out-of state marriage license with a sign stating why it was significant to my FI to do that part in his home state.

And I've posted 4 times arguing my point, and one time stating that brides are attacked about this issue. Sooooo... how exactly am I spending more time crying "attack" and "bully"?

Go ahead and hate on the liars, but don't assume that everyone is.

MobKaz · January 2014

bremnerschmitz said: Who said anything in this ENTIRE thread about these brides lying intentionally (excluding those who are against this oh so horrible PPD using that as an argument as to why its so bad) The first couple mentioned literally announced on the news that they'd already done the legal ceremony. My friend that I mentioned made no attempt to hide it. If I were to chose to do it frankly I'd likely display the out-of state marriage license with a sign stating why it was significant to my FI to do that part in his home state.
And I've posted 4 times arguing my point, and one time stating that brides are attacked about this issue. Sooooo... how exactly am I spending more time crying "attack" and "bully"?
Go ahead and hate on the liars, but don't assume that everyone is.

Your defensiveness is what makes you think you are being attacked. I made general points in my post.

Let's not kid ourselves. There are countless posts on these boards where brides admit they are lying about their reenactment. Whether it happened on this particular post is irrelevant. There in fact is an embarrassing, frightening historical perspective regarding brides who lie for self serving purposes. If you find no fault with lying, God love you.

ETA....by saying, "If you find no fault with lying, God love you., I am NOT calling you out as a liar. I am stating that if you are OK with people who lie about their reenactment, or anything else for that matter, God love you. I cannot be as generous with people who show so little respect for themselves or their friends and family.

Found a planned PPD on the news

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