WTF?(or am I the only 1?)

Cheetah2B · January 2014

At any rate. If you're familiar with military life, then you know terms like "card chaser, barracks rats, contract marriages" etc.

So here's a question, based on a thread on another site.

boy wants out of barracks. meets girl, marries girl. they START DATING after being MARRIED. then there's the classic "we fell in love and had babies"! like they did it the traditional way. no one knows they're married.

then, they(probably she), want to plan a "vow renewal aka wedding"(and no one is sure what to call it, bc only a handful of people know the truth!), b/c now they have this wonderful life.

here's THE question. wtf do ya'll think of this?! I called it like I saw it. A contract marriage, BAH fraud(in her thread she says this is what the marriage was about to begin with), and I essentially could have gone on, but I mostly covered those 2, a couple times, in different wording. You know, JIC she didn't get it.

Don't get me wrong, that's "great" they turned it around. But conspiracy to commit fraud, followed by the fraudulent act, and THEN wanting to celebrate it?! Am I the only one calling it what it is? It actually super pissed me off, b/c while I've known people who've done CM's, NO ONE usually knows. NOR do they generally celebrate it! I do give props, b/c they're actually "together" now. But still.

(and before anyone recognizes me from that board, yes, my FH did this. he gets shit from me, and he gives me shit for mine. We've both done it. But, we aren't with those people, and I was actually dating the guy I married. I just wasn't willing to run cross country with my ex's kid).

Inkdancer · January 2014

I don't think I understand. So.... they got married in private so he could get better housing? And now they're celebrating because it turns out they like each other?

Sounds like a PPD with an even more sordid backstory.

Cheetah2B · January 2014

YES YES YES!!!

x years later, and kids, now they/she wants a big wedding for family etc. BUT, her post made it seem like outside of her and her H, only 3 people have known they're already married. So they're essentially celebrating the fact that they ended up falling in love, and that they're still together.

o_O

AddieCake · January 2014

That gets a big WTF from me, too.

kmmssg · January 2014

Wow - that's certainly not the norm! My FSIL was telling me that the last time his unit deployed they had some younger guys marrying strippers to get the higher BAH. Needless to say, those were shortlived marriages.

I truly have no words for this person's plans!

delujm0 · January 2014

I don't understand why people will screm all day about the poor abusing government benefits in various ways, but when members of the military do it, it's totally cool. Look, i appreciate that they're giving their lives to fight for our freedom, but that doesn't give them the right to commit fraud. This situation is just as bad as when a single mother won't marry the father of her children because if she had to include his income she would no longer qualify for goverment housing/food stamps/etc. (and that does happen, i used to work with housing authorities, and i've seen it).

The above is unacceptable. I mean good for them for making it work out, but when i think about all of the people that do that and then immediately get divorced post-deployment, it makes my blood boil at the way my tax dollars are being used.

Also, if you "need" (read: want) more money while deployed (or housing benefits, or whatever) and get maried to accomplish that, your wedding has already happened. there is no reason at all to have a second one unless you have gotten divorced in the interim. Just because you're in the military doesn't make you different from the civilians. I'd side-eye a big "wedding" for two civilians who had a JOP ceremony to get healthcare benefits but then want to put on a "real wedding" years later...this is exactly the same as that.

Jells2dot0 · January 2014

delujm0 said:

I don't understand why people will screm all day about the poor abusing government benefits in various ways, but when members of the military do it, it's totally cool. Look, i appreciate that they're giving their lives to fight for our freedom, but that doesn't give them the right to commit fraud. This situation is just as bad as when a single mother won't marry the father of her children because if she had to include his income she would no longer qualify for goverment housing/food stamps/etc. (and that does happen, i used to work with housing authorities, and i've seen it).

The above is unacceptable. I mean good for them for making it work out, but when i think about all of the people that do that and then immediately get divorced post-deployment, it makes my blood boil at the way my tax dollars are being used.

Also, if you "need" (read: want) more money while deployed (or housing benefits, or whatever) and get maried to accomplish that, your wedding has already happened. there is no reason at all to have a second one unless you have gotten divorced in the interim. Just because you're in the military doesn't make you different from the civilians. I'd side-eye a big "wedding" for two civilians who had a JOP ceremony to get healthcare benefits but then want to put on a "real wedding" years later...this is exactly the same as that.

I work on a base (as a contractor- not military) and the abuse I see is rampant. I'm not okay with it at all. I am sure when some of the people I work with talk about this kind of stuff, and they see my eyes bulge, they realize they shouldn't talk to me about it anymore. There are certainly lots of ways to scam the system and it sucks, but to do it and then try to be even more frivilous about it by throwing an unnecessary party is just all sorts of wrong.

Amyzen83 · January 2014

Wow wow and wow! I have no words except this type of behavior is dishonest followed by more dishonesty by having an extravagant ppd! Look I get that not everyone gets married for love, civilians do it too but if they are going to marry for dishonest reasons then I'm sorry they don't deserve a "nice" wedding.

Amyzen83 · January 2014

Id also like to add a JOP wedding is good enough because that's what makes you married

JCbride2015 · January 2014

Yep, gets a big WTF from me as well. They sound like horrible people who abused government benefits and now want a big show that it worked out for them.

nsweare · January 2014

I don't like PPDs which is what she wants here. But are we saying that the government should get involved in the reasons people get married? People get married for reasons other than love all the time.

Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to marry for a green card. I don't think the government has any business deciding what is a good reason to get married and what is not.

Maggie0829 · January 2014

nsweare said:

I don't like PPDs which is what she wants here. But are we saying that the government should get involved in the reasons people get married? People get married for reasons other than love all the time. Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to marry for a green card. I don't think the government has any business deciding what is a good reason to get married and what is not.

I tend to agree but I can also see where the government would want to intervene when it involves using that marriage only as a way to gain government benefits. KWIM? At that point you are just playing the system.

nsweare · January 2014

Maggie0829 said:

nsweare said:

I don't like PPDs which is what she wants here. But are we saying that the government should get involved in the reasons people get married? People get married for reasons other than love all the time.

Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to marry for a green card. I don't think the government has any business deciding what is a good reason to get married and what is not.

I tend to agree but I can also see where the government would want to intervene when it involves using that marriage only as a way to gain government benefits. KWIM? At that point you are just playing the system.

Playing the system might be a better way to state it than fraud. I don't see how it's fraud. Fraud would be claiming to be married and having fake paperwork drawn up to fool the government. Getting legally married, and then getting the benefits of that legal marriage is hardly fraud.

Neither is choosing to not marry the father of your children and collecting food stamps. If you live with the father then you have to report his income, married or not. If he gives you money or pays your bills, you have to report that as well. If a person doesn't report, that is fraud and completely separate from the marriage issue.

delujm0 · January 2014

nsweare said:

I don't like PPDs which is what she wants here. But are we saying that the government should get involved in the reasons people get married? People get married for reasons other than love all the time. Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to marry for a green card. I don't think the government has any business deciding what is a good reason to get married and what is not.

That's a fine belief for you to have. But i wonder why the government DOES interfere in green card marriages all the time, forcing the couples to defend their relationships, but does NOT interfere in these questionable-sounding military weddings. It seems like a double standard. Especially because there is a greater chance of governmet money being involved in the military issue than there is in the green card issue.

FI's cousin married his Swedish girlfried of over 4 years in 2010. They had the wedding in Sweden. She was unable to come over here permanently for nearly a YEAR because of the paperwork. FI and several of the other Americans who attended the wedding had to write letters saying that they witnessed the legal marriage, and how long they had known the bride, and how long the bride and groom had dated before the wedding, etc. It was craziness. Yet if his cousin was in the military and married a random stripper to get greater benefits during deployment no one would ask questions?

Also FWIW the food stamps/government housing example i used above was a case where the father was both living with the mother and providing financial support but none of his income was claimed. So it was fraud. I've also seen things that aren't necessarily fraud but that are super questionable - like a married couple where the husband got a promotion and large raise at work, which disqualified them from maintaining their government housing. You know what happened? He quit his job so that they could stay in their house. That isn't direct fraud, it's just kind of ridiculous, so i wouldn't expect the government to step in or anything on that.

MrsP675 · January 2014

There's TONS of people that have quiet wedding ceremonies (I'm thinking of shot-gun weddings or runaway 18 year olds when I say this- haha!). If at some point down the road, these people would like to celebrate their relationship with some sort of re-commitment ceremony or party, say at a 10th wedding anniversary or something (I still dont think that she should get the whole package - white dress, multiple parties and presents...), I guess I would be ok with that. If they want to use this as some sort of cover-up for the fact that they are already married, then I say it's time to throw the WTF-flag. It was their decision to get married in the way that they did, and if they are going to stay together now, then that's great (Seriously - good for them!)- but they should have to tell their families that they are already married and that there was no "wedding".

Amyzen83 · January 2014

If your old enough and mature enough to tie the knot then you should wear your adult pants and own your decisions by telling your loves ones that you had a simple wedding

nsweare · January 2014

delujm0 said:

nsweare said:

I don't like PPDs which is what she wants here. But are we saying that the government should get involved in the reasons people get married? People get married for reasons other than love all the time. Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to marry for a green card. I don't think the government has any business deciding what is a good reason to get married and what is not.

That's a fine belief for you to have. But i wonder why the government DOES interfere in green card marriages all the time, forcing the couples to defend their relationships, but does NOT interfere in these questionable-sounding military weddings. It seems like a double standard. Especially because there is a greater chance of governmet money being involved in the military issue than there is in the green card issue.

FI's cousin married his Swedish girlfried of over 4 years in 2010. They had the wedding in Sweden. She was unable to come over here permanently for nearly a YEAR because of the paperwork. FI and several of the other Americans who attended the wedding had to write letters saying that they witnessed the legal marriage, and how long they had known the bride, and how long the bride and groom had dated before the wedding, etc. It was craziness. Yet if his cousin was in the military and married a random stripper to get greater benefits during deployment no one would ask questions?

Also FWIW the food stamps/government housing example i used above was a case where the father was both living with the mother and providing financial support but none of his income was claimed. So it was fraud. I've also seen things that aren't necessarily fraud but that are super questionable - like a married couple where the husband got a promotion and large raise at work, which disqualified them from maintaining their government housing. You know what happened? He quit his job so that they could stay in their house. That isn't direct fraud, it's just kind of ridiculous, so i wouldn't expect the government to step in or anything on that.

The reason the government doesn't get involved is because the Supreme Court has determined that there is a fundamental right to marry under our constitution. Therefore there must be a compelling state/ government interest in limiting that right. Also any limitation found compelling enough must be so narrowly tailored as to only slightly limit that right in specially determined circumstances. The courts have determined that making sure aliens aren't getting green cards through fraudulent marriages to be compelling enough. I still call bullshit because it forces people like your family to jump through horribly unnecessary hoops. Regardless, a government benefit such as citizenship is considered a far more compelling interest than a government interest in saving money on housing.

Sounds like we agree on the good stamp/ welfare issue. The fraud is unrelated to marriage per se. It is related to people not reporting income which is a completely separate issue.

kmmssg · January 2014

Here is my take after 26 years in the business: Some in personnel, supply, and pay, and now, post-retirement, I am a contractor in military pay.

There is a HUGE misunderstanding here about what is fraud with these benefits and what is not. I'd like to try to clear some of that up.

If a couple truly intends to be a married couple there is NO fraud being committed. The PPD stuff does not automatically equal fraud with the benefits. They may be moving the wedding day up to get those benefits now, but they were/are planning to be married despite the impending deployment. If they are really wanting to be married to each other and plan to be married, they are good to go. The PPD has nothing to do with that.

Now - lets talk about the story my FSIL told me about young guys in his unit marrying strippers just before they deployed, just to get BAH. That IS fraud. There is no intent to really be married to each other, it is an arrangement of convenience based solely on getting some extra money during deployment, and the plan is an annulment or divorce upon coming back home.

Every once in a great while you will read in Army Times about a Soldier being convicted of fraud for this. It is rare. Why? Because Commanders and First Sergeants don't have time to investigate your intentions about why you are getting married. A Soldier who is planning to commit fraud here isn't telling much of anyone his/her plans. I remember telling my chain of command I was getting married. There was no inquisition as to my intentions, just a "congratulations!" That is as it should be. Commanders and First Sergeants need to worry about getting equipment, getting their people in the schools they need to attend, and getting them trained for deployment. They can't investigate every Private Snuffy who says he/she is engaged.

Someone doing the military PPD thing is NOT commiting fraud. Poor etiquette? Yeah, but no fraud. They intend to stay married post-deployment.

Civilians move their wedding dates for benefits all the time and there is no fraud. My oldest DD has been married for almost 9 years. It became obvious that there was something going on with her and she needed medical insurance which she wouldn't have until she was married. She moved her July wedding to February, got married, got insurance. No fraud. She had her wedding in February, still married to the guy. That happens with deployments too.

My niece is an Army wife. They were married in September and he went to Korea in October for one year, unaccompanied. She lived at home with her parents instead of going out to Washington state where she knew no one to live in base housing. Did she commit fraud? No. They had been engaged for several months and actually moved their wedding from November to September because, originally he was do deploy to Afghanistan the following January, that got cancelled, and they said "Dude, pack your bags, you are going to Korea, alone."

So - be pissed off about PPDs, that is fine. Just understand what really constitutes fraud and know that PPD's don't have anything to do with it. Young stupid privates marrying strippers - now you are talking fraud.

delujm0 · January 2014

nsweare said:

The reason the government doesn't get involved is because the Supreme Court has determined that there is a fundamental right to marry under our constitution. Therefore there must be a compelling state/ government interest in limiting that right. Also any limitation found compelling enough must be so narrowly tailored as to only slightly limit that right in specially determined circumstances. The courts have determined that making sure aliens aren't getting green cards through fraudulent marriages to be compelling enough. I still call bullshit because it forces people like your family to jump through horribly unnecessary hoops. Regardless, a government benefit such as citizenship is considered a far more compelling interest than a government interest in saving money on housing. Sounds like we agree on the good stamp/ welfare issue. The fraud is unrelated to marriage per se. It is related to people not reporting income which is a completely separate issue.

I agree on this...but my question was if this is the case, why does the government get involved in "green card" marriages so often? It was so hard for FI's cousin to get his wife into this country, it was insane. And they had been together for YEARS, and were legally married in Sweden. A quick look at passport records would have indicated to the government how often they were visiting each other, or were together in the same foreign country, during that time.

If it's ok for the government to get involved in green card marriages, why don't they get involved in military ones? It seems like they need to do both or neither. though i guess that is a logical arguement, and i think we can all agree that logic doesn't really dictate our government's actions most of the time. Sigh.

I agree that the "moved up wedding date and PPD to follow" thing is an etiquette breach and not actual fraud - but the actual fraud that exists is so upsetting! and of course their superiors don't have time to investigate it, especially if they're getting ready to deploy. It's just so sad/upsetting that this even happens.

Cheetah2B · January 2014

It's under fraud. Trust me. They met however they met. In her thread she states "he wanted to get out of the barracks, so I married him. A MONTH LATER, WE STARTED DATING". It's fraud.

Oh hell yeah, contract marriages happen on the DAILY. Thing is, sometimes the finance office just doesn't know to get involved. But my XF, has seen multiple shipmates get BOOTED for Contracts. A good command will treat it as INS treats a GCM. Especially when they know a guy lives in the barracks, never takes leave, is always slumming. Then shows up on a Monday(and within the 7 days of changing their base/bah/sub pay), and are married. Oftentimes, he'd see the command inact the code the Navy has about having a marriage chit(essentially, paperwork from the command, stating they know you're getting married, and your stable enough to do it). My X didn't get a chit when he stupidly went AWOL and married his daughter's mom. He went to the brig, for 2 months(45 days for the AWOL, another 15 just bc he got married w/o a chit). A good command won't fk around, NOR will they cover for their men/women.

my FH did this, in a roundabout way. Well, more or less. He did the online thing for a year. They met and dated for about 2 weeks, when he got orders. So they went ahead and got married(AND found out she was preggo also). But, they still did it for the money. She wanted a gastric bypass, and went off and did it. They were still married(going into the 5th year of separation) when we got together. BC she didn't wanna lose her med coverage.

kmmssg · January 2014

Cheetah2B said:

It's under fraud. Trust me. They met however they met. In her thread she states "he wanted to get out of the barracks, so I married him. A MONTH LATER, WE STARTED DATING". It's fraud.

Oh hell yeah, contract marriages happen on the DAILY. Thing is, sometimes the finance office just doesn't know to get involved. But my XF, has seen multiple shipmates get BOOTED for Contracts. A good command will treat it as INS treats a GCM. Especially when they know a guy lives in the barracks, never takes leave, is always slumming. Then shows up on a Monday(and within the 7 days of changing their base/bah/sub pay), and are married. Oftentimes, he'd see the command inact the code the Navy has about having a marriage chit(essentially, paperwork from the command, stating they know you're getting married, and your stable enough to do it). My X didn't get a chit when he stupidly went AWOL and married his daughter's mom. He went to the brig, for 2 months(45 days for the AWOL, another 15 just bc he got married w/o a chit). A good command won't fk around, NOR will they cover for their men/women.

my FH did this, in a roundabout way. Well, more or less. He did the online thing for a year. They met and dated for about 2 weeks, when he got orders. So they went ahead and got married(AND found out she was preggo also). But, they still did it for the money. She wanted a gastric bypass, and went off and did it. They were still married(going into the 5th year of separation) when we got together. BC she didn't wanna lose her med coverage.

Cheetah - I don't doubt that your friends did a contract marriage, and yes it does happen. My point is every time someone posts about being part of a military couple and doing a PPD someone starts yelling "fraud" when it isn't.

hellohkb · January 2014

Maggie0829 said:

nsweare said:

I don't like PPDs which is what she wants here. But are we saying that the government should get involved in the reasons people get married? People get married for reasons other than love all the time. Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to marry for a green card. I don't think the government has any business deciding what is a good reason to get married and what is not.

I tend to agree but I can also see where the government would want to intervene when it involves using that marriage only as a way to gain government benefits. KWIM? At that point you are just playing the system.

Well said. I agree that I usually do not care why people get married, but I can see why the government would want to intervene in this case.

Jells2dot0 · February 2014

I am currently TDY at a military base. At work this morning, it was slow and I began talking to one of the supervisors on shift. I knew she was married, but today she started talking about her wedding. Say what??? She and her DH eloped last year in Las Vegas so they could be stationed together. It turns out she was super thrilled with the elopment and didn't want anything more. However, her ILs had a difference of opinion and decided that they needed a bigger affair and offered to pay for it. She seemed really disinterested in the planning of this "wedding" but wanted to make her new family happy. Not fraud, but most certainly a PPD!!! I am sad for her that she felt like she needs to do this.

wrigleyville · February 2014

Jells2dot0 said:

I am currently TDY at a military base. At work this morning, it was slow and I began talking to one of the supervisors on shift. I knew she was married, but today she started talking about her wedding. Say what??? She and her DH eloped last year in Las Vegas so they could be stationed together. It turns out she was super thrilled with the elopment and didn't want anything more. However, her ILs had a difference of opinion and decided that they needed a bigger affair and offered to pay for it. She seemed really disinterested in the planning of this "wedding" but wanted to make her new family happy. Not fraud, but most certainly a PPD!!! I am sad for her that she felt like she needs to do this.

That's too bad. Can't they do a vow renewal and skip all of the "big wedding" stuff? It might be a good compromise for her. It wouldn't be wedding-y, but they could still have invitations, a nice dinner, dancing, etc.

My aunt was really upset when my cousin and his wife eloped, so they agreed to have a reception. They wore a nice dress and suit, had pictures taken with everyone, had a cake (not a wedding cake), served dinner and drinks, had a DJ, etc. It was a lot like a wedding reception without being a wedding reception. Everyone had a GREAT time, and nobody cared that they didn't get to see a wedding ceremony. A lot of people brought them cards and gifts, which I thought was nice. My aunt had to scramble to set up a table for them since they weren't expecting that.

Jells2dot0 · February 2014

@wrigleyville- sounds like your cousin did things the right way! I'm glad that it worked out for them! Nothing wrong with celebrating

mrs4everhart · February 2014

I just need to say this: Regardless of what some may consider tacky (what many of you call "PPDs") and the subject of thwarting actual illegal fraudulent activity, I am not in favor of the government getting anymore involved in marriage than what they are already. Am I in favor of military personnel, or others for that matter, defrauding taxpayers? Meh, not especially. But what options are there to stop these types of things from occurring? What types of criteria would need to be set up in order to stop these things from happening? Waiting periods? Tribunals? Tests? Questionnaires? And who would be in charge of enforcement? I'm no more in favor of holding up military marriages than I am so-called green card marriages because I'm not fond of the idea of some investigator "investigating" the relationships of others. It's weird, intrusive and creepy. And most likely ineffective, bc like I said, how is this decided, that a relationship is "legit" and therefore the couple is allowed to wed and other couples fail and therefore they cannot wed? Yea, no thanks!

Cheetah2B · February 2014

Oh, definitely. I couldn't look at a couple and just say "fraud". I just know I can look at those who SAY the magic words "I want out of the barracks", and then let it slip they've started an ad on CL, and determine fraud, LOL...

Seriously though, CL has several ads in military areas, where the guys are saying "I want to move off base, you get free medical". My XH and I used to reply and patronize them

mrs4everhart · February 2014

Cheetah2B said:
Oh, definitely. I couldn't look at a couple and just say "fraud". I just know I can look at those who SAY the magic words "I want out of the barracks", and then let it slip they've started an ad on CL, and determine fraud, LOL...
Seriously though, CL has several ads in military areas, where the guys are saying "I want to move off base, you get free medical". My XH and I used to reply and patronize them

I can tell whether someone is full of shit or not too. But using poor judgement shouldn't be a criteria for whether or not one can get married in this country. If it was, poor Brittany Spears and Kim Kardashian would be forced to be spinsters for life. If someone finds a wife via CL for any reason, that's not my business, nor is it the business of the US government. Because some kid wants out of the barracks is probably more worthy IMO than many other relationships based on money or other conveniences. But none of them are my business, nor the business of the government. In fact, it sounds like a win-win to me. The kid gets a better living arrangement and the husband/wife gets health insurance. Still a better scenario than Kim and Kanye under any circumstance.

ETA: WTF quote box?!?!

abbyj700 · February 2014

nsweare said:

I don't like PPDs which is what she wants here. But are we saying that the government should get involved in the reasons people get married? People get married for reasons other than love all the time. Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to marry for a green card. I don't think the government has any business deciding what is a good reason to get married and what is not.

110% this.

And they could alleviate the issue by allowing single soldiers to live outside of the barracks as well, could they not?

WTF?(or am I the only 1?)

Re: WTF?(or am I the only 1?)

Choose Another Board

Search Boards