"Overpopulation?"

lalaith50 · February 2013

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323375204578270053387770718.html

"America's Baby Bust."

Fascinating article. Anyone care to discuss? (Or disagree and initiate an entertaining argument? :-P )

meltoine · February 2013

I don't think any amount of tax breaks or incentives can fix this. The underlying cultural attitude since the introduction of BCP has been that raising children is not a valuable path toward which to direct one's life. Women put off childbearing because going to college and having a career are most times the only way to feel valuable in our society. By the time we are 30-35, biologically, we care less about what other people think of us. That, combined with the knowledge that the fertile years are almost over, spurs women into childbearing because they have fifteen gas of valuable accomplishments in the work place to rest on, as well as an attitude that cares less for their peer's disapproval. Without a cultural shift in which childbearing becomes a valuable "career" path again, this problem will not go away.

lalaith50 · February 2013

I wonder what causes the decrease-in-percentage-points of "happiness" of those who have children? I wonder how they got that statistic? Did it include people of all ages, who have children of all ages? I wonder what sort of an "attitude" would help someone to be able to "benefit" in terms of happiness from having children? I'm thinking of someone like myself... I don't exactly *want* children, but from being a Catholic I know I should and that they really *are* a blessing from God. I wonder how I will actually feel upon having them? More, or less, happy?

TeaForMe · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_overpopulation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:1c879f45-9470-4c65-871b-cc624024022aPost:a57fad93-fc53-4d43-8b8b-2cd7964d43cf">Re: "Overpopulation?"</a>:
[QUOTE]I wonder what causes the decrease-in-percentage-points of "happiness" of those who have children? I wonder how they got that statistic? Did it include people of all ages, who have children of all ages? I wonder what sort of an "attitude" would help someone to be able to "benefit" in terms of happiness from having children? I'm thinking of someone like myself... I don't exactly *want* children, but from being a Catholic I know I should and that they really *are* a blessing from God. I wonder how I will actually feel upon having them? More, or less, happy?
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

I wonder this, too. It doesn't sound accurate to me. Personally, I don't think I am less happy than before I had a child. It is definitely a different kind of happiness, but I would never rank myself as less happy. And the parents I know would almost certainly say the same. in fact, I was surprised the study didn't find those with kids to be *happier*. If you are measuring happiness by today's standards of disposable income, free time, "independence" then those with kids probably would rank lower on those items, but it is just a totally different thing with kids. happiness before vs after kids is apples and oranges.

caitriona87 · February 2013

They may be measuring superficial good-feeling-type happiness (subjective) because that is what our culture generally means by happiness. Much different than the classical meaning of happiness--wisdom/fulfillment/becoming what one ought (objective.)

I dunno, I have personally found that I am much happier when I'm not worrying about whether or not I'm happy. Trying to be happy for its own sake will never work.

And having a kid is awesome. Not easy, but completely worth it. Like everything truly good in life.

monkeysip · February 2013

I still think that economics does play a role in how we choose to have children.

FI and I would definitely have children sooner if it weren't for the fact that we're both having difficulty finding suitable jobs. And we're not waiting until we can afford a college fund and a big house (like some people do and say they can't "afford" children), but at least until we know that we can securely pay for our regular bills before we add another person into it.

It also doesn't help that maternity leave sucks here. The attitude in so many companies is so anti-child and anti-mother, I'm worried about the prospect of not having a job anymore after I had a child. Teachers are on contract based employment for at least 3 years here, so I'm worried I'd find that inexplicably my contract wasn't renewed if I got pregnant.

And let's not get started on insurance.

I don't think economics is the only factor here at all. I agree that there is a very anti-child attitude in America and other western countries, a lot of which is just a result of a spiritual and moral decay. I'm just saying that I think our economy and social-structure is very anti-family, so it becomes somewhat of a ruthless cycle, with society feeding attitude and attitude feeding society.

femme55 · February 2013

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3345518/

Here's a detailed study on the link between fertility and happiness. I had heard about this in a marketing class I took in b-school. The study shows decreased happiness in child-bearers in their 20s-30s, but it evens out into the parents' 40s. Main factors would be lifestyle shock/ transition stress from being single/independent to being responsible for a helpless child. The study also includes other factors such as whether there's state support for child care, etc.

The WSJ article seems to really just want higher birth rates so more people can pay into the social security system! I don't buy the argument that we need more people for innovation/economic reasons. We already have a shortage of STEM specialists and take care of that with legal immigration from other countries. And I would look at the high birthrate societies--i.e. India, where people live in abject poverty, and the more children they have, the worse it is. Fertility isn't necessarily a good thing for society. If people can't afford to raise and educate a child it is not doing society any good for them to have the children. If we really want to encourage fertility we need more state support for lower-cost education, child-care, etc. The birth rate and societal resources need to be in equilibrium.

Riss91 · February 2013

My husband was meeting with a journalist friend this weekend and his friend commented:

"You (meaning my husband) and Tim are the only people I've ever heard talking about having 'kids' rather than 'a kid'. Most people spend a ton of time deciding whether they'll even have one, and then they really have to think about maybe having one more. You guys are the only ones contemplating more than one at a time."

It will be tough to handle the larger elderly populations' needs while having a lower ratio to support them - unless, like femme mentioned, we alter our govt/society to start re-thinking it's policies and programs.

Calypso1977 · February 2013

perhaps there is some truth to people with kids being less happy than people with kids simply because there are more people around them who dont have kids, thus more opportunity for them to have it in their faces that they somehow chose a less desireable or harder path.

a generation ago, pretty much everyone had kids and had them young because it was what you did. people who didnt have kids usually didnt have them not by choice, but because of a medical condition. and people felt bad for childless couples because it was assumed (probably rightly so) that it wasnt their choice.

i sometimes see resentful attitudes from my friends who have kids when i talk abotu whatever trip i took or some of the freedoms i enjoy becuase i am childless. the joke in my circle is that once someone has a kid, we never see them again, and they find "new friends" - others with kids once the baby comes.

i had a childless friend who told me hte other day she was sad because i and one other girl were the only friends she had left who didnt have kids and she was afraid we'd change our minds soon!!

i wonder too how much of the happiness statistic factored in single parents - dads in particular - who may be unhappy because they dont even get to see their kids yet pay exhorbitant child support and/or have constant fighting wtih the ex-spouse.

newlyseliski · February 2013

I see a lot of the rather narcissistic/nihilist attitude that having kids is not "green" and that it is a far better route to just not burden the earth with any more carbon footprints.

The #1 barrier from my perspective is health insurance... then childcare cost if I wanted to keep my job full time... I kinda hate being the primary breadwinner right now! I'm tired. No wonder I can't get pregnant... lol.

Resa77 · February 2013

What's also interesting is that about half of the pregnancies in this country are unintended. I wonder if that has something to do with parents being less happy.

Calypso1977 · February 2013

What's also interesting is that about half of the pregnancies in this country are unintended. I wonder if that has something to do with parents being lessÂ happy.

perhaps, but of that one-half, how many are terminated? meaning, while one half of pregnancies are unintended, that doesnt mean that one-half of the children in existence were unintended.

Riss91 · February 2013

I honestly wonder how happy someone might be in their 50s and 60s, without any kids if they are dealing with health problems. Just the thought of what it would have been like for my mother to be childless when my father was in critical care for 6 months last year makes me cry. It was hard enough for her with her four children around to support her. My aunts and uncles obviously helped, too. But, they have their own families and schedules. I know there is a lot of freedom to travel, volunteer, take on projects - but what if you aren't physically able to do much? It was really sad to see some older people in the hospital when my father was there - no visitors for days on end. That can't be very happy for them...

I guess when kids are younger, it might decrease some of the happiness due to the reduction in "me time", but once they are grown and independent, kids shouldn't be much of a detraction to your happiness.

Calypso1977 · February 2013

Riss, ive talked to someone who was an only child too, who said for similar reasons that people should have at least 2 kids as it was a significant burden for him to take care of both of his parents on his own as they aged and passed away.

Riss91 · February 2013

My husband is an only child or a single mother. When she died at the age of 54, it was so difficult for him. He had no one who knew what he was going through, and no one to help him with arrangements (besides myself of course, but I am not a sibling equivalent). It also wasn't easy on him when she was alive (she had some physical disabilities) to be her lone caretaker. He always advocates against the only-child thing.

banana468 · February 2013

I'm somewhat skeptical about the 50% statistic. I know of many people who could put their wanted pregnancies into the category simply because they weren't doing anything to prevent the conception. My personal interpretation is that just because you aren't avoiding does not mean that you aren't open to the pregnancy. Before I became pregnant with DD, DH and I went through a few month span when we weren't TTA or TTC. We just let things happen when we wanted them to without any major plan. Then we actively noted the times that it would be best to conceive and now here we are with a 26 mo.

That said, I'm SO nervous about having another child even though we are going to TTC soon. We know God will not give us what we cannot handle however we need both incomes and live in a state surrounded by family but also with very high taxes. We're very lucky that we have parents and aunts and uncles who help us and I don't think we would be who we are in our marriage without them.

TeaForMe · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_overpopulation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:1c879f45-9470-4c65-871b-cc624024022aPost:787067e3-a69e-423f-8f07-bd940e649a82">Re: "Overpopulation?"</a>:
[QUOTE]My husband is an only child or a single mother. When she died at the age of 54, it was so difficult for him. He had no one who knew what he was going through, and no one to help him with arrangements (besides myself of course, but I am not a sibling equivalent). It also wasn't easy on him when she was alive (she had some physical disabilities) to be her lone caretaker. He always advocates against the only-child thing.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

This is one if the reasons we are hoping to have at least a few kids. It has been tough to see my dad (an only child) and mom (one much younger, out of town sibling) deal with aging and dying parents. They have had to do everything on their own. I just wonder how much easier it might be with siblings to share the responsibility and as support.

Calypso1977 · February 2013

It has been tough to see my dad (an only child) and mom (one much younger, out of town sibling) deal with aging and dying parents.

i hear ya. my sister is 8 years older and lives 3000 miles away - i am pretty much the one who looks after my mom (although she's very healthy now, and independent at 67) and i know that when the time comes ill be pretty much responsible for all care and funeral and estate stuff.

bibliophile2010 · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_overpopulation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1c879f45-9470-4c65-871b-cc624024022aPost:c3b27b4b-0606-48e8-9dc9-5457443e9a94">Re: "Overpopulation?"</a>:
[QUOTE]It has been tough to see my dad (an only child) and mom (one much younger, out of town sibling) deal with aging and dying parents. i hear ya. my sister is 8 years older and lives 3000 miles away - i am pretty much the one who looks after my mom (although she's very healthy now, and independent at 67) and i know that when the time comes ill be pretty much responsible for all care and funeral and estate stuff.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

And, too often, the dying process is far, far worse. We expect to bear the burden for H's parents. I simply accept it as a cross to bear along when the time comes.

Honestly, I can't imagine not having my sister. We didn't get along growing up, but now we're the best of friends. No one else on Earth "gets" exactly what we've gone through over the years. Then, my H and his brother have always been best friends.

There are so many reasons that only children are decidedly <em>off</em> our radar.

But the thing is, as Catriona mentioned, <em>nothing</em>, not kids or siblings or money or time or freedom can actually make us happy. That comes from God. Meanwhile, we are called, not to happiness, but to holiness. Having a family, if nothing else, is known for its ability to sanctify.

Tami87 · February 2013

About the whole only-child thing, while I agree that ideally I would like to have several children it doesn't always work out like you planned. Yes there are many people now who chose to have only one child, but it is worth remembering that are also people who would have welcomed having more children but it didnt' work out that way. As an only child myself I know how hurtful it can be when people assume my mom only had one kid for selfish reasons, when in reality they longed for more. My Aunt (and Godmother) also struggled with infertility and wasn't able to have any children. Yes there is always adoption, but it isn't always that simple.

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to being an only child like everything else. I sometimes feel like I missed out on the whole sibling experience and I don't look forward to having to be the sole care provider for my parents as they age, but growing up I also got lots of attention from my parents and opportunities I may not have had if I had siblings.

Also caring for aging parents and loved ones can be very difficult even when there are many siblings. I know it has been difficult with my grandparents, while my mom has 5 of her siblings still living there is a lot of bitterness and resentment when some siblings feel like the are providing more than others.

bibliophile2010 · February 2013

Tami, you make excellent points. I am sorry if anything I said was hurtful (you didn't indicate that it had, necessarily, but I am truly apologetic anyway).

My parents struggled mightily with fertility issues as well, so I know what you mean when you talk about that. Our nephew is an only child, and my BIL often talks about how he regrets that. Things are rarely as straightforward as they seem to us all-knowing outsiders.

Additionally, aging/sick parents are difficult under any circumstances. I've seen it from many angles and know that there's never an easy/better/perfect way to experience it.

Tami87 · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_overpopulation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1c879f45-9470-4c65-871b-cc624024022aPost:14090860-1f80-4778-a838-fa949913c42d">Re: "Overpopulation?"</a>:
[QUOTE]Tami, you make excellent points. I am sorry if anything I said was hurtful (you didn't indicate that it had, necessarily, but I am truly apologetic anyway). My parents struggled mightily with fertility issues as well, so I know what you mean when you talk about that. Our nephew is an only child, and my BIL often talks about how he regrets that. Things are rarely as straightforward as they seem to us all-knowing outsiders. Additionally, aging/sick parents are difficult under any circumstances. I've seen it from many angles and know that there's never an easy/better/perfect way to experience it.
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this. I wasn't hurt by anything anyone said on this board I just felt the need to say something.

TeaForMe · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_overpopulation?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:1c879f45-9470-4c65-871b-cc624024022aPost:7e1d9e3a-b4ea-480e-9514-f62399e841cb">Re: "Overpopulation?"</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: "Overpopulation?" : Thanks for this. I wasn't hurt by anything anyone said on this board I just felt the need to say something.
Posted by Tami87[/QUOTE]

Tami, it's true what you say... My parents weren't only/semi-only children by my grandparents' choice. They had all hoped for much larger families.

caitriona87 · February 2013

Definitely true Tami...though I feel the same as some othes about never choosing to have only one child I know it's not always the ideal. My sister narrowly missed being an only child--she was 17 when I was born, but my parents thought they'd have 4 or 5 kids.

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