pseudo legal question

jenajjthr · July 2014

So I got to listen to bio dad trash my mom and step-dad at step-son's party on sunday. He talked about how he lost legal rights to me when mom divorced him shortly after my birth 40 years ago. How that was step-dad's fault is beyond me since they have only been married 28 years. I'm slowly building a relationship with him, why he was there in the first place. Now I question why I am doing this in the first place.

Legal part. He says that after he was served the divorce papers and he signed them, an addendum as added taking away his legal rights so my mom's next husband (not step-dad) could adopt me. He didn't find this part out until the final papers were delivered to him and it was too late for him to do anything because the divorce was now finalized. I don't question him, or debate him, it's just not worth it. I also don't believe him either.

Question to the lawyers and lawyers to be, if you want to answer. Can you add an addendum onto a divorce decree, not have it signed by the other party noting the change, and then have it finalized by the judge? Because I don't think that is legal and I think he is making crap up to cover his ass. Granted this happened 40 years ago, and laws could be different then, but still.

This is just for my piece of mind. I won't be confronting him or anything. I just like knowing as much truth as possible. I also know that talking to him or my mom gives me very biased and different stories and nowhere near the truth. I figured lawyers would let me know what parts to know are probable or completely made up.

AprilH81 · July 2014

I'm not even close to being a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that the termination of parenting rights (especially voluntary) needs a signature.

VulgarGirl · July 2014

Remember, I'm not a lawyer, I just fuck one. But I can tell you, giving up parental rights requires a signature and a second parent adoption (which is what happens when parent is already the legal/biolgoical parent) is not just a matter of signing some forms. It's pretty much the same as a regular adoption (home visits, background check, ect). So I seriously doubt there was anything in the divorce paperwork that said "John is no longer jenajjthr's father, her mom's future husband will be".

jenajjthr · July 2014

The story I get from both of how easy it was 40 years ago. Divorce stated that bio dad gave up paternal rights. Then legal dad adopted me. But that is all I get. Bio dad states he got screwed and didn't know. Legal dad got the addendum added in after the fact. Mom states he knew. I go with he didn't read the paperwork. How the actual adoption process went. I don't know, don't really care.

I just know that the more I listen to bio dad the more I know where I get some of my weird quirks, great.../sarcasm/. But the more know, the more I wish I didn't invite him back into my life.

ETA - forgot words to make a sentence make sense. mornings suck, and yes, 11:54 am still counts as morning.

ashley8918 · July 2014

MagicInk said:

Remember, I'm not a lawyer, I just fuck one. But I can tell you, giving up parental rights requires a signature and a second parent adoption (which is what happens when parent is already the legal/biolgoical parent) is not just a matter of signing some forms. It's pretty much the same as a regular adoption (home visits, background check, ect). So I seriously doubt there was anything in the divorce paperwork that said "John is no longer jenajjthr's father, her mom's future husband will be".

I am so insanely jealous that I can't use this phrase. "I'm not a mechanic, I just fuck one" isn't as much fun.

OP, I am also not a lawyer, but going through custody issues of my own with my kids' bio-dad, I know that you absolutely cannot terminate parental rights this way. There has to be someone available to adopt the child and the parent whose rights are being terminated either has to a) agrre/sign off, b) do something horrendous enough to be deemed unfit, or c) abandon the child for x number of years. (At least, in my state)

jenajjthr · July 2014

MagicInk said:

Remember, I'm not a lawyer, I just fuck one. But I can tell you, giving up parental rights requires a signature and a second parent adoption (which is what happens when parent is already the legal/biolgoical parent) is not just a matter of signing some forms. It's pretty much the same as a regular adoption (home visits, background check, ect). So I seriously doubt there was anything in the divorce paperwork that said "John is no longer jenajjthr's father, her mom's future husband will be".

That made me laugh. Love it! Also, you are a tattoo artist, how do I pm you to ask you a professional question?

VulgarGirl · July 2014

ashley8918 said:

MagicInk said:

Remember, I'm not a lawyer, I just fuck one. But I can tell you, giving up parental rights requires a signature and a second parent adoption (which is what happens when parent is already the legal/biolgoical parent) is not just a matter of signing some forms. It's pretty much the same as a regular adoption (home visits, background check, ect). So I seriously doubt there was anything in the divorce paperwork that said "John is no longer jenajjthr's father, her mom's future husband will be".

I am so insanely jealous that I can't use this phrase. "I'm not a mechanic, I just fuck one" isn't as much fun.

I dunno...could be useful if you give someone car advice!

ashley8918 · July 2014

MagicInk said:

ashley8918 said:

MagicInk said:

Remember, I'm not a lawyer, I just fuck one. But I can tell you, giving up parental rights requires a signature and a second parent adoption (which is what happens when parent is already the legal/biolgoical parent) is not just a matter of signing some forms. It's pretty much the same as a regular adoption (home visits, background check, ect). So I seriously doubt there was anything in the divorce paperwork that said "John is no longer jenajjthr's father, her mom's future husband will be".

I am so insanely jealous that I can't use this phrase. "I'm not a mechanic, I just fuck one" isn't as much fun.

I dunno...could be useful if you give someone car advice!

Good point. I should really learn somethign about cars so that I can make this happen.

mysticl · July 2014

I used to work in foster care and termination of parental rights could happen two ways. The parent could voluntarily sign the papers or the court could order the rights terminated. The first is much easier for obvious reasons. Also, a parent can terminate their rights at any time they wish. The father of one of my clients terminated his rights long before she was placed in foster care.

It's possible that your mother asked for the termination so that a future spouse could adopt you or just because she didn't want your dad to be able to see you. It would also terminate his responsibilities so he would not be obligated to pay support. I do find it difficult to believe that it was just slipped into the divorce decree. If it was he had a really crappy lawyer.

jenajjthr · July 2014

mysticl said:

I used to work in foster care and termination of parental rights could happen two ways. The parent could voluntarily sign the papers or the court could order the rights terminated. The first is much easier for obvious reasons. Also, a parent can terminate their rights at any time they wish. The father of one of my clients terminated his rights long before she was placed in foster care.

It's possible that your mother asked for the termination so that a future spouse could adopt you or just because she didn't want your dad to be able to see you. It would also terminate his responsibilities so he would not be obligated to pay support. I do find it difficult to believe that it was just slipped into the divorce decree. If it was he had a really crappy lawyer.

He was military at the time, don't know if he had a lawyer, again didn't ask. I find it best not to question him too much. My mom wanted her future husband to adopt me because she was convinced he would be the better dad. I was about 4 months? old in their wedding pictures. I always made the joke growing up that I made soap opera families look sane and normal compared to mine. You couldn't make this crap up.

You know how they say you marry your dad...well I did except I didn't know it. My bio dad is a freaking narcissist. It's all about him, how he has been wronged, how everybody owes him, how he knows everything. I didn't know him for the first 17 years of my life, and yet at the age of 18 married my first H who turned out exactly like him. Could have been worse, could have married a person like my legal dad, who was 1000x the monster.

lyndausvi · July 2014

jenajjthr said:

The story I get from both of how easy it was 40 years ago. Divorce stated that bio dad gave up paternal rights. Then legal dad adopted me. But that is all I get. Bio dad states he got screwed and didn't know. Legal dad got the addendum added in after the fact. Mom states he knew. I go with he didn't read the paperwork. How the actual adoption process went. I don't know, don't really care.

I just know that the more I listen to bio dad the more I know where I get some of my weird quirks, great.../sarcasm/. But the more know, the more I wish I didn't invite him back into my life.

ETA - forgot words to make a sentence make sense. mornings suck, and yes, 11:54 am still counts as morning.

I can believe that. Rights of fathers have come a long way.

Your bio dad might have had a really crappy lawyer. That said, it was not completely unusual for moms to take the kid and dads go by the way side back then. Not that it was right or all dads felt that way, but there is definitely a shift on dad's roles and rights in the last 40 years.

Angusaur · July 2014

I'm not a hvac mechanic, I just fuck one. But yeah... you should probably get air conditioning. Just sayin.

Angusaur · July 2014

OP, I don't think he's being 100% truthful. I don't think he necessarily just was like oh, here you go, I'll just give you my daughter. I do think he probably didn't read and was mad when he realized he signed his rights away.

OliveOilsMom · July 2014

If what bio dad is saying is correct, he could have sued your mom for fraud and also fought back for custody. The lawyer she had who would have placed the termination of rights into the divorce, after the fact, would be sanctioned. A lot of bad things could have happened if what your bio dad says is true. Why not try saying something about this when he starts up again. "Bio-dad, all of that is in the past and we are building a relationship now. So please don't keep bringing up the past." It doesn't say you don't believe him, it just says that you'd rather not talk about it now. I also have a feeling that TK will eat the paragraphs I put into this response.

loveislouder · July 2014

Calling @JCbride2015. Expertise?

jenajjthr · July 2014

OliveOilsMom said:

If what bio dad is saying is correct, he could have sued your mom for fraud and also fought back for custody. The lawyer she had who would have placed the termination of rights into the divorce, after the fact, would be sanctioned. A lot of bad things could have happened if what your bio dad says is true. Why not try saying something about this when he starts up again. "Bio-dad, all of that is in the past and we are building a relationship now. So please don't keep bringing up the past." It doesn't say you don't believe him, it just says that you'd rather not talk about it now. I also have a feeling that TK will eat the paragraphs I put into this response.

SITB

I hate being stuck in the box, there is no rhyme or reason on when it does this to me. I must memorize this line. I think what got me started on this was his talk on his new relationship with potential FI and how he is the one working so hard on making it work, its all him, yada yada yada. I about got up and walked away. That was me as a teenager, early 20 something trying to make it work with him. It wasn't until one of my sons at the tender age of 8 said, why doesn't Grandpa X love us and want to be with us that I cut him out of my life for very long time. You will not do to them, what you did to me. (I found out at 8 about bio-dad, legal dad hoopla, met him at 9. He walked out of my life again at 11. Looked him up at 16.) Then my sister died and I made the mistake of letting him back in. I know to keep him at arm's length.

But for some strange reason, want this one legal question put to rest. I'm strange that way.

mysticl · July 2014

jenajjthr said:

OliveOilsMom said:

If what bio dad is saying is correct, he could have sued your mom for fraud and also fought back for custody. The lawyer she had who would have placed the termination of rights into the divorce, after the fact, would be sanctioned. A lot of bad things could have happened if what your bio dad says is true. Why not try saying something about this when he starts up again. "Bio-dad, all of that is in the past and we are building a relationship now. So please don't keep bringing up the past." It doesn't say you don't believe him, it just says that you'd rather not talk about it now. I also have a feeling that TK will eat the paragraphs I put into this response.

SITB

I hate being stuck in the box, there is no rhyme or reason on when it does this to me. I must memorize this line. I think what got me started on this was his talk on his new relationship with potential FI and how he is the one working so hard on making it work, its all him, yada yada yada. I about got up and walked away. That was me as a teenager, early 20 something trying to make it work with him. It wasn't until one of my sons at the tender age of 8 said, why doesn't Grandpa X love us and want to be with us that I cut him out of my life for very long time. You will not do to them, what you did to me. (I found out at 8 about bio-dad, legal dad hoopla, met him at 9. He walked out of my life again at 11. Looked him up at 16.) Then my sister died and I made the mistake of letting him back in. I know to keep him at arm's length.

But for some strange reason, want this one legal question put to rest. I'm strange that way.

With all this history you've just shared it does make me wonder if he's lying. He goes ahead and signs his rights (and responsibilities) to you. Then he regrets it, has a change of heart whatever, shows back up. Then parenting is more than he bargained for and gone again…..so forth and so on. But now he's worried about how you view him so he comes up with this story that it's all your mom's fault and he's the innocent bystander.

I'm wondering if you could get a copy of the actual order from the clerk's office at the courthouse where it was filed.

MyNameIsNot · July 2014

You can terminate parental rights as part of a divorce decree in most states. (I have no idea if that was true 40 years ago). Some states have public policy to avoid leaving a child without two legally responsible parents, so these sometimes aren't granted unless there is a substitute parent waiting to step in and adopt. That's kind of outdated now, but it may very well have been the general rule back then. A divorce settlement agreement is usually 30+ pages long. You usually initial each page and sign the last. If he signed it without benefit of an attorney, he may have signed away his parental rights without understanding what it meant. Particularly, since terminating parental rights terminates the obligation to pay child support, he may have just agreed to it. It's pretty unlikely that something as important as terminating parental rights could have been slipped in as an unsigned addendum. That said, if he'd cared about having a relationship with you, he wouldn't have signed something that gave him 0 custody or visitation, even 40 years ago when mothers were default custodians. My guess is that he agreed to it in favor of not having to pay child support and now wants to blame someone else so that he doesn't have to tell you that. Are you sure that his parental rights were terminated? Is it possible that he's just using the term loosely when he really means that he just agreed to no visitation? ETA: Sorry for the lack of paragraphs. TK hates me.

jenajjthr · July 2014

@MyNameIsNot Parental rights were signed away. I have two birth certificates. One with original name. One with new name. And then when mom divorced legal dad he paid child support for both me and half-sister, his bio-daughter.

He also has his excuses why he wasn't in my life before the age of 9 and after 11, both are my mom's fault of course. Don't get me wrong, my mom made mistakes, but she isn't the devil he makes her out to be either.

I'm just at the point where I'm polite, hold my tongue when he tries to act like he's this DADDY in my life. Kind of put him in his place on Sunday, that went over like a lead balloon but I was so done with it all.

@mysitcl I actually googled North Carolina public records to find out. I think I can get a copy of the certificate, but not the actual document. It would be really cool to read it though and throw it in his face.

mysticl · July 2014

jenajjthr said:

@MyNameIsNot Parental rights were signed away. I have two birth certificates. One with original name. One with new name. And then when mom divorced legal dad he paid child support for both me and half-sister, his bio-daughter.

He also has his excuses why he wasn't in my life before the age of 9 and after 11, both are my mom's fault of course. Don't get me wrong, my mom made mistakes, but she isn't the devil he makes her out to be either.

I'm just at the point where I'm polite, hold my tongue when he tries to act like he's this DADDY in my life. Kind of put him in his place on Sunday, that went over like a lead balloon but I was so done with it all.

@mysitcl I actually googled North Carolina public records to find out. I think I can get a copy of the certificate, but not the actual document. It would be really cool to read it though and throw it in his face.

Your mom should have a copy somewhere. I know asking to see that could open a whole can of worms but if she's smart she didn't throw it away. My husband's first wife died a few years after the divorce and he still has a copy of the decree and settlement just in case he needs to prove they did indeed divorce.

jenajjthr · July 2014

Knowing my mom, and honestly me, she put it in a "safe" place. And by safe place that means a black hole of nowhere, never to be seen again. After she divorced my bio-dad, she married legal-dad. Divorced him when I was 8 or 9. Remarried bio-dad because I needed to know him, and because my sister and I should have a dad in our life. Like I said she made her fair share of mistakes. Year and a half later divorced him again. Right before I turned 12 she married my step-dad. She has been married to him since....he is the absolute best. So 3 sets of divorce papers, who knows where she has kept them. At some point I may ask if she has the first set, but only if bio-dad really, really ticks me off. Not quite there yet.

mysticl · July 2014

jenajjthr said:

Knowing my mom, and honestly me, she put it in a "safe" place. And by safe place that means a black hole of nowhere, never to be seen again. After she divorced my bio-dad, she married legal-dad. Divorced him when I was 8 or 9. Remarried bio-dad because I needed to know him, and because my sister and I should have a dad in our life. Like I said she made her fair share of mistakes. Year and a half later divorced him again. Right before I turned 12 she married my step-dad. She has been married to him since....he is the absolute best. So 3 sets of divorce papers, who knows where she has kept them. At some point I may ask if she has the first set, but only if bio-dad really, really ticks me off. Not quite there yet.

I see what you mean by the soap opera comment. Though it's not the craziest story I've ever heard. You could also ask him to prove it, he may still have the paperwork too. I take it his rights weren't reinstated with the second marriage.

jenajjthr · July 2014

No, the marriage didn't last 2 years. That was when he disappeared again. Mom said his choice, she thinks he was drinking and doing drugs. He says she made me leave, wouldn't let me have contact, lies about the drugs. I know there was at least alcohol, remember thinking I loved Wednesdays because that was the day he went to the bar after work with his friends and didn't come home.

No contact again until I tried when I turned 16. My mom may not have liked it, but she supported my choices. So this is why I tend to believe her over him.

MyNameIsNot · July 2014

Have you called the clerk of court, or just looked online? The pleadings are usually public record and can be copied, although I"m sure 40 year old files are archived by now.

jenajjthr · July 2014

Just looked online. Since I live in MO and the records are in NC I can't just walk in and order. I would have to order online. I'm leery to spend money right now, and I'm not pissed off enough. Lol.

Thanks all for the words of wisdom. Today of all days is his birthday and I'm debating on sending a birthday text or not. The better person in me says do it, the not so nice person says screw it.

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