Lawyer/Law School Knotties!

themosthappy91 · June 2015

So what's more important- your GPA or LSAT scores? And by how much?

SIL wants to go to law school- has pretty good grades but is a horrible test taker. I'm skeptical about her chances but don't know that much, so I thought I'd ask on here.

[Deleted User] · June 2015

I've heard LSAT typically trumps GPA from my lawyer friends.

ETF: DAMN AUTO CORRECT

JCbride2015 · June 2015

LSAT all the way.

Good GPA is the baseline. Most people have good GPAs applying to law school. LSAT is what differentiates you.

I'll also say unless she gets into a great school, law school isn't the great investment it used to be. But that's kind of a whole other issue.

ETA: If your SIL is the kind of person who enjoys numbers, she can plug in her GPA here and then play around with potential LSAT scores to figure out what her chances of admission are at each school she's interested in.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/UGPALSAT/UGPALSAT.aspx

redheadbride15 · June 2015

JCbride2015 said:

LSAT all the way.

Good GPA is the baseline. Most people have good GPAs applying to law school. LSAT is what differentiates you.

I'll also say unless she gets into a great school, law school isn't the great investment it used to be. But that's kind of a whole other issue.

ETA: If your SIL is the kind of person who enjoys numbers, she can plug in her GPA here and then play around with potential LSAT scores to figure out what her chances of admission are at each school she's interested in.
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/UGPALSAT/UGPALSAT.aspx

I do get the sense that the bolded is true... I can think of 4 friends from college who went to law school and only one has been able to find a law job that she liked. The rest are underemployed and griping about student loan debt. And they are all extremely intelligent, accomplished, and charismatic people. I'd make the same point about the people I know who got science PhDs, but at least most of them don't have the debt.

ShesSoCold · June 2015

Y'all better not be in any weddings any time soon.

AuroraRose41 · June 2015

JCbride2015 said:

LSAT all the way.

Good GPA is the baseline. Most people have good GPAs applying to law school. LSAT is what differentiates you.

I'll also say unless she gets into a great school, law school isn't the great investment it used to be. But that's kind of a whole other issue.

ETA: If your SIL is the kind of person who enjoys numbers, she can plug in her GPA here and then play around with potential LSAT scores to figure out what her chances of admission are at each school she's interested in.
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/UGPALSAT/UGPALSAT.aspx

All of this. Having a good GPA is important, but you won't get into a good school on that alone. The LSAT score is much more important and can even help you if you score high on it but have a lower GPA.

I personally like law school numbers for seeing my chances at getting into the schools I am applying for. You can search by school name, ranking, or state, and view the graphs on each school's page to see how applicants with a specific GPA and LSAT score did. You can also view scholarship money that was offered to them. It is all self reported though, so it may be somewhat skewed, but I think it also gives a good metric.

Also, if she is serious about this, make sure that she doesn't buy anything from Kaplan or the Princeton Review for studying. They aren't licensed by the LSAC to use actual LSAT questions. I personally have found the LSAT Trainer and the LSAT Bibles by Powerscore to be extremely useful, and they are licensed to use real LSAT questions. You can also purchase books of previous actual LSAT tests for drilling and time practice.

JCbride2015 · June 2015

AuroraRose41 said:

JCbride2015 said:

LSAT all the way.

Good GPA is the baseline. Most people have good GPAs applying to law school. LSAT is what differentiates you.

I'll also say unless she gets into a great school, law school isn't the great investment it used to be. But that's kind of a whole other issue.

ETA: If your SIL is the kind of person who enjoys numbers, she can plug in her GPA here and then play around with potential LSAT scores to figure out what her chances of admission are at each school she's interested in.
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/UGPALSAT/UGPALSAT.aspx

All of this. Having a good GPA is important, but you won't get into a good school on that alone. The LSAT score is much more important and can even help you if you score high on it but have a lower GPA.

I personally like law school numbers for seeing my chances at getting into the schools I am applying for. You can search by school name, ranking, or state, and view the graphs on each school's page to see how applicants with a specific GPA and LSAT score did. You can also view scholarship money that was offered to them. It is all self reported though, so it may be somewhat skewed, but I think it also gives a good metric.

Also, if she is serious about this, make sure that she doesn't buy anything from Kaplan or the Princeton Review for studying. They aren't licensed by the LSAC to use actual LSAT questions. I personally have found the LSAT Trainer and the LSAT Bibles by Powerscore to be extremely useful, and they are licensed to use real LSAT questions. You can also purchase books of previous actual LSAT tests for drilling and time practice.

What? Huh? I was a Kaplan LSAT teacher for years and everything comes straight out of the test. Every question has a citation to the actual administration of the LSAT in which the question was used.

You don't need a "license" to buy LSAT questions. They are all publicly available to anybody who wants to pay for them. You can buy all the previous tests directly from LSAC, no need to pay PowerScore's markup.

ETA: I should add that I highly recommend a test prep course. My only experience is with Kaplan and I think they're great, but probably any reputable class would be good to give her some structure and guidance on studying. It's a lot of material to tackle.

themosthappy91 · June 2015

@JCBride2015 that is a super helpful site, thanks for sharing!

And based on plugging in SIL's GPA (which I know) and my guess of what she'll get on the test, my suspicions were confirmed and she is not getting in anywhere decent in our state at least.

Here's the thing... the last major standardized test she took was the SAT. She did SO MUCH to prepare for that, like group test-prep classes, one-on-one tutoring, independent study with official test-prep books... and she still got like an 1100/1600, which is not very good. So I feel like it's going to be the same situation with this and just a waste of time and money for everyone involved. And she refuses to take a practice test to get a baseline of where she's at now, which I think is dumb but obviously I understand why she is avoiding it... because on some level she probably knows that that will force her to confront the fact that she couldn't possibly raise her scores enough even through intense study to get in where she wants to go.

ETA: So what would you do if you were her parents? I know both of them are struggling right now with whether or not they should express that this might not be the most practical career choice for her or just let it play out...

JCbride2015 · June 2015

themosthappy91 said:

@JCBride2015 that is a super helpful site, thanks for sharing!

And based on plugging in SIL's GPA (which I know) and my guess of what she'll get on the test, my suspicions were confirmed and she is not getting in anywhere decent in our state at least.

Here's the thing... the last major standardized test she took was the SAT. She did SO MUCH to prepare for that, like group test-prep classes, one-on-one tutoring, independent study with official test-prep books... and she still got like an 1100/1600, which is not very good. So I feel like it's going to be the same situation with this and just a waste of time and money for everyone involved. And she refuses to take a practice test to get a baseline of where she's at now, which I think is dumb but obviously I understand why she is avoiding it... because on some level she probably knows that that will force her to confront the fact that she couldn't possibly raise her scores enough even through intense study to get in where she wants to go.

ETA: So what would you do if you were her parents? I know both of them are struggling right now with whether or not they should express that this might not be the most practical career choice for her or just let it play out...

I would show her the UGPA/LSAT site and discuss what target score she would need to get in order to have a shot at whatever school would make sense for her (and frankly, this should probably be one of the top 30-50 in the country AT LEAST, unless she has some kind of other serious qualifications you haven't mentioned here, like a previous career in intellectual property or something). Then prod her on whether that's realistic. And if it's not realistic, I'd tell her it's probably not a great idea. But I'm very direct about stuff like that.

STARMOON44 · June 2015

She's an adult. I would do nothing about this. So what if she studies really hard and fails? I'd let her do that and not worry about it.

themosthappy91 · June 2015

STARMOON44 said:

She's an adult. I would do nothing about this. So what if she studies really hard and fails? I'd let her do that and not worry about it.

I have a feeling that that's what my in-laws will end up doing, though personally I'm in the camp of JCbride where if it were my kid I'd probably say something... ugh, I just think of all the money spent on putting her through those test-prep classes and such. Those things ain't cheap.

STARMOON44 · June 2015

themosthappy91 said:

STARMOON44 said:

She's an adult. I would do nothing about this. So what if she studies really hard and fails? I'd let her do that and not worry about it.

I have a feeling that that's what my in-laws will end up doing, though personally I'm in the camp of JCbride where if it were my kid I'd probably say something... ugh, I just think of all the money spent on putting her through those test-prep classes and such. Those things ain't cheap.

Well I also wouldn't be spending money on putting her through test prep either.

huskypuppy14 · June 2015

This is not your problem. And 1100 on the SAT (out of 1600) is not terrible. It's pretty average, if I recall (I took it 15-16 years ago). You sound super judgmental. How old is this SIL?

AuroraRose41 · June 2015

@JCBride2015 I have heard that the Kaplan courses are good and do use the actual questions, but that books that you buy on your own outside of the course do not. I also tried working through a Kaplan book purchased outside of a course and it was horrible compared to the others that I referenced. It taught completely wrong concepts for logical reasoning. The book I had did not reference any actual LSAT questions; all of the questions were made up. The powerscore ones and the trainer do reference actual LSAT questions. And I meant that you can purchase the tests from LSAC; not Powerscore. I have found the Powerscore training materials to be helpful in addition to the actual tests purchased from LSAC. Sorry if that wasn't clear earlier.

You are right about them being publicly available, but those companies do not purchase them to use in their books from my experience and from others who I am currently in studying groups with.

themosthappy91 · June 2015

huskypuppy14 said:

This is not your problem. And 1100 on the SAT (out of 1600) is not terrible. It's pretty average, if I recall (I took it 15-16 years ago). You sound super judgmental. How old is this SIL?

I guess maybe a better way to phrase it would be, I think most people would expect someone with her high school GPA (like a 3.7-ish?) to score significantly higher than that. At least in the group of people I knew taking the kinds of classes she was taking in high school (lots of APs etc.), an 1100 was not considered a great score. Sorry if that's judgmental- that's my experience though.

The point is she has bad testing anxiety and I'm just don't think any amount of trying to study is realistically going to get her where she would need to be to get into the schools she wants to go to based on that fact alone. I totally agree it's not my problem- just making conversation.

Lulawife · June 2015

I'm another vote for the LSAT. I was an average student in college with slightly better than average LSAT scores and I managed to get in to my first choice school. There were definitely other factors that played in to my acceptance though and so I don't think the fact that she is an anxious test taker should determine whether or not she wants to go to law school. It may be something she excels at.

I do agree with @JCbride2015 though, law school is not the investment it used to be. Unemployed and underemployed attorneys are common in my area.

[Deleted User] · June 2015

redheadbride15 said:

JCbride2015 said:

LSAT all the way.

Good GPA is the baseline. Most people have good GPAs applying to law school. LSAT is what differentiates you.

I'll also say unless she gets into a great school, law school isn't the great investment it used to be. But that's kind of a whole other issue.

ETA: If your SIL is the kind of person who enjoys numbers, she can plug in her GPA here and then play around with potential LSAT scores to figure out what her chances of admission are at each school she's interested in.
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/UGPALSAT/UGPALSAT.aspx

I do get the sense that the bolded is true... I can think of 4 friends from college who went to law school and only one has been able to find a law job that she liked. The rest are underemployed and griping about student loan debt. And they are all extremely intelligent, accomplished, and charismatic people. I'd make the same point about the people I know who got science PhDs, but at least most of them don't have the debt.

*******PRETEND THERE'S A BOX HERE******
To the bolded- yes, this has been a news topic since about 2012 / 2013 at least.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/oh_wait_is_law_school_actually.php

Sadly, I think a lot of careers / professions are going this way. My fiance has a BS in teaching; couldn't get anything other than subbing jobs for 5 years. He went back to school to get an AS in Pharmacy Tech Studies to be a pharmacy tech. In addition to the degree he also has to have a state license AND a professional certification in order to get a job where he makes $11 an hour- and that's AFTER a recent raise...

Corporate America is raping us...

redheadbride15 · June 2015

I found this graph a while back that is pretty interesting, when considering return on investment for a professional degree:

The bottom line is that the worst debt:salary ratios for all professional school graduates are veterinary, optometry, and pharmacy schools (in that order). Law school and dental school have both shown a worsening trend in recent years. Business school is the best, and medicine is still a pretty safe bet, but it depends entirely on specialty - family practice does much worse than orthopedics, for example.

Of course you also have to do what you enjoy. In my case, I can't imagine a more miserable match for my personality than business, so that was never even on the table.

melbenso · June 2015

They are both important to varying degrees depending on the schools you are apply to. Other things matter too - community involvement, job history, etc.

As for taking the LSAT - most people find it tricky because its not like the SAT. There is a reading comprehension section that is very similar to the SAT, but the other two sections are on logic and reasoning, which most people have never taken standardized tests on. I suggest buying an LSAT prep book and taking a bunch of the practice tests to train to test on those sections. That's what I did and I scored really high (top 5%). And honestly, my personal opinion is that most of those Kaplan classes are a rip off.

RosieC18 · June 2015

They both matter but the LSAT is more important. A great GPA is not going to get you into a top school with a middling LSAT but a bad GPA could keep you out even with a good score. Between the two, GPA and LSAT are 90% of the admission decision. They don't care if you went to Harvard or Eastern Southern Whatever State. They don't care that your 3.4 represents the top 10% of your class for your degree in orgnaic chemistry. They want the person with the 4.0 in basket weaving. They don't care that you were in the peace corps or have 10 years of relevant work experience. Why? The LSAT and GPA drive US News rankings, and US News rankings drive everything else.

The LSAT is different than the SAT, and you take it as a much different person, so I don't think it's a great predictor of scores. If she hasn't yet, I highly recommend your SIL take a proctored practice exam. Kaplan and others offer them pretty regularly for free.

This might sound snobbish but I don't think law school is worth it unless you go to a top 14 school (exceptions if you know for sure you want to practice in a very specific small/medium market and/or get a full ride to a school just outside the T14). It's definitely not worth it if there isn't a specific law job you want after graduation. You need to know you want to be a lawyer, and what that will really entail.

There are more lawyers than lawyer jobs, and most hiring organizations (especially the big law firms that pay enough for you to repay your loans) care wayy too much about where you went to school. Most do almost all of their hiring through on campus recruiting and they only go to the very top schools. The USNWR has consistently ranked 14 schools as the "elite" and it carries a ton of weight to be in that club. It may not be right, but it's true. Things are slightly better at non profits and government jobs, but it still matters and you get much better opportunities to build a public interest resume and get good mentors at the top schools than most regional schools.

That being said, it is COMPLETELY worth it to pay for the very best test prep you can get. I did Kaplan and they were great for me. Do whatever it takes to find the $2-3000 to cover the class. This is pretty much the only time I would ever consider financing something by credit card if you have no other choice and you realistically think you can score high enough to get at least in the upper 160s with their help. If you're already getting in the 160s do it anyway - it may pay for your tuition. It's going to pay you back thousands of times over. I credit Kaplan with my full ride to a top-ten school, which landed me my dream job.

As for parents talking her out of it - probably a bad idea. However! Have her check out the forums at top-law-schools.com. They can be intimidating but there is a lot of data there about where people get in, and what they're able to do afterwards (and with how much debt). It's not a pretty picture for most people and it might be a good reality check that isn't you or someone else "denying her dream."

badbnagdway · June 2015

A lot has already been said. The thing about GPA versus LSAT is that there generally are fewer people with really great LSAT scores than really great GPAs. The range of scores is 120-180, but the way your score is assigned is essentially they take your raw score and compare it to everyone else who took the test the same day as you. It's weighted pretty funky, so whereas just over half of test takers will get a 150 or above, only the top 19% will score over 160, and only the top 3.5% will get a 170 or higher. To get into a top law school you generally have to have over a 160 to even be in the running, for the top 14 schools you generally would have to have a 170 or above or some really crazy soft factors. (The caveat being that certain minority candidates may not have to have a top score).

The good news on the LSAT is it is a completely learnable test. It may have changed some from when I took it some 8 years ago, but I think it is substantially similar. I remember being instantly good at reading comprehension and terrible at the logic games section. However, just by practicing with a bunch of Princeton Review books I went from terrible to nearly perfect on games because they are very learnable. My reading comp actually only improved a little, I was naturally very good at it but it was hard to get better because to get better I actually had to learn to read faster, which was harder to do than to learn a technique.

To me the upside of law school admissions is that it is largely subject to the whims of a test that can be mastered with practice.

As for the wisdom of going to law school, it is not a great investment for most people. If you can minimize your debt through scholarships and summer jobs, that will help, but the legal economy is still not what it was when I started law school. The economy tanked while I was in school and a lot of my classmates, despite the fact we were at a top 25 school, had difficulty getting jobs. It was even harder for people who went to law schools not in the top 50. Your initial law job is almost completely dependent on going to a very good law school. There are some exceptions, where there aren't many law schools in a state where you want to practice, or sometimes the state school is very well regarded just in its area, but then you generally have to be at the top of your class, which is hard to do at any law school. I know someone who took out over $140k in law school loans for a barely accredited law school. It has been really hard for her, even though frankly she is probably smarter and harder working than I am. I'm not sure the pedigree should matter as much as it does, but it really really does in the law.

themosthappy91 · June 2015

RosieC18 said:

They both matter but the LSAT is more important. A great GPA is not going to get you into a top school with a middling LSAT but a bad GPA could keep you out even with a good score. Between the two, GPA and LSAT are 90% of the admission decision. They don't care if you went to Harvard or Eastern Southern Whatever State. They don't care that your 3.4 represents the top 10% of your class for your degree in orgnaic chemistry. They want the person with the 4.0 in basket weaving. They don't care that you were in the peace corps or have 10 years of relevant work experience. Why? The LSAT and GPA drive US News rankings, and US News rankings drive everything else. The LSAT is different than the SAT, and you take it as a much different person, so I don't think it's a great predictor of scores. If she hasn't yet, I highly recommend your SIL take a proctored practice exam. Kaplan and others offer them pretty regularly for free. This might sound snobbish but I don't think law school is worth it unless you go to a top 14 school (exceptions if you know for sure you want to practice in a very specific small/medium market and/or get a full ride to a school just outside the T14). It's definitely not worth it if there isn't a specific law job you want after graduation. You need to know you want to be a lawyer, and what that will really entail. There are more lawyers than lawyer jobs, and most hiring organizations (especially the big law firms that pay enough for you to repay your loans) care wayy too much about where you went to school. Most do almost all of their hiring through on campus recruiting and they only go to the very top schools. The USNWR has consistently ranked 14 schools as the "elite" and it carries a ton of weight to be in that club. It may not be right, but it's true. Things are slightly better at non profits and government jobs, but it still matters and you get much better opportunities to build a public interest resume and get good mentors at the top schools than most regional schools. That being said, it is COMPLETELY worth it to pay for the very best test prep you can get. I did Kaplan and they were great for me. Do whatever it takes to find the $2-3000 to cover the class. This is pretty much the only time I would ever consider financing something by credit card if you have no other choice and you realistically think you can score high enough to get at least in the upper 160s with their help. If you're already getting in the 160s do it anyway - it may pay for your tuition. It's going to pay you back thousands of times over. I credit Kaplan with my full ride to a top-ten school, which landed me my dream job. As for parents talking her out of it - probably a bad idea. However! Have her check out the forums at top-law-schools.com. They can be intimidating but there is a lot of data there about where people get in, and what they're able to do afterwards (and with how much debt). It's not a pretty picture for most people and it might be a good reality check that isn't you or someone else "denying her dream."

This is the other reason I think it's kind of crazy for SIL in to be considering this path... she has no particular interest in any type of law/law-related job and does not seem to be able to articulate what she would do with a law degree. She just likes the idea of it. I just feel like all the factors point to this isn't the right path for her.

RosieC18 · June 2015

themosthappy91 said:

RosieC18 said:

They both matter but the LSAT is more important. A great GPA is not going to get you into a top school with a middling LSAT but a bad GPA could keep you out even with a good score. Between the two, GPA and LSAT are 90% of the admission decision. They don't care if you went to Harvard or Eastern Southern Whatever State. They don't care that your 3.4 represents the top 10% of your class for your degree in orgnaic chemistry. They want the person with the 4.0 in basket weaving. They don't care that you were in the peace corps or have 10 years of relevant work experience. Why? The LSAT and GPA drive US News rankings, and US News rankings drive everything else.

The LSAT is different than the SAT, and you take it as a much different person, so I don't think it's a great predictor of scores. If she hasn't yet, I highly recommend your SIL take a proctored practice exam. Kaplan and others offer them pretty regularly for free.

This might sound snobbish but I don't think law school is worth it unless you go to a top 14 school (exceptions if you know for sure you want to practice in a very specific small/medium market and/or get a full ride to a school just outside the T14). It's definitely not worth it if there isn't a specific law job you want after graduation. You need to know you want to be a lawyer, and what that will really entail.

There are more lawyers than lawyer jobs, and most hiring organizations (especially the big law firms that pay enough for you to repay your loans) care wayy too much about where you went to school. Most do almost all of their hiring through on campus recruiting and they only go to the very top schools. The USNWR has consistently ranked 14 schools as the "elite" and it carries a ton of weight to be in that club. It may not be right, but it's true. Things are slightly better at non profits and government jobs, but it still matters and you get much better opportunities to build a public interest resume and get good mentors at the top schools than most regional schools.

That being said, it is COMPLETELY worth it to pay for the very best test prep you can get. I did Kaplan and they were great for me. Do whatever it takes to find the $2-3000 to cover the class. This is pretty much the only time I would ever consider financing something by credit card if you have no other choice and you realistically think you can score high enough to get at least in the upper 160s with their help. If you're already getting in the 160s do it anyway - it may pay for your tuition. It's going to pay you back thousands of times over. I credit Kaplan with my full ride to a top-ten school, which landed me my dream job.

As for parents talking her out of it - probably a bad idea. However! Have her check out the forums at top-law-schools.com. They can be intimidating but there is a lot of data there about where people get in, and what they're able to do afterwards (and with how much debt). It's not a pretty picture for most people and it might be a good reality check that isn't you or someone else "denying her dream."

This is the other reason I think it's kind of crazy for SIL in to be considering this path... she has no particular interest in any type of law/law-related job and does not seem to be able to articulate what she would do with a law degree. She just likes the idea of it. I just feel like all the factors point to this isn't the right path for her.

_____________boxes___________________________

Yeah... She should definitely go in another direction. Good luck to you as a bystander!

littlemushroom · June 2015

themosthappy91 said:

RosieC18 said:

They both matter but the LSAT is more important. A great GPA is not going to get you into a top school with a middling LSAT but a bad GPA could keep you out even with a good score. Between the two, GPA and LSAT are 90% of the admission decision. They don't care if you went to Harvard or Eastern Southern Whatever State. They don't care that your 3.4 represents the top 10% of your class for your degree in orgnaic chemistry. They want the person with the 4.0 in basket weaving. They don't care that you were in the peace corps or have 10 years of relevant work experience. Why? The LSAT and GPA drive US News rankings, and US News rankings drive everything else.

The LSAT is different than the SAT, and you take it as a much different person, so I don't think it's a great predictor of scores. If she hasn't yet, I highly recommend your SIL take a proctored practice exam. Kaplan and others offer them pretty regularly for free.

This might sound snobbish but I don't think law school is worth it unless you go to a top 14 school (exceptions if you know for sure you want to practice in a very specific small/medium market and/or get a full ride to a school just outside the T14). It's definitely not worth it if there isn't a specific law job you want after graduation. You need to know you want to be a lawyer, and what that will really entail.

There are more lawyers than lawyer jobs, and most hiring organizations (especially the big law firms that pay enough for you to repay your loans) care wayy too much about where you went to school. Most do almost all of their hiring through on campus recruiting and they only go to the very top schools. The USNWR has consistently ranked 14 schools as the "elite" and it carries a ton of weight to be in that club. It may not be right, but it's true. Things are slightly better at non profits and government jobs, but it still matters and you get much better opportunities to build a public interest resume and get good mentors at the top schools than most regional schools.

That being said, it is COMPLETELY worth it to pay for the very best test prep you can get. I did Kaplan and they were great for me. Do whatever it takes to find the $2-3000 to cover the class. This is pretty much the only time I would ever consider financing something by credit card if you have no other choice and you realistically think you can score high enough to get at least in the upper 160s with their help. If you're already getting in the 160s do it anyway - it may pay for your tuition. It's going to pay you back thousands of times over. I credit Kaplan with my full ride to a top-ten school, which landed me my dream job.

As for parents talking her out of it - probably a bad idea. However! Have her check out the forums at top-law-schools.com. They can be intimidating but there is a lot of data there about where people get in, and what they're able to do afterwards (and with how much debt). It's not a pretty picture for most people and it might be a good reality check that isn't you or someone else "denying her dream."

This is the other reason I think it's kind of crazy for SIL in to be considering this path... she has no particular interest in any type of law/law-related job and does not seem to be able to articulate what she would do with a law degree. She just likes the idea of it. I just feel like all the factors point to this isn't the right path for her.

Yeah, if she isn't going to work in the legal field, I would definitely say not to go to law school. I loved law school, didn't enjoy the big firm job making 6 figures in a big city I had straight out of school, and couldn't find a legal job in a smaller town because all the employers wanted 7-10 years of experience.

So, I got out of legal field and started to look for a different job. I faced nothing but road blocks at every turn. Employers didn't believe I would stay with them (they thought I was biding time until a legal job came along) and wouldn't hire me. I was specifically told I was over qualified for the only jobs I was actually qualified to do, and that meant I wasn't a good fit. It was a nightmare.

To find a job, I had to go to a temp agency and temp my way into a permanent job in order to prove I was going to stay and would be happy working my way up from entry level. Only now, almost 8 years with my company, is the fact I have a law degree seen as a benefit to my employer to the point they want to see how they can better utilize me. It was a long, hard road to get to this point.

Law school is not worth it, especially in today's job climate, unless you have a specific idea of how it will be utilized in the future. It can just over qualify you for other jobs that you actually want where law is not the focus. It especially seems to scare off non-legal related employers, at least in my experience. That is definitely something for her to consider.

ginnybinny17 · June 2015

tbh I think it kind of depends. Some schools put more of an emphasis on high GPAs -- Berkeley comes to mind on that one, and I think NYU is a little more forgiving with GPAs. Northwestern, as long as you have job experience. Other school put more of a heavy emphasis on LSAT scores -- Chicago, UVA, Penn. Having a big lower of a GPA is less of a detractor there as long as your LSAT is great.

In other years, some schools just want high GPAs or LSATs to boost their ratings. For example, the year that I got into my school (a high LSAT school that doesn't care as much about GPAs), I managed to squeeze in with a bottom 25% LSAT and a top 75% GPA. I was pretty shocked, but it turn out that a lot of people got in with similar stats that year when in past years not as many people with those stats did. My school wanted to boost its GPA stat that year and I lucked out.

But what I tell people as far as "worth it" goes, even if it sounds kind of elitist -- it's worth it, I think, if you can get into a top 10 school for whatever price, although that's still scary and a big big risk. Top 10-14, I'd want at least a half scholarship. Any lower than that and I'd want a full scholarship. Otherwise the debt is overwhelming and the opportunities to pay it back are way too low for the risk.

Other thing to consider -- if you go to a law school outside the T-14, you're basically region-bound. Law schools outside the T-14, for the vast majority of folks who attend, are regional. I didn't attend UCLA or Vandy because I didn't want to stay in California or Nashville, and there was a good chance I'd have to if I went there. The T-14 can be more forgiving in terms of where you can go afterwards, although ofc it still skews heavy towards the closest market (DC for UVA and Georgetown, Midwest for Northwestern and Chicago, etc etc.).

I loved law, I love my job, and it's a high-enough paying job that even though I took out full loans, I'm very comfortable. But I recognize the risk that I took, and even now I can't really believe I took it (or that it was smart of me to take it, no matter the result).

Seconding the suggestion to check out top-law-schools.com. People there are MEGA harsh, but it's necessary.

I didn't do any LSAT prep and I regret it. I wish I would have taken a course. I got into a dream school of mine but it feels like it was luck, and I got rejected from a lot of places in the process. Prep prep prep. I've heard good things from friends about Kaplan but I can't speak to it personally.

Lawyer/Law School Knotties!

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