Ultimata

tigerlily6 · January 2016

I have a few close friends and relatives in situations where they've been in long term relationships, communicated they want to get engaged to their SOs by a certain point in their lives, and now are feeling anxious or depressed because their SOs haven't seemed to do anything.

I was with FI for 5 years before we got engaged. I certainly expressed to him somewhere early along the line that if I was going to plan my life with somebody, I expected marriage to be in the equation. However, I never gave an ultimatum that I needed a proposal "by the time I'm x age" or "after we've been dating x years". I generally feel like that is a bad idea, since it may pressure your partner into proposing when they really aren't emotionally ready for it. FI and I arrived at the same emotional place around the same time, thankfully. We didn't have a very traditional proposal, however, so much as a mutual conversation agreeing that we wanted to be married, and were thus engaged.

However, wondering what others' thoughts are, and if you think there is ever a situation in which it is right to put your foot down and basically say "You have X amount of time to confirm that you want to marry me, or else I'm walking."

ShesSoCold · January 2016

http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/comment/7749523#Comment_7749523

tigerlily6 · January 2016

Oops! Sorry to bring up an old topic. Thank you for the thread link, @ShesSoCold !

ShesSoCold · January 2016

tigerlily6 said:

Oops! Sorry to bring up an old topic. Thank you for the thread link, @ShesSoCold !

Oh no worries! I just read your post and thought, "hmmm...didn't we just talk about this?". Nothing wrong with revisiting topics.

tigerlily6 · January 2016

It's been weighing on my mind a bit as I think of one friend, especially. IMHO, her SO is not very good for her, but I don't know him that well and don't want to butt in where I ought not to do so. He has had trouble getting and holding onto basic jobs, so they basically live off her dime. She bought them a house. She is pregnant with their first baby. He has a child from a previous relationship that she is helping to raise very affectionately. She really wants to get married to him, and recently told him she needed to get a proposal over the holidays. He didn't deliver. Now the question is whether she will follow through with her ultimatum or not.

lyndausvi · January 2016

I think I was OOT when the other thread was created.

I think everyone should share their life goals with their partners. If you are meant to be then you should be working towards those goals together.

The problem becomes some people are in relationships with people who have different goals and/or time periods. Yet they refuse to face the facts. Then they end up living together, maybe have a kid and it makes it hard to just leave.

Ultimatums do NOT fix those types of relationships. Sadly, has long as they have blinders on it's hard to show a friend/family member they are not in a good relationship.

note - not being in a good relationship doesn't mean it's an abusive relationship. If you do not have the same basic goals, then it's not a good fit. Time to move on. Yeah, it's scary, but you are often better off in the long run.

SP29 · January 2016

I'm not one for ultimatums- but if you are going to deliver one, you better be prepared to follow through, or what was the point?

@tigerlily6 I don't think you should step in to your friends relationship, except to be a supportive friend. The relationship doesn't sound abusive, just sounds like a bad fit. The fact that your friend gave the ultimatum, it didn't happen, and now she's left where she was before.... really this is her decision to make. It's up to her to put on the big girl panties and realize this is not a good relationship for her, and possibly leave it.

There are deal breakers, for sure, which might cross the line into an ultimatum. There are things that are important to one person that need to be made very clear. But this all comes down to communication, including the deal breaker situation. I think a blanket "You need to do X by Y date" ultimate is a bit, I don't know, ?pointless. What does it achieve? And are *you* as the giver of the ultimatum prepared to follow through with what you said?

I have friends who have been together since high school. They have lived together since after university and are now looking to buy a house together. She doesn't want to get married- refuses marriage entirely. He originally wanted to get married, and had said he wanted to be married if they had children. Time has passed, discussions have happened, and he is now OK with them not get married and they will proceed with their lives as it comes. It's not that she doesn't want him, or a family, she doesn't want marriage (for whatever reason). I don't consider them any less serious than DH and I. Again- they communicated, shared their dreams and fears, met on the same page.

tigerlily6 · January 2016

I agree that an ultimatum is usually not a solution to help people grow in relationship. I feel for people who are on very different timelines, though, who are otherwise quite compatible.

One place FI and I struggled was saying "I love you." I was ready at 6 months. It took him 16, and only then after I told him I needed a break to reevaluate if I was getting what I needed from our relationship. He knew I had been ready at 6 months and I said I would wait until he was ready. But at 16 months, I made it clear that I was not waiting indefinitely. He had had time to let his thoughts and feelings about me gestate for as long as it takes a woman to carry a pregnancy to term. If he still wasn't ready, I felt hurt and did not feel like this kind of relationship was healthy for me. So I told him I needed a short break, told him I'd talk with him in a week to figure things out after we both had space to think, and left to go visit friends. After we had taken a week apart, we got together and he explained that he was sorry, and that he had NEVER said "I love you" to a girlfriend before, because he valued the idea of love very much, and so saying it was something kind of scary for him. However, even though it was scary for him, and he kind of sucked at expressing affection verbally, I meant very much to him, and the thought of not having me in his life, and especially the thought of causing me emotional pain made him so sad and upset that he decided that if he had been saving the words "I love you" for anybody, it was me.

It was not the ideal, unprompted "I love you" that I had wanted from him months earlier, but I knew him well enough to know it was sincere, and that if he did not mean it, he would not be the sort of guy to let anybody make him admit anything.

He now says it multiple times a day to me, and confesses he needed some pressure to realize that he had been withholding and timid about communicating three very important words. He had put the idea of being in love on such a fantasy pedestal that it took some reality to give him some common sense. But once he had ripped the band-aid off, so to speak, he was on board all the way. He was the one to initiate talk of marriage, so he certainly has conviction about his feelings for me now, and we are happily on the same page emotionally.

I think that is the place where it can be tricky, though. When does communicating to your partner "Hey, I REALLY need this kind of validation, and if I can't get it, that's really not fair for me" become a situation of duress rather than an admonition?

ETA for spelling.

Heffalump · January 2016

I missed the old thread too.

I agree with @lyndausvi, both people definitely need to be on the same page. DH and I actually "dated" for 7 years before we got engaged, but we knew we were headed that way, it was a just a formality. We were working to start our careers, going to graduate school, relocated, bought a house. We had a lot going on, so it was sort of "one of these days we'll get around to making it official and throwing a party," but it wasn't a huge priority for either of us. So it would drive me crazy when people (older relatives, mostly) would ask "Do you think he's going to propose? Do you he'll pop the question soon?" Like I had no say in the whole thing, I was just pining for a proposal. It was like "Let me deal with fixing the water line under the laundry room floor (there were jackhammers involved), paying for my last semester of business school, and flying to his grandmother's funeral, and then we can talk rings and hors d'oeuvres and dresses."

OTOH, DH's best man and one of my bridesmaids were dating forever. They had been together longer than DH and me, and BM made it very clear that she was "waiting for him to be ready for marriage." Best Man was kind of vague about the whole thing, which was a red flag, plus he had expressed to DH privately that he didn't think she was The One. She issued a couple of ultimatums, he did nothing, they stayed in a holding pattern. Finally she said her dad had given her money for him to buy a ring, and it was now or never. He opted for never, they broke up. She spent so many years with this guy, and they never really wanted the same thing from the relationship. It was sad.

tigerlily6 · January 2016

@SP29 , I admire your friends and think that is great that they are able to communicate about those things. I by no means want to imply that I think all mature relationships need to be expressed through marriage. I just know it is a good example of where conflict can arise when one person in a relationship wants it, and another doesn't. I think having children is another situation where this can happen. The best route, of course, is to have conversations about these things early on, but people may change opinions over time, so it is good to revisit those conversations regularly, I think.

I have no intention of getting into my friend's situation. It is on her to determine what is best. I just feel for her, since she's got some hard decisions to make. I have another friend who communicated to her boyfriend that she would really like to be married before she turns 30 (I don't necessarily get the "by X age" thing, but they've been together about 3 years now). It wasn't necessarily an ultimatum, where she said it was a deal breaker if it doesn't happen. But still. She's 29 now, and he hasn't brought up talk of marriage for a long time, and she has been feeling pretty low about it. She asked me what I thought she should do, and I really wasn't sure what to counsel except that she talk with him about it honestly and re-stress how she really values getting married soon.

More than anything, just curious about how other people perceive these kind of situations, and what their experiences with them are.

MrsMack10612 · January 2016

@SP29 - I am intrigued by your friend's flat refusal of marriage, especially with all the legal protections that can bring. Do you know why she feels that way? I certainly don't think everyone needs to get married, I guess I just see it if you are going to do everything but and, again, the legal protections about health, finances, etc. that it can provide, why not?

SP29 · January 2016

@tigerlily6 I know you weren't saying anything against not marrying

Just giving it as an example of good communication.

I think saying, "I want to be married by 30" is as pointless as an ultimatum. Why 30? What changes so much in your life the day you turn 30? I think WE, as people, make a big deal out of 30. It is really just another year. One's relationship doesn't magically evolve and mature the day both parties turn 30. Life is what it is, and will happen when it's ready. Yes, your friend should have an honest discussion with her bf about what she wants in life (I think your advice was spot on), but that should be, "I am ready for us to move to the next step" not, "I'll be 30 in a year, where is my ring?".

I have a friend who unfortunately had been dealing with some mental health issues that affected her job, and she was let go. Myself and her other friends think it a blessing in disguise- that job was not good to her. We tried to encourage her that this is the time to seek out something new and exciting. She was SO down on herself that losing her job would set her back in "life". She was recently married, but also had this idea that by 30 she wanted a house and to start having children. We all questioned why, what's another year or two? But she has been quite set on it- and that was sad. Fortunately she is doing better, and just started a new job

.

SP29 · January 2016

MrsMack10612 said:

@SP29 - I am intrigued by your friend's flat refusal of marriage, especially with all the legal protections that can bring. Do you know why she feels that way? I certainly don't think everyone needs to get married, I guess I just see it if you are going to do everything but and, again, the legal protections about health, finances, etc. that it can provide, why not?

I actually don't know. I have asked why, and she said, "It's just something I can never see myself doing", but beyond that, I haven't pushed.

My other friend and I tease her a bit, because WE want her to have a wedding

, but she always says, "No!". I have suggested if they aren't getting married, they should both change their name to a mix of both their names- which works out pretty cool. When I send them mail, I often use this new made up name to address them. I at least get a laugh out of it from them, but no progress

.

Her parents are divorced, I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but her parents still have a pretty good relationship, so I am less inclined to think that is it.

Jells2dot0 · January 2016

I gave several ultimatums to my ex. The first was that we be living together and engaged immediately after I graduated college. He was already out of school living at home. I got a job about an hour from his house and had spent the summer before my senior year commuting to his home from my internship at the place that hired me full time. The commute killed me and it took focus from my job. For some odd reason, I felt the need to be engaged prior to living with someone. So, it was either he move in with me and be engaged or break up. Well, I got engaged and we moved into together. We were engaged for two years prior to getting married.

The second ultimatum was when we started having problems in our marriage. I told him that he either agree to counseling or I was filing for divorce. There were a multitude of reasons we needed counseling, some of which were my own shortcomings. You can guess how that turned out since I'm now married to someone else! I immediately started counseling following the filing to work on myself.

lembaslover · January 2016

I think most people get so hung up on 30 because in your 20s you officially become an adult (21) and then for the rest of your 20s I guess you can chalk it up to learning to be an adult but by the time you're 30 you "should" be all settled. I think that is probably the norm for a lot of people but not everyone so people are putting unrealistic pressure on themselves to say I must be married by 30 or I must have children by 30.

What DH and I have is more of a 5 year plan where in the next 5 years we want to have a house and either have a kid or be TTC. For us that puts us as the ages of 30 and 31 so it just kind of fell in line with that. Obviously we are realistic and while that is our plan we realize we may need to adjust it, one or both of us could get laid off or we might not be able to have kids etc... That doesn't mean it won't be a bit disappointing to us if we reach the end of the next 5 years and aren't where we had initially hoped we would be but I think together we'll make it through to a new 5 year plan.

I think it's a bit unreasonable/unhealthy to have an arbitrary age cutoff, however I think it's a good idea for people to have a general plan for their next few years and where they want to end up. So if you have a friend who is really hung up on an age cutoff (it reminds me of when Rachel on Friends is talking about her plan to have kids by a certain age and realizes that she needed to meet her future husband like 6 months ago) then maybe try to encourage them to make a plan but for the things they can control. This could help if someone has a SO that doesn't want to commit, maybe if they both sit down and think about where they want to be in 5 years they may realize that they're only a year or 2 off and can make it work or maybe they're 5+ years off and it'd be better for both of them to move on.

[Deleted User] · January 2016

SP29 said:

@tigerlily6 I know you weren't saying anything against not marrying Just giving it as an example of good communication.

I think saying, "I want to be married by 30" is as pointless as an ultimatum. Why 30? What changes so much in your life the day you turn 30? I think WE, as people, make a big deal out of 30. It is really just another year. One's relationship doesn't magically evolve and mature the day both parties turn 30. Life is what it is, and will happen when it's ready. Yes, your friend should have an honest discussion with her bf about what she wants in life (I think your advice was spot on), but that should be, "I am ready for us to move to the next step" not, "I'll be 30 in a year, where is my ring?".

I have a friend who unfortunately had been dealing with some mental health issues that affected her job, and she was let go. Myself and her other friends think it a blessing in disguise- that job was not good to her. We tried to encourage her that this is the time to seek out something new and exciting. She was SO down on herself that losing her job would set her back in "life". She was recently married, but also had this idea that by 30 she wanted a house and to start having children. We all questioned why, what's another year or two? But she has been quite set on it- and that was sad. Fortunately she is doing better, and just started a new job .

This is someone the opposite, but the bolded made me think of a friend of FI. This man is 28, and has been with his girlfriend for 6 years. They own a house together and have great jobs. They both talk often about how they want to get married and have kids some day. He talks often about how even though he wishes he could ASAP, he won't ask her to marry him before he's 30, because that's "the appropriate age for marriage". I have no idea how an arbitrary number of rotations around the sun means that you are more ready to get married, but apparently it's stuck in his head. She is beyond frustrated and doesn't understand his fixation on 30 either. It's none of my business, so I stay out of it, but I don't get the 30 thing either...

themosthappy91 · January 2016

AisforA said:

SP29 said:

@tigerlily6 I know you weren't saying anything against not marrying Just giving it as an example of good communication.

I think saying, "I want to be married by 30" is as pointless as an ultimatum. Why 30? What changes so much in your life the day you turn 30? I think WE, as people, make a big deal out of 30. It is really just another year. One's relationship doesn't magically evolve and mature the day both parties turn 30. Life is what it is, and will happen when it's ready. Yes, your friend should have an honest discussion with her bf about what she wants in life (I think your advice was spot on), but that should be, "I am ready for us to move to the next step" not, "I'll be 30 in a year, where is my ring?".

I have a friend who unfortunately had been dealing with some mental health issues that affected her job, and she was let go. Myself and her other friends think it a blessing in disguise- that job was not good to her. We tried to encourage her that this is the time to seek out something new and exciting. She was SO down on herself that losing her job would set her back in "life". She was recently married, but also had this idea that by 30 she wanted a house and to start having children. We all questioned why, what's another year or two? But she has been quite set on it- and that was sad. Fortunately she is doing better, and just started a new job .

This is someone the opposite, but the bolded made me think of a friend of FI. This man is 28, and has been with his girlfriend for 6 years. They own a house together and have great jobs. They both talk often about how they want to get married and have kids some day. He talks often about how even though he wishes he could ASAP, he won't ask her to marry him before he's 30, because that's "the appropriate age for marriage". I have no idea how an arbitrary number of rotations around the sun means that you are more ready to get married, but apparently it's stuck in his head. She is beyond frustrated and doesn't understand his fixation on 30 either. It's none of my business, so I stay out of it, but I don't get the 30 thing either...

I have several friends like this too! As much as I don't think it's a great idea to set an ultimatum that you want to get married by X age, I think it's even worse to say you don't want to get married until X age for no real reason [particularly when you are in a relationship with the person you acknowledge you want to spend the rest of your life with]. What is the point of that? Not to mention it's kind of rubs me the wrong way as I feel like you are passing judgement on me for getting married MUCH younger than whatever your X is...

I think I'm more "ultimatum-friendly" than most people for the reason that OP described in her saying "I love you" example- there are cases when one person honestly needs something (a declaration of love, a proposal etc.) to feel happy and fulfilled in their relationship, and there's no shame in reasonably owning that. Too often ultimatums are used as emotional manipulation with no will to follow through, but when they are an honest expression of needs being unmet I think they can offer both people in the relationship a lot of clarity.

MrsMack10612 · January 2016

SP29 said:

MrsMack10612 said:

@SP29 - I am intrigued by your friend's flat refusal of marriage, especially with all the legal protections that can bring. Do you know why she feels that way? I certainly don't think everyone needs to get married, I guess I just see it if you are going to do everything but and, again, the legal protections about health, finances, etc. that it can provide, why not?

I actually don't know. I have asked why, and she said, "It's just something I can never see myself doing", but beyond that, I haven't pushed.

My other friend and I tease her a bit, because WE want her to have a wedding , but she always says, "No!". I have suggested if they aren't getting married, they should both change their name to a mix of both their names- which works out pretty cool. When I send them mail, I often use this new made up name to address them. I at least get a laugh out of it from them, but no progress .

Her parents are divorced, I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but her parents still have a pretty good relationship, so I am less inclined to think that is it.

Interesting. To each his own.

PrettyGirlLost · January 2016

AisforA said:

SP29 said:

@tigerlily6 I know you weren't saying anything against not marrying Just giving it as an example of good communication.

I think saying, "I want to be married by 30" is as pointless as an ultimatum. Why 30? What changes so much in your life the day you turn 30? I think WE, as people, make a big deal out of 30. It is really just another year. One's relationship doesn't magically evolve and mature the day both parties turn 30. Life is what it is, and will happen when it's ready. Yes, your friend should have an honest discussion with her bf about what she wants in life (I think your advice was spot on), but that should be, "I am ready for us to move to the next step" not, "I'll be 30 in a year, where is my ring?".

I have a friend who unfortunately had been dealing with some mental health issues that affected her job, and she was let go. Myself and her other friends think it a blessing in disguise- that job was not good to her. We tried to encourage her that this is the time to seek out something new and exciting. She was SO down on herself that losing her job would set her back in "life". She was recently married, but also had this idea that by 30 she wanted a house and to start having children. We all questioned why, what's another year or two? But she has been quite set on it- and that was sad. Fortunately she is doing better, and just started a new job .

This is someone the opposite, but the bolded made me think of a friend of FI. This man is 28, and has been with his girlfriend for 6 years. They own a house together and have great jobs. They both talk often about how they want to get married and have kids some day. He talks often about how even though he wishes he could ASAP, he won't ask her to marry him before he's 30, because that's "the appropriate age for marriage". I have no idea how an arbitrary number of rotations around the sun means that you are more ready to get married, but apparently it's stuck in his head. She is beyond frustrated and doesn't understand his fixation on 30 either. It's none of my business, so I stay out of it, but I don't get the 30 thing either...

Stuff like this makes less than no sense to me.

I think you're either on the same page about your relationship, or you are not. Either you both want to spend the rest of your foreseeable lives together, or you don't.

To me, deciding you want to spend the rest of your life with someone is a big fucking deal, just as big a fucking deal as the act of getting married. . . which in the context of this discussion on ultimatums is basically just a legally binding way of saying you want to spend the rest of your life with someone.

So if we look at marriage in that way, then I don't understand the point or logic of ultimatums. If you as a couple have already decided you are committed to each other for the rest of your lives, then why do you "need" to be married in 6 months or by 30 or by 35, etc? On the flip side, if you both want to spend the rest of your lives together, then why is one person seemingly dragging his/her feet over actually getting married? Could be due to financial reasons, but on principle I think you all get the point I'm trying to make.

It seems to me that people issue ultimatums when they are in relationships in which they are not actually on the same page with their SO's, not a good match, etc.

thisismynickname2 · January 2016

A couple things. I think a lot of people focus on "30" if they also want kids. There are biological myths and facts out there that women may have more difficulty having kids after 35. If you want to be married, enjoy your marriage for awhile, set up a house, and have a kid before your eggs start decaying, then, well, 30 sounds like a really good age to get married.
Plus, when there are kids involved, there are protections in place when you're married versus not married. So, for those who have kids in their life plans, marriage may very well become a huge part of the deal.

I feel awful for people who have marriage in their life plan and have a partner with no discernible/perceived "good reason" for not getting married. If two people are really committed to being together, one claims they're committed but refuses to marry like the other wants to... I just don't get what "not ready" means. I don't understand how someone can be fully committed to another for life while not wanting to make it legal (let me emphasize for no discernible good reason, i.e. finances). You're either committed to that person, or you're not. You're either in a place where you're sure they're The One, or you're not. Too often people will say, "I'm not ready to get married but I'm fully committed to you." No, you're not fully committed. Just say it, say you're not yet sure if the other is The One. Perhaps people are too scared to have those conversations.

I think I've heard every excuse under the sun from men my friends have dated. Few are valid in my opinion. It more sounds like the men wanted to keep their options open but didn't want to lose a good thing while they decided.

If someone values marriage and their SO isn't on the same timeline, I support that person cutting and running to find someone whose values and timeline is more aligned with theirs. It causes too much angst and too many lost years.

flantastic · January 2016

thisismynickname said:

A couple things. I think a lot of people focus on "30" if they also want kids. There are biological myths and facts out there that women may have more difficulty having kids after 35. If you want to be married, enjoy your marriage for awhile, set up a house, and have a kid before your eggs start decaying, then, well, 30 sounds like a really good age to get married.
Plus, when there are kids involved, there are protections in place when you're married versus not married. So, for those who have kids in their life plans, marriage may very well become a huge part of the deal.

I feel awful for people who have marriage in their life plan and have a partner with no discernible/perceived "good reason" for not getting married. If two people are really committed to being together, one claims they're committed but refuses to marry like the other wants to... I just don't get what "not ready" means. I don't understand how someone can be fully committed to another for life while not wanting to make it legal (let me emphasize for no discernible good reason, i.e. finances). You're either committed to that person, or you're not. You're either in a place where you're sure they're The One, or you're not. Too often people will say, "I'm not ready to get married but I'm fully committed to you." No, you're not fully committed. Just say it, say you're not yet sure if the other is The One. Perhaps people are too scared to have those conversations.

I think I've heard every excuse under the sun from men my friends have dated. Few are valid in my opinion. It more sounds like the men wanted to keep their options open but didn't want to lose a good thing while they decided.

If someone values marriage and their SO isn't on the same timeline, I support that person cutting and running to find someone whose values and timeline is more aligned with theirs. It causes too much angst and too many lost years.

The bolded - H did say it.

I was ready far before he was (but we were/are both reasonably young), and we had a series of conversations where his position was first, "I'm not fully sure about you yet," then later "If I'm going to get married, I know you're the one I'd marry, but I may still/always be too selfish to be good at being married" to "Yep, I'm finally ready." In the second conversation, he did say "I understand if you decide you don't want to wait the indefinite period of time for me to be ready, but I hope you do."

We both matured in the interim, so although it was painful, there was also some benefit to me and our marriage from the wait.

CMGragain · January 2016

At the time I became engaged to DH, there was another man in my life, but he was not reliable. He had given up his career in addiction counseling to go back to school and get another master's degree in English Lit. I would have married him (God, he was hot!), but he never asked. DH couldn't wait to commit!
Mr. English Lit showed up the night before my rehearsal dinner and asked me to reconsider. I guess it was sort of a reverse ultimatum. I looked at him (God, he was hot!), and asked "What are you offering me?" He hung his head and was silent. I said "DH is offering me everything he has - commitment, a future together, children together. I'm marrying him!"
Thirty years later, a newly divorced Professor English Lit. showed up at my mother's home and asked about me. Mother gleefully told him about how my husband adored me, bought me a beautiful home and took me on "luxury cruises" all over the world.
I told DH, and he laughed. "You'll never hear from HIM again!" was his response.
Never marry a man because he is hot.

tigerlily6 · January 2016

thisismynickname said:

A couple things. I think a lot of people focus on "30" if they also want kids. There are biological myths and facts out there that women may have more difficulty having kids after 35. If you want to be married, enjoy your marriage for awhile, set up a house, and have a kid before your eggs start decaying, then, well, 30 sounds like a really good age to get married.
Plus, when there are kids involved, there are protections in place when you're married versus not married. So, for those who have kids in their life plans, marriage may very well become a huge part of the deal.

I feel awful for people who have marriage in their life plan and have a partner with no discernible/perceived "good reason" for not getting married. If two people are really committed to being together, one claims they're committed but refuses to marry like the other wants to... I just don't get what "not ready" means. I don't understand how someone can be fully committed to another for life while not wanting to make it legal (let me emphasize for no discernible good reason, i.e. finances). You're either committed to that person, or you're not. You're either in a place where you're sure they're The One, or you're not. Too often people will say, "I'm not ready to get married but I'm fully committed to you." No, you're not fully committed. Just say it, say you're not yet sure if the other is The One. Perhaps people are too scared to have those conversations.

I think I've heard every excuse under the sun from men my friends have dated. Few are valid in my opinion. It more sounds like the men wanted to keep their options open but didn't want to lose a good thing while they decided.

If someone values marriage and their SO isn't on the same timeline, I support that person cutting and running to find someone whose values and timeline is more aligned with theirs. It causes too much angst and too many lost years.

@thisismynickname , I totally agree to the bolded lines. I think for my one friend, she definitely wants kids, and this is why she feels a time pressure. I still don't think picking a specific point in time (age 30) may be right, but I can understand feeling some biological clock pressure. FI and I would really like to have 3-4 kids. Since ideally there would be a few years between each, that means thinking ahead a bit. I'll be 30 when I graduate law school, but we have actually put it on the table that we might want to start trying before then. Crazy, but yeah.

As for the commitment thing, I think it goes one of two ways. Either one partner is, like you said, wants to have their cake and eat it too and trying to wait to see if something better comes along, or, on the opposite end, they may love their partner very much, but be overthinking the idea of marriage itself. I mean, I think it's great when somebody takes it seriously, because it it serious. But as you said, if you are already committed to spend your life with somebody, then I think they've passed the big hurdle. Legalizing that life-plan seems like it shouldn't be too mind-blowing of a next step, but for some people, I think they get hung up on the title of "married" without really thinking that, philosophically, they are already fulfilling the requisites.

Ultimata

Re: Ultimata

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