MIL threatening not to attend if horrible brother isn't invited

doyoucopy · February 2017

So honestly, I really need to vent and see what you ladies think we should do/how I can make peace with this.

My 31-year-old fiance has four uncles on his mom's side. They all ran the family business started by his grandpa up until last year—when the youngest brother and president of the company (we'll call him X) finally, after years of terrible business practices, ran it into the ground and sold it.

This involves us because my fiance was working there at the time. His uncle X constantly demeaned him, withholding simple information so my fiance would look stupid in front of customers, and generally had a nasty, condescending attitude toward him. On top of all this, my fiance was renting a space for his business in their factory. Once his mom confided the business was going to sell, my fiance asked uncle X to let him know how much time he'd have to move his business out. Uncle X never responded, going behind my fiance's back to almost get him kicked out with nowhere to go (we found a place to rent last-minute).

Okay. This is all background. Ultimately, it boils down to the condescension, the conniving attitude, and now, the financial ruin of his other brothers, sister and 92-year-old mother. He's a terrible, terrible person for so many reasons. End of story.

Now that we're actively planning our wedding, we had to address the fact that we aren't inviting uncle X. His mom became quietly enraged (scary, actually) and immediately said she "wouldn't be able to come then," though she later conceded she'd have to think about it.

I'm so livid and hurt (mostly for my fiance) this his mother could say this to his face. That she's choosing her awful brother over her own son, who did nothing to deserve the treatment he got (and she knows it). Honestly, it's verging on creepy... almost like Stockholm syndrome. I'm afraid to know the reasons why she's so unfailing devoted to her brother, who treats her like a child and has her coming home from work crying. But that's another facet to this story.

Ultimately, we're standing firm on our decision, but I have so much anxiety, and not just for my wedding. If she does decline to come, my fiance says he's permanently ending his relationship with her (and who could blame him?). His dad and sisters (as well as my family) totally support our decision, and won't forgive her if she sides with her brother over her son. As you can see, the repercussions of this debacle will be much longer lived than just our wedding day.

I'm sorry this is just a big rant. I know what we HAVE to do, but I don't know how to process the possibility of losing his mom forever.

OliveOilsMom · February 2017

doyoucopy said:

So honestly, I really need to vent and see what you ladies think we should do/how I can make peace with this.

My 31-year-old fiance has four uncles on his mom's side. They all ran the family business started by his grandpa up until last year—when the youngest brother and president of the company (we'll call him X) finally, after years of terrible business practices, ran it into the ground and sold it.

This involves us because my fiance was working there at the time. His uncle X constantly demeaned him, withholding simple information so my fiance would look stupid in front of customers, and generally had a nasty, condescending attitude toward him. On top of all this, my fiance was renting a space for his business in their factory. Once his mom confided the business was going to sell, my fiance asked uncle X to let him know how much time he'd have to move his business out. Uncle X never responded, going behind my fiance's back to almost get him kicked out with nowhere to go (we found a place to rent last-minute).

Okay. This is all background. Ultimately, it boils down to the condescension, the conniving attitude, and now, the financial ruin of his other brothers, sister and 92-year-old mother. He's a terrible, terrible person for so many reasons. End of story.

Now that we're actively planning our wedding, we had to address the fact that we aren't inviting uncle X. His mom became quietly enraged (scary, actually) and immediately said she "wouldn't be able to come then," though she later conceded she'd have to think about it.

I'm so livid and hurt (mostly for my fiance) this his mother could say this to his face. That she's choosing her awful brother over her own son, who did nothing to deserve the treatment he got (and she knows it). Honestly, it's verging on creepy... almost like Stockholm syndrome. I'm afraid to know the reasons why she's so unfailing devoted to her brother, who treats her like a child and has her coming home from work crying. But that's another facet to this story.

Ultimately, we're standing firm on our decision, but I have so much anxiety, and not just for my wedding. If she does decline to come, my fiance says he's permanently ending his relationship with her (and who could blame him?). His dad and sisters (as well as my family) totally support our decision, and won't forgive her if she sides with her brother over her son. As you can see, the repercussions of this debacle will be much longer lived than just our wedding day.

I'm sorry this is just a big rant. I know what we HAVE to do, but I don't know how to process the possibility of losing his mom forever.

I see a lot of "I" in this post. But your FI is also in agreement with you on the uncle, correct? It's not just you unilaterally telling FI that this uncle should not be invited because he's an asshat. It's a mutual decision with your FI? Also, are FILs contributing to the wedding at all?

Assuming its a mutual decision, your FI needs to talk to his mom. He needs to calmly state that Uncle X is not invited because he no longer has a relationship with him. That FI understands that mom is upset by this decision, but it is what is for the best for FI. And if mom does not want to attend the wedding due to Uncle not being included, she will be missed. FI should say that this day is about the two of you, not the uncle and if she is unable to see that and attend the wedding of her own son - there could be less of a relationship between mom and FI going forward. Don't treat it as a threat or ultimatum but more of a cause and effect.

After FI has the talk with FMIL, there is nothing else for you to do. Don't worry about anything else. If FMIL keeps trying to bring it up, just tell her that your decision is final and will not be changed. You also will not talk to her about this topic any further. If she tries to engage, just change the subject, hang up the phone or leave.

thefanciestbeckler · February 2017

Unfortunately, you guys can't control your FMIL's choices. My dad chose his current wife over my brother and I. We were adults when he and my mom got divorced. He verbally expressed to a family member that if he married the woman he's currently married to, he knew he would lose his children forever- yet that was what he chose to do.

This situation sucks, and I know it has to be hard to accept for both you and your FI. I recommend the two of you attend counseling. You can't control whether or not FMIL comes to the wedding, but you can control your responses. A counselor will give you great tools for how to cope should she choose not to attend and your relationship with her dissolve.

I'm sorry you're going through all of this.

ETA words

sparklepants41 · February 2017

I completely agree with @OliveOilsMom, OP. If your FI is in agreement with you and this is a joint decision between the two of you, then he ultimately needs to have the conversation with his mom (blood talks to blood).

If your FILs are helping to pay for the wedding, however, then unfortunately they do get a say in who is invited and you will either have to acquiesce and invite the awful uncle, or politely decline their money/refund them any money they have given you thus far and pay for your wedding yourself.

If they are not contributing to the wedding financially, then once your FI has this conversation with his mother, you will just have to stand your ground, not invite uncle x, and then don't bring up wedding-related conversation with your FMIL. If she brings up wedding-related discussions, you should quickly change the subject (we call this bean-dipping: "I just found the best recipe for an unforgettable bean dip!")

doyoucopy · February 2017

Thanks for your reply! I appreciate the perspective and the light it sheds on some of the issues I can clarify.

1. My fiance and I are in total agreement. He loathes his uncle not only for how he's been treated, but for the way his other uncles, mom and grandma have been treated. In fact, while we were in the early stages of wedding planning, I suggested (though I didn't like it) that we invite X to avoid this conflict, but my fiance was firm and I support him 100%.

2. My FIL aren't contributing to the wedding at all.

3. Thank you for this thought: "Don't treat it as a threat or ultimatum but more of a cause and effect." I like how you've reframed this, and I think it could help if my fiance chooses to address the situation one more time with his mom. I'm not sure she's thinking ahead as much as reacting right now, and we'd like to impress upon her the domino effect her decision could have. Like I said, it was a very emotional reaction and we'd like to inform her of the consequences.

NOLABridesmaid · February 2017

That is a mess. I don't think it's for you to make peace. They need a mediator or family counselor. This goes back before you ever came into the picture.

mollybarker11 · February 2017

doyoucopy said:
If she does decline to come, my fiance says he's permanently ending his relationship with her

This to me seems like an equally emotional over-reaction to what you're characterizing as her emotional over-reaction.

I agree with pp that your FI absolutely shouldn't threaten a relationship-ending ultimatum when he speaks to her about this issue. Instead he should express how deeply her decision would hurt him so that she's aware of the negative impact it would naturally have on their relationship going forward.

kimmiinthemitten · February 2017

doyoucopy said:

Ultimately, we're standing firm on our decision, but I have so much anxiety, and not just for my wedding. If she does decline to come, my fiance says he's permanently ending his relationship with her (and who could blame him?). His dad and sisters (as well as my family) totally support our decision, and won't forgive her if she sides with her brother over her son. As you can see, the repercussions of this debacle will be much longer lived than just our wedding day.

I'm sorry this is just a big rant. I know what we HAVE to do, but I don't know how to process the possibility of losing his mom forever.

At the end of the day, you're allowed to invite whomever you want to your wedding, however, that doesn't mean there won't be aftershocks either. Clearly, your FI comes from a close family with a ton of interaction with each other, healthy or otherwise.

Playing devils advocate here: Your H is putting his mother in an awful situation as well. I think the accusation of Stockholms is pretty extreme, but you have a choice to make, and you're asking her to disregard the feelings of someone she clearly isn't ready to cut ties with in exchange for attending your wedding.

Why is it fair for you to tell her, come or lose us forever, but it's not fair for her to say, I'm so hurt he's not invited I may not be able to attend? You're putting a far higher price on your feelings than hers at this point.

Right now you are presenting the situation as black and white - come and have a future with us or don't and you won't. You could always invite the uncle, thank him and ignore him the rest of the evening, or you could forgive his mom for making a hard decision that is different from what you want.

I agree with Olive Oils Mom on the wording for the conversation; but I think you're unfairly putting the ball in her court as to the future of her relationship with you. At the end of the day it's your H's decision to stay close or end the relationship and if he chooses to end it, that's fine, but the ball is in his court on that one.

Jen4948 · February 2017

I'm very sorry your FMIL is trying to place this burden on you and your FI. But you don't need to assume it.

If your FMIL is not paying for your wedding at all, she gets no say in the guest list.

It's very sad if she chooses not to attend over this, but your FI can point out the consequences to her and then follow through as necessary. Hopefully, she'll change her mind and attitude...but if not, you might be better off altogether if she isn't there than if she comes and pouts, scowls or otherwise uses the occasion to indicate how displeased she is that X isn't there.

Ro041 · February 2017

I would hold firm and not invite the Uncle. Chances are that Mom will reconsider and come to the wedding. If not, you have an answer about where her loyalties lie. Your FI might soften on his position that it would end his relationship with her forever (so maybe just encourage him not to make that decision yet).

doyoucopy · February 2017

Wow, thank you for all replies, everyone!

Just to address a few things...

1. I totally agree they, as a family, should seek mediation or counseling. However, they're a very non-touchy-feely type of family, and I'm guessing this confrontation was about as emotional as it's ever gotten between my fiance and his mom.

2. I know the creepy factor/Stockholm syndrome comment seems extreme, but without laying out every detail for you to peruse, it's truly, honestly disturbing how devoted my FMIL is to her brother—over her son, husband and daughters.

3. To address kimmiinthemitten: I would concede to your assessment of placing a higher price on our feelings over hers IF my fiance's uncle wasn't such a toxic, condescending, conniving (in extreme cases, criminally), hurtful person. He has no regard for the feeling or opinions of others; has made business decisions that have financially ruined his family while keeping himself in the clear; has made incredibly important business decisions without consulting his family; and has had the gall to recuse himself from wrongdoing because "he is a Christian." I'm sorry, but the audacity of this man is beyond reproach and I feel our reaction to and treatment of him is fully justified. None of this has been brought to the forefront in our discussions with my fiance's mom, however. We've been taking the "we" approach vs. the "them" approach (i.e., "We want to determine who we celebrate our wedding with." vs. "He's not invited because he's a God-awful human being.").

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm just so overwhelmed with anxiety, anger and sadness over this... perhaps even more so than my fiance. He's used to being his mom's last priority over his sisters and extended family. Honest to God, I can't tell you why this is. He's quiet, kind and hardworking... always willing to help when needed. He brings no drama (aside from this) to the family. Perhaps this is why interactions with him aren't prioritized; he's set aside because he's an easy person to get along with and doesn't monopolize attention.

I guess I just mostly need reaffirmation that we're doing the right thing in standing by our principles. Thank you all.

Heffalump · February 2017

This is all excellent advice above. I will just add that while of course you love your FI and want to support him, you don't have to make all of his battles your own. Sometimes it's better to just stay out of it, listen to him vent, and otherwise MYOB. It's one thing to say "I totally understand why you're hurt/disappointed/frustrated" and quite another to escalate to "I'm afraid to know the reasons why she's so unfailing devoted to her brother, who treats her like a child and has her coming home from work crying."

My advice is not to worry about what this uncle has done to everyone else; the wedding attendance issue is between your FI and his mom. Work on supporting him as the two of them resolve this conflict, and less on how his uncle mismanaged the company or mistreated others. Not saying that you need to approve, just that it's not really your battle to fight.

kimmiinthemitten · February 2017

doyoucopy said:

3. To address kimmiinthemitten: I would concede to your assessment of placing a higher price on our feelings over hers IF my fiance's uncle wasn't such a toxic, condescending, conniving (in extreme cases, criminally), hurtful person. He has no regard for the feeling or opinions of others; has made business decisions that have financially ruined his family while keeping himself in the clear; has made incredibly important business decisions without consulting his family; and has had the gall to recuse himself from wrongdoing because "he is a Christian." I'm sorry, but the audacity of this man is beyond reproach and I feel our reaction to and treatment of him is fully justified. None of this has been brought to the forefront in our discussions with my fiance's mom, however. We've been taking the "we" approach vs. the "them" approach (i.e., "We want to determine who we celebrate our wedding with." vs. "He's not invited because he's a God-awful human being.").

I'm not challenging his awfulness, at all. He sounds terrible. Even if he was just luke warm bad, you're within your rights to not like or invite him. But for some reason FMIL has chosen not to cut ties with him. FI can end his relationship with X and respect that his mom hasn't.

Do what's right for the both of you, but at minimum hold off on any ultimatum or decision to cut her our of your life. If she really is the victim of some type of abuse, like you assert, you're cutting her off from a relationship she will need if she ever does choose to end a relationship with her brother.

ETA: The dynamics of a truly high drama family are hard to understand unless you live in one. Typically, drama is the coping mechanism they all know and understand. Your FH probably isn't his mothers last priority, they just speak different languages when it comes to conflict and since it sounds like he doesn't engage, he's just left behind.

*Barbie* · February 2017

Heffalump said:

This is all excellent advice above. I will just add that while of course you love your FI and want to support him, you don't have to make all of his battles your own. Sometimes it's better to just stay out of it, listen to him vent, and otherwise MYOB. It's one thing to say "I totally understand why you're hurt/disappointed/frustrated" and quite another to escalate to "I'm afraid to know the reasons why she's so unfailing devoted to her brother, who treats her like a child and has her coming home from work crying."

My advice is not to worry about what this uncle has done to everyone else; the wedding attendance issue is between your FI and his mom. Work on supporting him as the two of them resolve this conflict, and less on how his uncle mismanaged the company or mistreated others. Not saying that you need to approve, just that it's not really your battle to fight.

i2i with @Heffalump - you want to remove yourself from the discussion, other than supporting your FI. It sounds like he's worked out his path forward and is accepting that he may need to end (or at least significantly reduce) his relationship with his mother if she chooses toxic brother over her own son.

honestly, it sounds like it would be better for your H to distance himself from this part of the family and the associated drama - but that's really his decision to make.

i think you (as a couple) also want to consider future implication of this - if you have children, will his mother have access? will cutting off mom impact relationship with dad and siblings? (if his parents are still married and mom is not welcome, would dad still have a relationship with you guys, etc.)

charlotte989875 · February 2017

doyoucopy said:

3. To address kimmiinthemitten: I would concede to your assessment of placing a higher price on our feelings over hers IF my fiance's uncle wasn't such a toxic, condescending, conniving (in extreme cases, criminally), hurtful person. He has no regard for the feeling or opinions of others; has made business decisions that have financially ruined his family while keeping himself in the clear; has made incredibly important business decisions without consulting his family; and has had the gall to recuse himself from wrongdoing because "he is a Christian." I'm sorry, but the audacity of this man is beyond reproach and I feel our reaction to and treatment of him is fully justified. None of this has been brought to the forefront in our discussions with my fiance's mom, however. We've been taking the "we" approach vs. the "them" approach (i.e., "We want to determine who we celebrate our wedding with." vs. "He's not invited because he's a God-awful human being.").

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm just so overwhelmed with anxiety, anger and sadness over this... perhaps even more so than my fiance. He's used to being his mom's last priority over his sisters and extended family. Honest to God, I can't tell you why this is. He's quiet, kind and hardworking... always willing to help when needed. He brings no drama (aside from this) to the family. Perhaps this is why interactions with him aren't prioritized; he's set aside because he's an easy person to get along with and doesn't monopolize attention.

I guess I just mostly need reaffirmation that we're doing the right thing in standing by our principles. Thank you all.

I agree with everyone that you need to make your decision about inviting him, and she needs to make her decision about whether or not she can attend. No ultimatums, no threats about cutting her from your lives.

I just want to comment on the bold a bit; I know this has to feel terrible. Family drama like this doesn't feel anything but bad. But as hard as it is try not to let it cloud your decision making. Like someone said above, is telling your FMIL (or better yet is your FI telling his mother) that you will never see her again, that she will never see any potential grandchild (if you decide to have children) really what you want to threaten her with? I get you're angry and upset, and you are entitled to those feelings, but I would just caution against acting them while you are worked up. Try and take a step back and think about the ramifications of how you decide to react.

JediElizabeth · February 2017

I think everyone already has the most helpful responses covered, but I just want to add that you're not alone, and it really does suck but you can get through it and still have a great wedding.

I have an abusive (emotionally, verbally, rarely physically) family member who isn't being invited the the wedding. My mother is threatening not to attend unless she is. I'm devastated, but I'm also focusing on a few things:

1. I'm an adult and can make decisions about who I have relationships with. Anyone who makes ultimatums about that really doesn't respect that. If your FMIL isn't respecting your FI's choices, that's on her, not him or you.

2. Family doesn't end in blood.

I know I have FI's family & a lot of friends who support us, and although I'm trying to keep them out of the drama, I'm grateful that they're there and love me. Concentrate on the good, healthy relationships you have outside of this.

3. This isn't a family reunion, and no one is entitled to an invitation (with exceptions for those paying and SOs, of course). My family isn't paying for anything, so they're trying to bully my sister's way onto the guest list. They've gone so far as to contact my FI privately, and all he'll say to them is "I respect Jedi's choices no matter what." Keep your interactions with them on this matter that simple - don't give opinions and let them make you the "bad guy," but make it clear you're a united front.

Also, FI (a counselor) had supervision recently and was able to tell his supervisor all about this. He got really good support just for him coping with all of my emotions. Is there someone you can go to to get that kind of support - a therapist or mentor or someone? Sometimes talking it through to an impartial 3rd party helps keep everything in perspective.

MesmrEwe · February 2017

Coming from reasonably large family businesses on DH's side and my side, you're not dealing with anything new but you are dealing with something that is different from 99% of people's experience. Work/family relationships, no, no one's going to counseling, except you and FI for marriage prep! Yes, this is always a great recommendation for all couples because the only two you can really direct are yourselves (not using the word control here because the only person you control is yourself) and these issues/dynamics are going to find a way into your marriage and it's best to work on them on the front end. That said, you need to realize there's a different dynamic than the rest of the world happening. There's the business relationship where uncle is/was a jerkface AH, then there's the family relationship where things get murky. Ultimately, you have to make your decision and stick with it knowing there will be family relationship fall-out that only the two of you can decide whether it's worth those family dynamic issues. Take the business relationship out of the decision, this is a family relationship decision.

For us, it wasn't worth creating those rifts, it just wasn't (my jerkface AH relative specifically listed my family as "Predeceased" in his Will - js). Looking back, I'm glad I realized "they may be invited, but that doesn't mean I have to spend the entire day exclusively entertaining this one person with 100% of my/our time.". OTOH, not inviting him as "just another guest", would have really created a dynamic that I was the jerkface AH instead of him. Ultimately OP you need to decide for yourselves knowing the specific dynamics involved whether or not to say "gosh we'll miss you!" and get a larger slice of cake for the budget $$ saved, or ??? Ultimately you already know what the best answer is, you two just need to trust your instincts and be comfortable in your decision and yours alone.

ETA: the relative in question also sent a letter a week before our wedding threatening to sue for the family business...

MIL threatening not to attend if horrible brother isn't invited

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