I don't understand this person's problem...
Dear Prudence,
I’m a thirtysomething woman who works in a bustling downtown area of a major city. On a recent lunch break, I took a short walk down a busy thoroughfare and I accidentally bumped into a man walking beside me. I apologized and kept walking. As I paused at the next stoplight, this man (who looked to be in his 60s) asked me where I was headed. I said, “Work,” smiled politely, and hoped to end our conversation there. But he persisted, asking me where I worked (A store? A restaurant? No, and no.). He seemed perfectly nice, and spoke slowly; I think English was not his first language. He asked if I spoke Spanish, I smiled and said, “No, I took French in high school,” and then looked into the distance to encourage an end to our conversation. I was uncomfortable, and I am sure it was visually apparent. The light turned green, and I walked away quickly.
On the one hand, I can’t help but feel I was terribly rude when this fellow was only attempting to engage with me in harmless chatter. I’m a fairly introverted individual, and I honestly detest making small talk with strangers—be it a fellow on the street or a teller at my local bank. On the other hand, I believe that often men make demands on strange women’s attentions and ask invasive questions. What do you think? Should I have been kinder to this gentleman, who in the bright light of day, on the busiest boulevard in my city, posed me no risk?
—Zipped Lips
Re: I don't understand this person's problem...
I can understand the desire to try to walk fast and remove yourself from the situation but don't look for harm when you have no proof of it.
Ignore and let it go.
I don't think she was rude. But I also don't think he was rude in asking basic questions. Maybe he was trying to hit on her. Maybe he's a friendly person who likes to chit-chat and/or was trying to practice his conversational English. I don't think his motivation matters. There was nothing offensive in his questions, though I definitely don't blame her for not being more specific on where she worked.
I was really put off by this phrase "often men make demands on strange women’s attentions and ask invasive questions." I get it, LW, you don't like to talk to people. Especially strangers. But she's being offended by what most people put in the category of "casual conversation". And BOTH men and women do that. Humans are social creatures. It's what many of us do.
As an example, my H is ALWAYS striking up conversations with strangers he runs into. Men, women, groups...it doesn't matter, he's just friendly. He especially does it if it looks like someone needs help. For example, we live in a really touristy city. If he sees someone with a map out or just kind of looking lost, he'll ask them if they are looking for a particular place and then point them in the right direction.
I agree, but I think men, more so than women, catcall/ask women to chat/tell us to smile and many times get upset when we don't. This doesn't happen anywhere close to the same frequency for men. So I get the "men make demands of women's attentions". Sure #NotAllMen, but many. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference (or you don't know ahead of time the difference) between casual conversation/small talk that humans do and a man who is going to get upset/follow/harass a women for not engaging in small talk.
Clearly thats not what happened with the LW, but it does happen for many, many women.
Like, this person can't stand at a stoplight (that's, what, 30 seconds?) and make small talk with a stranger? She admits she felt safe, the problem was feeling weird talking to a stranger. I'm not saying she needs to "smile more" (neither did this dude), but I don't see any reason you can't exchange pleasantries for 30 seconds and be on your way.
Is it off-putting? Sometimes - but mostly because I'm not used to strangers being overly friendly. Is it annoying? Sometimes. But I just smile, make polite small talk back and then put my headphones on or become engrossed in my kindle and the small talk stops. Not once have I ever felt the need to write a letter to an advice columnist over it.
@sparklepants41 and @climbingwife, omg, yes. Where I grew up in So. CA, it is also like that. That was one of my bigger, unexpected culture shocks moving to NOLA. My neighbors want to talk to chit chat for at least a few minutes, if we both happen to be outside at the same time. Which is usually when I'm going out to my car because I am busy going somewhere, lol. Strangers initiate friendly conversations all the time.
And it's not even that I don't like people or am uncomfortable around strangers, I just prefer to stay in my bubble and focus on getting my stuff done. I've adjusted but, even after living here for 15+ years, I'm still not very used to it and don't care for it. But it's also not that big of a deal.
My H, the Chatty Cathy I referenced in my above post lol, is usually really good at picking up on social cues. But I'll still remind him if we're going back to So. CA that people aren't used to friendly banter with strangers.
Yeah, it sounds like this woman has a very "east coast" mentality - i describe Philly in the same way.
In Pittsburgh, it's a lot more common for people to be friendly towards strangers, make small talk, hold a door, smile, whatever. When we lived in Philly, it was a completely different atmosphere - you didn't talk, smile, make eye contact, etc. with strangers. Living in Houston, it's a much more friendly environment - not sure if it's the "southern hospitality" - but it wouldn't be weird here for a stranger to smile and make small talk while waiting to cross the street, or riding in an elevator.
I get the comment about men making inappropriate comments/passes at women/telling them to smile or harassing them in public - but it sounds like she wasn't creeped out by the guy, just annoyed that he was talking to her. I don't blame her for giving vague answers, but i also don't see the big deal in making small talk with a stranger for 30 seconds.
It's funny. I notice it when I travel - how much people in other parts of the country chit chat with each other. It's just not something that happens here. But when I do encounter it, I'll oblige and just silently pray that it ends soon. I try to be as curt as possible. But good lord, I can't imagine ever being so bothered by a situation like this to write in to an advice columnist. Madness!
My H is also a chit chatter though, even though he grew up here too. He loves to chat with people, and it drives me insane.
Dating: 6/21/16
Engaged: 3/20/17
Wedding: 2/24/18
While anyone at anytime can be assaulted by anyone else, I disagree that this is a "classic example". The overwhelming majority of assaults (physical and sexual) against women are committed by people they know, and not strangers on the street.
Nope. Sorry. I needed to let this marinate because it triggered some serious anxiety within me.
Speaking as an actual survivor of rape, I find your comment extremely offensive.
My attacker was not a stranger on the street. There was nothing I could have done to prevent being raped. And just because a woman talks to a stranger on the street does not mean she has just made herself a target for assault.
You may not have meant your comment this way, but this is a classic example of how you need to proceed with caution when you make comments about sexual assault and how it happens.
QFT. This struck me as one of those chain emails where someone is like "READ THIS AND IT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE" and it's about using your keys like knuckle knives, telling people who try to help you to fuck off, and punching out a taillight when someone stuffs you in a trunk.....
It would be FAR more helpful to send a chain email to men, Sarah Silverman style.
Dear Men - please circulate this among your most entitled, douchy friends. Sincerely, Women Everywhere
I love this!!!
At the college I went to, we did have a rape awareness workshop that everyone was required to attend. I wish it had been this blunt and up front. But it did at least dispel the "stranger rape" myth and warned that, if a person is too drunk, they cannot consent to sex and that is rape. Sadly, that last one was a "shocker" for some people. For both men and women.
Believe it or not, I had a guy pull #10 because he was mad at me. Didn't use the word rape, per se, but that was the vibe I got because he had a real anger problem. I'd never met him in person. Met him on an online site. We'd chatted a number of times. Talked on the phone. And had set up our first date, meeting at a restaurant. Then, I guess he'd tried to chat with me when I wasn't home. But Yahoo Chat had shown I was online. So he sent me this tirade e-mail about how I was ignoring him, he knew I'd turn out to be a bitch.
I did have access to my e-mail from work and replied right back that I wasn't home and wasn't on Yahoo Chat. But I wasn't comfortable with the anger he had spewed at me over a supposed minor transgression and was no longer interested in meeting him. There could have been all kinds of reasons I didn't respond back to his chat within 10 minutes. His next e-mail was all kinds of sorrys. Please still meet me. Before I'd even had a chance to respond back, he sent another one that was back to Mr. Hyde. In that one he told me something like, "Whatever, fine. You're a bitch. It's just as well you aren't going to meet me, I was just going to f**k you anyway."
Then, hours later, left me a voice mail that he was so sorry for the misunderstanding earlier and was going to be at the restaurant at 7:00 like we'd planned. And he really hoped I'd show up. WTF!?! Dude, not even with a Secret Service detail.
My friend and I were out one day, and started talking with two guys, so we decided to meet up with them later that night at a bar.
We go, we meet, and it's clear my friend has a thing for guy #1. So I chat with guy #2 (Pete). Pete's choice of topics are:
-how he has fucked many women;
-how he walked into a bar, and THE HOTTEST WOMAN EVER was sitting on the bar stool. Every guy in the place was trying to fuck her, but she took one look at Pete, knew he would be an amazing lay, and fucked him in the bathroom;
-has had many STIs;
-has fucked many women he's met at the STI clinic;
-conspiracy theories he believes to be true.
**Trigger for indecent exposure**
We go back to my friend's place for a beer. Friend and guy #1 promptly go into her bedroom, and Pete and I continue our chat. I don't know how or why he thinks I'm interested after our incredibly gross and detailed conversation about his (made up) sex life, but I'm sitting there, he walks over and pulls down his pants and shoves his penis in my face. Blank stare. Eyebrow raise. Nope, sorry Pete, not gonna happen.
After a few minutes of me sitting motionless, Pete pulls up his pants. I know he started getting aggressive because I threatened to kick him out, and I know he said he'd expected we would have sex that night after all the drinks he bought. He finished by asking if it was because his penis was only 1 cm big when hard -- probably the only accurate statement Pete had made about his sexual prowess the entire evening.
My friend finally emerges, Pete takes all the beer in her fridge, and leaves in a huff.
My roommate's BF won the day by coming up with a new nickname: he is henceforth known as Millimetre Peter.
ETA: Pete clearly didn't care about my consent, and he felt pretty entitled to sex. But maybe he was taking tip #8 to heart?
It's like buying a woman a drink has gone from "I'd like to talk to you for a minute" to "now you owe me sex." Like $8 is all it takes for a roll in the sheets.
I plan on having these conversations with my son when he's older. About have zero expectations, respect, and consent. Otherwise he's going to learn from culture, which we know results in people like Millimeter Peter.
I don't remember what we learned about consent. Definitely nothing from my parents -- though maybe my brothers got a different sex talk than I did. In school we learned boys could be raped, and an erection did not equate consent. We also learned consent can be withdrawn at any time.
Millimetre Peter was pretty "normal". He was getting his masters, he had long term friendships, but he was replicating toxic masculine behavior that has been normalized to the extent that he didn't even recognize it aggressive or problematic.
I'm guessing you went back because you were watching out with your friend - because I would have had enough of mm Peter at the bar to ever go to your friends' house for additional drinks.
(also, i'm not saying that continuing to hang out with him justifies a dick in your face, just ew.)
You're also speaking to a rape survivor, hon. And mine wasn't a stranger on the street either. But now that i work for the courts, I know there are FAR MORE stranger on the street attacks than you actually hear about, and this letter is EXACTLY how they start. And she always says "He seemed nice, I didn't think he'd hurt me, I didn't want to be rude." So, yes, I'm very sorry to have triggered you or upset you, but you being offended is your own problem. And I didn't mean rape specifically, but also robberies start out this way. Men also try to get close to women in the event they have children who they can prey on (we just finished a trial like this). Maybe my job has made me a cynical bitch, but damn if I'm gonna fall into the trap I've seen too many times.
Dating: 6/21/16
Engaged: 3/20/17
Wedding: 2/24/18
I am very sorry for what happened to you.
I don't appreciate your condescension. I'm not your "hon."
And don't tell me that my being offended is my problem when you're being nothing but offensive.
Oh and "I'm sorry, but..." is not an apology.
Yes, stranger assaults happen against women, and that may be the "classic" prelude to one, but the phrasing in your original post didn't specify that. Regardless of what you meant to say, how it came off (to me) is that this was a classic example of how women get attakced -- it's not.
Stranger attacks are more often to be reported because it's what people think of when they think "rape". Police are more likely to believe a victim if her attacker was a stranger, and their individual bias and acceptance of certain rape myths has a HUGE impact on how the case proceeds, or if it is investigated at all.
Victims of acquaintance, partner, or date rape are unfairly burdened with proving their assault happened, and that it was not just a "miscommunication". They are further shamed into why didn't they do more to prevent it. Were you drinking? Wearing a short skirt? Flirting with him?
If you analysed the "rape prevention tips" that society gears towards women and girls, you would find that to follow each one, 100% of the time, is nearly impossible. It puts extremely taxing measures on women's movement and actions, while men (the perpetrators in the overwhelming majority of assaults against women) don't need to change their movement or behaviour at all. That's messed up. The paradox of these tips is that they basically say women are not safe anywhere, around anyone, while they are simultaneously responsible for preventing their own assault -- which is impossible, how can you prevent something if you are vulnerable 100% of the time?
So, when you say that by acting in one specific way (I.e. Ignoring a strange man's friendly conversation on the street) you are adding to an already loooong list of behaviours women are told to adhere to so they don't get assaulted. A list which prevents women from actively participating in society to the same extent as men, a list that revictimizes women because she didn't "do enough", a and list that makes people question whether her assault even happened.