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Voting - Question for those familiar with the process to register

I have a relative who will swear on a stack of bibles that because of motor voter laws and the ability for non-US citizens to get drivers licences that illegal aliens and Green Card holders can vote in our elections.

I completely disagree with this person but I'm also having issues proving how the registrar of voters authenticates that one who registers is a citizen with voting rights.  

Can anyone help shed light to help me educate this person with facts? 

Re: Voting - Question for those familiar with the process to register

  • I think the answer is in getting the driver's license itself.  While almost all states allow you to register to vote at the DMV (and in some states it's automatic), when you get a driver's license you have to provide a bunch of documentation now to prove your what citizenship status is (citizen, Green Card holder, non-authorized immigrant, etc).  Each state is different in what they require and what they require of non-citizens to get the driver's license.  But just getting the driver's license doesn't mean automatic registration to vote if you aren't an actual citizen.
    charlotte989875ahoyweddingmrsmitten
  • VarunaTT said:
    I think the answer is in getting the driver's license itself.  While almost all states allow you to register to vote at the DMV (and in some states it's automatic), when you get a driver's license you have to provide a bunch of documentation now to prove your what citizenship status is (citizen, Green Card holder, non-authorized immigrant, etc).  Each state is different in what they require and what they require of non-citizens to get the driver's license.  But just getting the driver's license doesn't mean automatic registration to vote if you aren't an actual citizen.
    That was my thought - but they are filed in different places aren't they?  W/ DMV or w/ Registrar for voting? 

    I may just be arguing with an older woman who is never wrong and wants to believe that the reason our state is blue is "all those illegals voting" but I have to believe that if this was a big issue then there would be people out there policing it.   That said, without a process to identify the steps in authorization it's going to be my logic against hers.
  • Well that would obviously just be craziness because people who have a felony cannot vote either (depending on state law).

    16 and 17-year-olds can get a driver's license, but can't be registered voters because of their age.

    There's a big difference between being able to get a driver's license and becoming a registered voter.

    People can also register to vote online (depending on state).  So I suspect there is a "backend" process somewhere that verifies a person's US citizenry before they are officially registered to vote and can go to a polling location.

    But, alas, I do not have "proof" of such things.

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    ahoyweddingmrsmitten
  • VarunaTTVarunaTT member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited October 2018
    Realistically, this is a state-by-state issue, so this is just for MO.  However, I think MO right now is more stringent that other states (b/c hello racism), so it's probably applicable.

    When you go get your driver's license they will ask if you are registered to vote.  If you're not, are qualified to be registered, they will register you there.  I'm not sure how it happens at the DMV, b/c I've always been registered.  So I don't know if they go straight into the Clerk's system or if they just fill out a registration card there and mail it for you.

    Qualified to register is the following:
    • Be a U.S. citizen.
    • Be at least 17 1/2 years old to register, and 18 years old by Election Day.
    • Be a resident of Missouri.
    • NOT be:
      • Incarcerated, on parole, or probation due to a felony conviction.*
      • Convicted of a felony related to voting or elections.

    To register to vote, all you do is fill out a card.  That card has to go to the correct County Clerk's office, who is in charge of tracking voter registration.  That's why there are registration drives:  it's people with the cards, they help you fill it out and then they hand deliver/mail all of those cards to the clerk's office.  You don't have to be present to have the registration completed.
    charlotte989875ahoywedding
  • VarunaTT said:
    Realistically, this is a state-by-state issue, so this is just for MO.  However, I think MO right now is more stringent that other states (b/c hello racism), so it's probably applicable.

    When you go get your driver's license they will ask if you are registered to vote.  If you're not, are qualified to be registered, they will register you there.  I'm not sure how it happens at the DMV, b/c I've always been registered.  So I don't know if they go straight into the Clerk's system or if they just fill out a registration card there and mail it for you.

    Qualified to register is the following:
    • Be a U.S. citizen.
    • Be at least 17 1/2 years old to register, and 18 years old by Election Day.
    • Be a resident of Missouri.
    • NOT be:
      • Incarcerated, on parole, or probation due to a felony conviction.*
      • Convicted of a felony related to voting or elections.

    To register to vote, all you do is fill out a card.  That card has to go to the correct County Clerk's office, who is in charge of tracking voter registration.  That's why there are registration drives:  it's people with the cards, they help you fill it out and then they hand deliver/mail all of those cards to the clerk's office.  You don't have to be present to have the registration completed.
    And I guess I wonder what the process is if someone just outright lies on the card.   I'll have to dig in on a local level because I have to believe that we have measures in place to prevent 17 year olds and felons from voting too. 
  • As an aside, my birthday is toward the end of November.  There was a voter registration drive at my college and I was SO excited to register and vote in the upcoming election.

    I wasn't thinking about the fact that my 18th birthday was going to come about two weeks AFTER the election, lol.  So, nope for me!  I had to wait until the next year.  Which happened to be a Presidential election year, so at least that was pretty cool for my first time voting.

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  • VarunaTT said:
    So, my understanding of this is that if the registration card comes in, there isn't a check done right then.  The voter is just registered.  I'm checking on this with someone now and will update, at least with info I know for my county, when I get something.

    So, here's where purges come in.

    I'm not sure how often they're required to do it (and it's probably different state to state), but the county clerk's office will start comparing their voter database to Department of Corrections databases, DMV databases, Department of Health databases (for deaths) and other software specially created to to "catch" voter database errors.

    As a segue:  voters trying to scam the system is an outright lie.  Congressional studies have found less than 10 instances in whatever year they were last requested to do it.  This is a right wing boogeyman that is sold to citizens.  Wrongfully purged is a far bigger issue and one not usually caught until it's too late.
    That was my theory as well.

    When I've had this discussion with my aunt her response is, "But it's right there on the form!!"  And she's right - but that doesn't prove much.   It just turns into her word against mine. 
  • thisismynickname2thisismynickname2 City By The Lake member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    I just checked my state- Illinois- and it requires two forms of identification to register. 
    If you then go vote in a primary, you just request a ballot for whichever party from the election judge and sign a form. I have no idea what they do with those signed forms later, but no ID is required (nor is the voter registration card you are mailed).
    To vote in a regular election, you, again, sign a form. No ID or voter reg card required. However, they look at your form and verify your registration either on a printed roster or on a computer. 

    So, if you wanted to commit fraud in Illinois, you'd just have to make sure you signed the form as someone who registered. Historically, people did that by going by the name of someone who'd recently died. 

    And by the way, Illinois is rock-solid blue for federal office by population number only, not geography. I will confess that in the debate about requiring ID to vote, I was never sure if the argument was about requiring ID at the ballot or requiring ID to register.  But at the end of the day, you need ID at some point in the process for IL.

    For funsies, here's some history on voter fraud in IL. Vote early, vote often! 

    ________________________________


    VarunaTT
  • banana468 said:
    VarunaTT said:
    So, my understanding of this is that if the registration card comes in, there isn't a check done right then.  The voter is just registered.  I'm checking on this with someone now and will update, at least with info I know for my county, when I get something.

    So, here's where purges come in.

    I'm not sure how often they're required to do it (and it's probably different state to state), but the county clerk's office will start comparing their voter database to Department of Corrections databases, DMV databases, Department of Health databases (for deaths) and other software specially created to to "catch" voter database errors.

    As a segue:  voters trying to scam the system is an outright lie.  Congressional studies have found less than 10 instances in whatever year they were last requested to do it.  This is a right wing boogeyman that is sold to citizens.  Wrongfully purged is a far bigger issue and one not usually caught until it's too late.
    That was my theory as well.

    When I've had this discussion with my aunt her response is, "But it's right there on the form!!"  And she's right - but that doesn't prove much.   It just turns into her word against mine. 
    Hers against yours and the reality that Varuna explained that this is an outright lie. https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2017/11/16/proof-of-citizenship-voting-laws-may-surge-under-trump

    And her argumdnt has nothing to do with Motor Voter laws or non citizens getting drivers licenses
  • edited October 2018
    @VarunaTT is right. Most states only license permanent residents (green card holders) and US citizens although some will also issue a drivers permit. Only 3 states (Washington, NM, Illinois) allow non citizens to get drivers licenses; so the first part about lots of undocumented people getting licenses is false. Some states do allow permanent residents to vote in state and local elections. 

    On the registering part; in most states you have to put down your SSN, your DL number or other ID numvernon rhe registration form. That’s the number that the board of elections checks against DMV, SSN, or other federal records systems. It’s not automatic in most cases, but there is a system to check. So even if someone lied on the voter registration form it gets checked against state and federal records. 

    Thats also how we determine the eligible voter population.  

    ETA: I just registered to vote last year in NY and then had to update my address when we moved. They made me enter my DL number or SSN on the form. This was for NY, but I had the same process in OH. Each state has different laws, but generally it will be some form of SSN/DL/or other state/federal ID number (like a non-driver ID card number). 
    short+sassyahoywedding
  • ShesSoColdShesSoCold bend over and I'll show ya mod
    Moderator 5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its
    I just checked my state- Illinois- and it requires two forms of identification to register. 
    If you then go vote in a primary, you just request a ballot for whichever party from the election judge and sign a form. I have no idea what they do with those signed forms later, but no ID is required (nor is the voter registration card you are mailed).
    To vote in a regular election, you, again, sign a form. No ID or voter reg card required. However, they look at your form and verify your registration either on a printed roster or on a computer. 

    So, if you wanted to commit fraud in Illinois, you'd just have to make sure you signed the form as someone who registered. Historically, people did that by going by the name of someone who'd recently died. 

    And by the way, Illinois is rock-solid blue for federal office by population number only, not geography. I will confess that in the debate about requiring ID to vote, I was never sure if the argument was about requiring ID at the ballot or requiring ID to register.  But at the end of the day, you need ID at some point in the process for IL.

    For funsies, here's some history on voter fraud in IL. Vote early, vote often! 

    OMG we've been joking about that for years!!! I'm still registered at my Mom's address and my sister was until a few years back (literally ten years after she moved and re-registered). She registered when she moved but she was still registered at Mom's address too. So we *could* vote more than once for several years. 
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  • Heard back from my person:  MO has a database that started in 2006 for all counties to feed into that runs address, DOB, and the last four of the social security number against a number of databases that however computers do their magic stuffs, checks against fraud.

    Person also said it mostly catches people who moved and re-registered so now they have 2 addresses.  Notifications are sent to both addresses to determine the correct one.
    charlotte989875
  • I just checked my state- Illinois- and it requires two forms of identification to register. 
    If you then go vote in a primary, you just request a ballot for whichever party from the election judge and sign a form. I have no idea what they do with those signed forms later, but no ID is required (nor is the voter registration card you are mailed).
    To vote in a regular election, you, again, sign a form. No ID or voter reg card required. However, they look at your form and verify your registration either on a printed roster or on a computer. 

    So, if you wanted to commit fraud in Illinois, you'd just have to make sure you signed the form as someone who registered. Historically, people did that by going by the name of someone who'd recently died. 

    And by the way, Illinois is rock-solid blue for federal office by population number only, not geography. I will confess that in the debate about requiring ID to vote, I was never sure if the argument was about requiring ID at the ballot or requiring ID to register.  But at the end of the day, you need ID at some point in the process for IL.

    For funsies, here's some history on voter fraud in IL. Vote early, vote often! 

    This reminds me of one of my favorite moments in West Wing that I just rewatched.  Toby hires a bunch of people to start talking to Josh at his polling place, asking if they voted correctly for the president.


    charlotte989875InLoveInQueensahoywedding
  • VarunaTT said:
    I just checked my state- Illinois- and it requires two forms of identification to register. 
    If you then go vote in a primary, you just request a ballot for whichever party from the election judge and sign a form. I have no idea what they do with those signed forms later, but no ID is required (nor is the voter registration card you are mailed).
    To vote in a regular election, you, again, sign a form. No ID or voter reg card required. However, they look at your form and verify your registration either on a printed roster or on a computer. 

    So, if you wanted to commit fraud in Illinois, you'd just have to make sure you signed the form as someone who registered. Historically, people did that by going by the name of someone who'd recently died. 

    And by the way, Illinois is rock-solid blue for federal office by population number only, not geography. I will confess that in the debate about requiring ID to vote, I was never sure if the argument was about requiring ID at the ballot or requiring ID to register.  But at the end of the day, you need ID at some point in the process for IL.

    For funsies, here's some history on voter fraud in IL. Vote early, vote often! 

    This reminds me of one of my favorite moments in West Wing that I just rewatched.  Toby hires a bunch of people to start talking to Josh at his polling place, asking if they voted correctly for the president.


    LOVE this scene! 
  • I'm a lurker but as a Political Scientist and green card holder I have some expertise in this area!

    Only citizens can vote (there are a few places that makes exceptions for local races, but these are very rare). The Moter Voter Laws were about making registration easier and more accessible, but don't link registration to getting a drivers license. 

    As a green card holder, my driving license is attached to my visa - meaning that every time I have to renew my license I have to show the DMV my visa paperwork and they will only renew my license for as long as my visa is valid, so even the DMV officials know you're not a citizen when you get your drivers license. 
    Where are you a political scientist?? (General field not trying to put anyone on the internet.). I left a TT position last year. 

    If anyone is interested here is a list of the elections non-citizens are permitted to vote in. 


    short+sassy
  • I'm a lurker but as a Political Scientist and green card holder I have some expertise in this area!

    Only citizens can vote (there are a few places that makes exceptions for local races, but these are very rare). The Moter Voter Laws were about making registration easier and more accessible, but don't link registration to getting a drivers license. 

    As a green card holder, my driving license is attached to my visa - meaning that every time I have to renew my license I have to show the DMV my visa paperwork and they will only renew my license for as long as my visa is valid, so even the DMV officials know you're not a citizen when you get your drivers license. 
    Where are you a political scientist?? (General field not trying to put anyone on the internet.). I left a TT position last year. 

    If anyone is interested here is a list of the elections non-citizens are permitted to vote in. 


    I'm at a LAC - my research area is International Relations but I've taught Intro to American Government as well. First year TT, although I've taught for a little while
    charlotte989875
  • I'm a lurker but as a Political Scientist and green card holder I have some expertise in this area!

    Only citizens can vote (there are a few places that makes exceptions for local races, but these are very rare). The Moter Voter Laws were about making registration easier and more accessible, but don't link registration to getting a drivers license. 

    As a green card holder, my driving license is attached to my visa - meaning that every time I have to renew my license I have to show the DMV my visa paperwork and they will only renew my license for as long as my visa is valid, so even the DMV officials know you're not a citizen when you get your drivers license. 
    Where are you a political scientist?? (General field not trying to put anyone on the internet.). I left a TT position last year. 

    If anyone is interested here is a list of the elections non-citizens are permitted to vote in. 


    I'm at a LAC - my research area is International Relations but I've taught Intro to American Government as well. First year TT, although I've taught for a little while
    I did Comparative Courts research and my husband was in IR. We both left academia for industry jobs in the last few years after 4 on the TT. 

    Hope your first year year is going well!
    littlestmonkey
  • ILoveBeachMusicILoveBeachMusic Indiana member
    Sixth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    When I renewed my driver's license this year, I had to show my birth certificate(or US passport), social security card and proof of residency ( two bills with my name and address on them). They asked if I was registered to vote - which I was. I have no idea how they check voter's list here in Indiana. When I went and voted today they checked my DL then had me verify my address and sign the verification. I also had to sign my ballot after I made my selections.

    On a side note, the poll person said that the lines have been very steady since they opened last Friday. We had to stand in line for 45-50 minutes to vote today. I have never had to wait for more than a couple of minutes in previous years. I hope that is good sign.
    short+sassymrsconn23
  • thisismynickname2thisismynickname2 City By The Lake member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer


    On a side note, the poll person said that the lines have been very steady since they opened last Friday. We had to stand in line for 45-50 minutes to vote today. I have never had to wait for more than a couple of minutes in previous years. I hope that is good sign.
    I usually vote early. I think I waited about 20 minutes this time, and I can recall the 2012 wait time was well over an hour. Can't recall wait times of other mid-terms though or 2016. The only reason I remember 2012 is because the line on the sidewalk was so long- a passerby asked the crowd, "Oh is there a book signing?" [It was a library.] And people were like, no, dumbass, it's voting. Haha. 
    ________________________________


    short+sassy
  • LondonLisaLondonLisa London, UK member
    Eighth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    I’m sorry but this is just terrifying. 20 seconds of googling clears this up very, very clearly. Xenophobia is really horrifying and, ironically, seems to be spreading globally. 
    VarunaTTahoyweddingmrsmittenGBCK
  • I’m sorry but this is just terrifying. 20 seconds of googling clears this up very, very clearly. Xenophobia is really horrifying and, ironically, seems to be spreading globally. 
    It IS frightening.   I hope this isn't directed at me.   My post was really asking for the method behind the system because of a lack of understanding.

    The person who believes this in my family has been an ardent Trump supporter so I have to believe that there may just be no more reasoning with her on a political level which seriously saddens me.




  • banana468 said:
    I’m sorry but this is just terrifying. 20 seconds of googling clears this up very, very clearly. Xenophobia is really horrifying and, ironically, seems to be spreading globally. 
    It IS frightening.   I hope this isn't directed at me.   My post was really asking for the method behind the system because of a lack of understanding.

    The person who believes this in my family has been an ardent Trump supporter so I have to believe that there may just be no more reasoning with her on a political level which seriously saddens me.

    TBH, there are so many people like that (sigh).  I'm not even going to say they are all Trump/uber-right supporters...buuuuuttttt, I do seem to run into it far more for the "right" side.  Perhaps that is just coincidence.  It is only my anecdotal evidence.  I know there have to be crazies who don't see reason on the left side also.  And I have very occasionally run into them, it's just so much less often.

    I've had a friend for years who fervently believes whatever crackpot theory "someone/anyone on the Internet says" if it furthers her Christian right agenda.  I have many times given her proof and evidence that she is "mistaken".  Or she harps on an occasional occurrence as opposed to it being "this" the other 99% of the time.  Sometimes I open her viewpoint...just a little...even if she still doesn't agree with me.  So I keep fighting the good fight!

    Though usually we mutually agree to not discuss politics with each other, lol.  But it still occasionally comes up and we have become better at acknowledging and respecting each other's opinion.  At least on the surface (shrug).

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  • LondonLisaLondonLisa London, UK member
    Eighth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    banana468 said:
    I’m sorry but this is just terrifying. 20 seconds of googling clears this up very, very clearly. Xenophobia is really horrifying and, ironically, seems to be spreading globally. 
    It IS frightening.   I hope this isn't directed at me.   My post was really asking for the method behind the system because of a lack of understanding.

    The person who believes this in my family has been an ardent Trump supporter so I have to believe that there may just be no more reasoning with her on a political level which seriously saddens me.




    no, definitely not directed at you at all. Just that the dog whistle of "illegals" that makes some people lose their rational minds. It is scary...
    InLoveInQueens
  • banana468 said:
    I’m sorry but this is just terrifying. 20 seconds of googling clears this up very, very clearly. Xenophobia is really horrifying and, ironically, seems to be spreading globally. 
    It IS frightening.   I hope this isn't directed at me.   My post was really asking for the method behind the system because of a lack of understanding.

    The person who believes this in my family has been an ardent Trump supporter so I have to believe that there may just be no more reasoning with her on a political level which seriously saddens me.




    no, definitely not directed at you at all. Just that the dog whistle of "illegals" that makes some people lose their rational minds. It is scary...
    Which is why we're all talking about birthright citizenship, less than a week before the midterms. It's a great distraction that I am hoping fails miserably.
    charlotte989875mrsmitten
  • banana468 said:
    I’m sorry but this is just terrifying. 20 seconds of googling clears this up very, very clearly. Xenophobia is really horrifying and, ironically, seems to be spreading globally. 
    It IS frightening.   I hope this isn't directed at me.   My post was really asking for the method behind the system because of a lack of understanding.

    The person who believes this in my family has been an ardent Trump supporter so I have to believe that there may just be no more reasoning with her on a political level which seriously saddens me.




    no, definitely not directed at you at all. Just that the dog whistle of "illegals" that makes some people lose their rational minds. It is scary...
    Which is why we're all talking about birthright citizenship, less than a week before the midterms. It's a great distraction that I am hoping fails miserably.
    I have heard that all of that talk is to get right wing voters to the polls.   

    At a personal level the most frustrating part of politics is listening to people who I love lose their damn minds because they are believing what the BS stuff is from POTUS or those who aren't journalists on Fox News.  
    short+sassycharlotte989875InLoveInQueens
  • VarunaTT said:
    Honestly, I think the birthright citizenship is more terrifying than undocumented immigrants.  I think it's about making anyone who doesn't "look American", i.e. white, have to prove their citizenship to have a child, period.  And that should terrify any American citizen.

    and I'll just say, I don't give one goddamn if people think he "can't" do it b/c X, Y, and Z.  The fact that it was even said in any amount of seriousness shows how fucking broken this particular strain of Republican is.  I can't meet anywhere with this type of noise, b/c there is a fundamental breaking of morals to me here:  I believe humans, all humans even the ones I really want to shove into a corner, have a basic dignity and respect and will not actually shove them into a corner; this subset does not.
    Preach!  
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